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Defender Medal Craziness

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11/30/2017 4:54:19   

If "Fires Over Oaklore" is going to be the only way to get Defender Medals, they should drop the amount needed to balance out certain aspects. For example, if I chose to start upgrading my Elemental Unity right now I would need to do "Fires Over Oaklore" over 7000 times! Instead of 500 per Elemental Unity upgrade, drop it to 20. That is still 300 total which is still a reasonable grind but 500 per upgrade is ridiculous.

So what does you guys think? Should Defender Medals stay the same or be lowered?

< Message edited by NarcissisticLee -- 11/30/2017 4:57:12 >
Post #: 1
11/30/2017 5:10:56   

Unity is the most powerful Trinket in the game.
This is not exactly a walk in the park. Neither is the Defender Cannon. (and it's upgrades)

Just wait for wars,doh.
DF  Post #: 2
11/30/2017 5:21:04   

Fires Over Oaklore was never meant to be used for the purpose of actually farming lots of Defender Medals though. It's more on for getting only a few medals in order to train Guardian without an active war, or if you're really kind of in a hurry, other items that are not Elemental Unity tier in terms of amount needed like the Escelence set and whatnot. To get hundreds or even thousands of medals, you're better off waiting for the next war.

I'm fine with the amounts as they are now since I feel like it'd be somewhat unfair, even though DF is a single-player game and one's experience by no means would affect anyone else's, to those that upgraded Elemental Unity or even the Defender Cannon the way they are now, the way they were made to be.
DF AQW  Post #: 3
11/30/2017 5:38:51   

I upgraded my account recently, and only became really cognizant about the Defender's Medal situation when I realized I'd have to wait for the next war to upgrade my Elemental Unity Trinket and grab the Escelense weapons easily.

Here's the problem: lowering the medal cost would be unfair to people who farmed for the items to meet the old costs.

Here's the other problem: offering an easier non-War-related quest to obtain Defender's Medals would also lessen the incentive in participating in Wars. People participate in Wars partially for the goal of winning, and partially for obtaining the Medals. Giving us a quest that gave Medals that wasn't part of a war would demotivate some people to fight in war waves entirely. And with less people fighting, that means us losing wars.

The tedium of the Fires over Oaklore minigame is, based on my observation, a deterrent against people farming from the quest. Because of the tedium of the minigame, farming from the quest is inefficient and boring, which serves as a safeguard and forces people who want the Medal Rewards to participate in future Wars.

I'm fine with the system as it is. We just need to be patient, OP, I'm sure the next war will come along in a few months. Hell, there was a war a month ago. It shouldn't be too long.
DF AQW  Post #: 4
11/30/2017 5:54:32   

Those are some good points. Remind me, do Defender Medals come in stacks? If not, it would still seem ridiculous.

< Message edited by NarcissisticLee -- 11/30/2017 8:36:40 >
Post #: 5
11/30/2017 6:38:34   

No, they do not. As ridiculous as it may seem though, it is doable. Farming for items in DragonFable has, for the most part, always been about patience.

< Message edited by Luma -- 11/30/2017 7:57:59 >
DF AQW  Post #: 6
11/30/2017 8:36:16   

Then there is no difference between doing Fires of Oaklore 7000 times or a War quest 7000 times. 7000 times is doable, sure. So is 70,000. That doesn't make either scenario any less ridiculous. I have plenty of patience but a line needs to be drawn when it gets to such a scale of grinding. I don't find it unfair, content used to be released far more regularly, hence more time and new engaging content to get Medals. If I can finish a mission that drops a Medal in 2 minutes, which I'd have to do exactly 7500 times for Elemental Unity, I'd spend 250 hours just grinding. Working, eating, bathroom breaks, sleeping not included. That's over 10 DAYS of nonstop grinding. It definitely needs to be reduced.
Post #: 7
11/30/2017 8:37:02   

Let are farming power combine FARMING HOUR X 20
Post #: 8
11/30/2017 8:57:16   
Da Awesomancer

There's a pretty big difference between farming Fires Over Oaklore and wars though.
It takes a whole lot less time to beat a wave and get a Defender's Medal than it does to beat the entire FOO quest for the same prize.
DF AQW  Post #: 9
11/30/2017 9:07:41   

I was writing a pretty long post about this, but then the forum glitched out and didn't let me post it, and I'm not going to rewrite it again...

But here's a summary: Defender's Medal items are made for the most dedicated Warmongers, and their prices reflect that. The EUD is mostly about the accomplishment of getting it. Sure, it gives some really neat stats for a trinket, but since when do you need to cram out every last stat point to play a game like DF?
DF  Post #: 10
11/30/2017 9:11:18   

@Da Awesomancer There is very little difference. The only difference is time and 2 minutes is not long. Even a 1 minute mission would still be 7500 minutes/125 hours/5 days no breaks of farming for Elemental Unity. I'm suggesting they drop the amount from 500 because as I've shown it's way too much effort for such little return.

@Zekrom5 The EUD is an upgrade from a paid item. Nowhere does it say it's for the accomplishment. Plenty of people want the best gear, no one needs to get every last stat, but it's something many of us enjoy doing. I'm trying to present a reasonable idea and your response is "who needs every stat". I could say "who needs to play DF"? See how pointless that is?

< Message edited by NarcissisticLee -- 11/30/2017 9:25:28 >
Post #: 11
11/30/2017 9:29:27   

Df is a pretty grindy game most of the time.
By your logic, Doom/destiny upgrades require DA, does that mean we should make them much easier to get as well?

Honestly, I dont see the requirements for maxing EUD as brutal as you make them out to be, they are not meant to be attained in an hour (300 DMs, as you proposed)
AQ MQ  Post #: 12
11/30/2017 9:37:02   

In the case of a war having a catapult quest though, the time difference would be significant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but people can do the catapult quest in as fast as 25-30 seconds, and in that regard, 2 minutes is long. Sure, the last war didn't have it, but I was personally able to do 1100 waves in less than a week, and I was lazy and didn't do more even though they didn't remove the Medal rewards right away. I'm fairly certain I was able to get 100 medals in a little over an hour since I was busy at some days of the war, and that was without the catapult.

Farming that much is never meant to be done in one sitting, or if in a war's case, a single war (unless you're Baron Dante, of course). I can agree to the fact that plenty of people want the best gear, but it's called the best for a reason. Good thing DF isn't a game where you necessarily have to min-max, but if you want to, get ready to put in some, if not a lot, of effort.

DF AQW  Post #: 13
11/30/2017 10:00:56   


There is very little difference. The only difference is time and 2 minutes is not long. Even a 1 minute mission would still be 7500 minutes/125 hours/5 days no breaks of farming for Elemental Unity.

People can easily get 2-4 Defender Medals from normal foot waves within a minute assuming you use a class with a fast nuke (more if you use supply grab or if you've figured out the best spots to click on while using catapults), which is a significant difference when compared to FOO.

< Message edited by Zeldax -- 11/30/2017 10:14:07 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
11/30/2017 10:11:56   

@1997p3 DF has never been grindy. The majority of items in this game can be farmed in an hour or two at most. Doom/Destiny items do not even require 500 items for both to get to their highest level, (what kind of comparison was that), whereas one upgrade for EUD does.

@Luma Even 30 seconds is over 3750 minutes/62 hours/2.5 days of straight playing for ONE item. If it only takes 30 seconds I think I could somehow justify that, but i can't justify 5 to 10 days of playing for 1 item.

< Message edited by NarcissisticLee -- 11/30/2017 10:17:03 >
Post #: 15
11/30/2017 10:23:12   

Doom/Destiny weapons do not require the same number of requirements to fully upgrade, yes, but they have one thing in common--they're grindy. If Doom/Destiny weapons required 500 of their respective resources to fully upgrade, that would be something else entirely, but they don't because DMs are different from those other resources, and DMs are easier to get.

As I said, farming that much isn't meant to be done in one sitting, nor maybe even a single war. Splitting up the time calculation would make it seem a little less intimidating. The way I see it, no one is actually obligated to get EUD at its highest tier, so if one does not want to put in that much effort, or if farming a lot isn't their cup of tea, it's not the biggest thing to lose out on. Take it from someone that's yet to fully upgrade EUD as well.

< Message edited by Luma -- 11/30/2017 10:26:23 >
DF AQW  Post #: 16
11/30/2017 10:25:20   

I've done some testing and found that for me at least, foot waves take around 35 seconds (this is from the war 1 month ago, where I tested all the classes, the rest I tested just now), Catapult waves 13(!) seconds, and Fires Over Oaklore 4 minutes and 21 seconds (but I'm terrible at the later levels of that minigame, so I get stuck all the time D=). On Foot Waves, I tested that I could keep it up for 20 minutes and for catapults for 4 minutes. So it's not like I got some lucky run and then took that number. But since you seem to be able to do FOO in 2 minutes, let's take your numbers for this.

FOO: 7500(DMs needed)*120(seconds/completion)=900000 seconds=15000 minutes=250 hours (So please don't do this)

Foot Waves: 7500*35=262500 seconds=4375 minutes≈73 hours (Already much better, but still ridiculous)

Catapult Waves: 7500*13=97500 seconds=1625 minutes=27 hours

Now, 27 hours is still a *lot*, but this is for those who enjoy wars. This would be easily doable in 3 wars if you're dedicated. Put up some good show on half your screen, the forums on half of the rest, and the game in the last quarter. Then time will fly, and you've spent those 27 hours in no time!
DF  Post #: 17
11/30/2017 10:35:04   

@Luma I wasn't responding to you. If you read the post I was responding to, you would've realized I was pointing out the unrealistic comparison between needing a Dragon Amulet and Defender Medals.

@Zekrom5 2 minutes was just a standardized baseline, not my time for FOO. Those numbers are very promising. I agree 500 isn't that crazy when done like that. Looking forward to the next war!
Post #: 18
11/30/2017 11:16:01   
Baron Dante

Honestly, the real issue is that back when we started getting into big DM requirement territory, there were two things that largely caused that.
One is that we had a LOT of wars. Because people enjoyed doing them, or at least a considerable group did. We're talking like, 6 wars in a year. Now that has changed dramatically where we have about 2 wars a year. Since FOO isn't meant to be a viable source for mass grinding, that leaves the players with about 1/3rd the time they used to have to actually get DMs.
The second part is that even after the grind was cut, a fair share of people (especially from the ones that tend to war like crazy, I'd say) wanted more incentives to actually war, beyond just doing it because it has to be done.
So as sort of a long-term goal for them, over time we got the Elemental Unity upgrades, and as an even bigger DM sink, the Defender Cannon (That's what, 13k?). They're basically items meant for people that had nothing else to spend DMs on (Though they are both some of the best Trinkets in the game, so...).
In a way, I wish we could have something like some sort of silly House item to burn DMs on. Like "I have this because I clearly have way too many DMs in my life" kinda deal. So... I guess bragging rights?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
11/30/2017 11:33:18   

@Baron Dante That's what you see them as, that's not what they are. They're simply items in a shop with ridiculous requirements. I totally forgot about the Defender Cannon. What with the reduced amount of wars they should definitely lower the amount then. Either that or make them rare because no new player (or someone just getting around to it, like me) will ever be able to obtain them.
Post #: 20
11/30/2017 11:45:30   

Now, what I'd like to see is more wars, maybe not 6 a year, but maybe 3-4? Because that would help with getting DMs, but they're also really enjoyable IMO. Also, I wouldn't say that it's impossible to get either the EUD or the Defender Cannon. You just have to either A: Be Baron Dante, or B: See it as a long-term goal. The second is, obviously, the only one that is realistic for us lowly mortals. But I, for one, don't see the problem with it being a long-term goal. But, as I said, it would be nice to make it slightly less long-term by making the wars somewhat more common...
DF  Post #: 21
11/30/2017 11:46:42   

@Baron Dante I think what we need is the opposite. Instead of cool, useless items to burn DMs on, I think we need more normal items with lower DM costs as prizes for people who only partially participate in wars.

Another option would be buying DMs for dragon coins (one per coin I suppose) or just give the same upgrades for DCs instead of DMs (just like Sielu's items, which are among the best in the game, can be either merged or bought).
DF  Post #: 22
11/30/2017 12:23:40   

You're not supposed to upgrade EUD and Defender Cannon all in one go (unless of course, you're a warmonger then knock yourself out)
By design, they're long term investments. So you have to commit yourself in warring to get DMs.

Even before, the Dragon Defender accessories (forgot the actual names) or the accessories that used DMs to upgrade were the best gears during their time since they were supposed to reward warmongers for their effort in pushing the war. But of course, they got affected by newer items and higher level cap.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
11/30/2017 12:34:05   

@LouisCyphere Regardless, what with the reduced amount of wars and the time investment/reward ratio, they still cost too much.

< Message edited by NarcissisticLee -- 11/30/2017 12:35:49 >
Post #: 24
11/30/2017 12:40:48   

Of course they cost too much because EUD is the best defensive trinket with a +5 All resist.
Like with every other "best" item, you have to put effort into getting it not just because you bought it.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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