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Why Archivist is a Tier 2 armour

 
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12/5/2017 14:37:01   
Winters Key
Member

Archivist is definitely nowhere near Tier 3, as suggested in this Tier list (http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22039708).

Here are the strengths & weaknesses of Archivist compared to Cryptic, which is a class grouped in the same tier:

Archivist:
+ Extremely powerful against bosses.
+ Celestia's Sorrow is pretty much a full heal.
+ Can deal lots of burst damage in 1 turn with Ultimate Orb Creation.
+ Skills deal a fair amount of damage.


- Cooldowns carry across battles, and in quests this is bound to make battles extremely tedious (and you'll complete them a lot slower in contrast to other classes, even when using the optimal combos - assuming you have them available). This can make using the armour a hassle in most quests (that aren't a single boss battle).
- The only stun within the class, Destroyer's Hunger, isn't a guaranteed stun.
- The only healing skill within the class, Celestia's Sorrow, has a 99 turn cooldown which persists between battles (Unless you change your armour). It heals 20% of your current health when attacking (Remember that 20%) - and if you finish the battle when using the skill, well, you've wasted it.
- It has no defensive skills such as a Blind/Shield (The only shielding move available, Celestia's Sorrow, has a 99 turn cooldown).
- The 'multi' skill, Wrath of Wargoth, deals 50% damage to enemies.


Cryptic:
+ Has access to a potential 700+ HP heal every 2 turns (50% chance, and that's if your potions have been fully trained). Assuming you have 3000 HP (which is a LOT, mind you) - that's still 23% of your health healed. Without a 99 turn cooldown.
+ Can deal a lot of damage in certain combos.
+ Has a 350% damage skill on a 2 turn cooldown (Rapid attack).
+ Critical bonus chance increases over time.
+ Has >3< avoidance moves, with the potential to block 10+ enemy turns if used in succession. If "Steal a Potion!" is used within these turns, it's possible to achieve a similar effect to Celestia's Sorrow without a 99 turn cooldown.
+ Useful in normal quests and boss battles alike. Has a "final" skill to breeze past enemies.


-...Not as much burst damage as Archivist (?)

With these points listed, I think it's pretty hard to say that Archivist is remotely as strong as Cryptic - and if you compared it to the other classes in this tier such as TimeKiller, Kathool Adept & Pyromancer (<A class that has a full HP/MP heal with a 35 turn cooldown), you'll see that it really doesn't belong in T3.

Now let's compare it to Necromancer, a Tier 2 armour (post-shroud nerf).

Necromancer:

+ Shroud of the Undead can potentially fully heal the class (or do a substantial amount of healing) if the enemy is strong enough. The cooldown doesn't persist between battles either. It's a guaranteed heal with no cooldown between battles (but with a 30 turn cooldown).
+ Life Tap heals 14% of your health and deals 14% (UNBLOCKABLE) total life damage to your enemy. It has a 9 turn cooldown and the cooldown doesn't persist between battles.


This class, already, has more survivability than Archivist (and maybe even Cryptic) - and that's even mentioning other skills such as Dark Intent. Regardless, let's continue:

+ Inner Will recovers 10% of your mana. The cooldown doesn't persist between battles, potentially allowing you to loop Inner Will/Shroud/Life Tap to never die in long quests (and have a LOT of survivability in boss battles).
+ Can potentially deal 1000 HP+ damage with certain setups, though with ~4 turns of preparation. The cooldown for this combo doesn't persist between battles and can be done multiple times in a boss battle.
+ Inspire Terror can be a guaranteed (1 turn) unblockable stun
.


-...Takes a while to get used to the playstyle (?)


Again, there are little to no disadvantages when using this class or Cryptic - due to how useful they are in normal battles and boss battles (Due to their offensive capabilities & survivability). Archivist, however, is naturally disadvantaged in almost every situation besides boss battles. We were hinted that the class would receive 1 extra skill, but honestly - unless that skill resets cooldowns and persists between battles, I don't see that improving the viability of the class that much.

For that reason, I truly believe that Archivist is low-Tier 2 (Above Zardbie, but below TogSlayer) right now - and really needs more than an extra skill to be viable.

< Message edited by Winters Key -- 12/5/2017 14:39:03 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 1
12/5/2017 14:57:44   
snakehulk21220
Member

archivist is a half finished class being called a full class, nomatter what verly or tomix wanna say about it, ill always consider it unfinished and its the only calendar im disappointed in, the weaknesses in this class are so many and its strengths are so limited that the class is one i never feel any urge to use.

it needs to be finished, but i doubt it will be because that would be admitting it was left unfinished
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 2
12/5/2017 15:25:15   
Greyor_42
Member

@winter's key

and here's why it's not a tier 2 class:

the tier list is simply how the class is acquired, and a general guideline for how potentially powerful said class can be. tier 3 classes specifically, are any class that is obtained via dragon coins, calendars, or by mastering at least one other class. thus, by definition, archivist is very much a tier 3 class. just a low end tier 3 class.

the problem with your "comparisons" is that you're comparing archivist to what is undeniably one of the STRONGEST tier 3 classes(cryptic), another one of what is undeniably one of the strongest tier 3 classes(KAA), a pure defensive tier 3 class that is designed entirely around survivability and slowly whittling your enemy down(pyromancer), and a tier 2 class that is effectively as strong as/stronger than a couple tier 3 classes itself(necromancer can actually be more powerful than deathknight, its tier 3 equivalent). that's akin to comparing, say, chickencow/dimensional transphaser to angler, and expecting it to somehow be a fair comparison for angler.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 12/5/2017 15:28:15 >
DF  Post #: 3
12/5/2017 15:35:12   
Winters Key
Member

quote:

@winter's key

and here's why it's not a tier 2 class:

the tier list is simply how the class is acquired, and a general guideline for how potentially powerful said class can be. tier 3 classes specifically, are any class that is obtained via dragon coins, calendars, or by mastering at least one other class. thus, by definition, archivist is very much a tier 3 class. just a low end tier 3 class.

the problem with your "comparisons" is that you're comparing archivist to what is undeniably one of the STRONGEST tier 3 classes(cryptic), another one of what is undeniably one of the strongest tier 3 classes(KAA), a pure defensive tier 3 class that is designed entirely around survivability and slowly whittling your enemy down(pyromancer), and a tier 2 class that is effectively as strong as/stronger than a couple tier 3 classes itself(necromancer can actually be more powerful than deathknight, its tier 3 equivalent).


--
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22039708

quote:

Armor Tier Breakdown


As there is always confusion with certain things, here's a breakdown of every non-temporary armor in the game and what tier they fall into.

For the purposes of this, a "Tier" refers to how strong the armor is in relation to other armors. This means that if an armor is "Tier 2" it is close to the strength of other armors of that Tier and is stronger than those below it. This guide is going from Strongest, Tier 4, to weakest, Tier 0. This will be updated when new armors come out so there's a general idea of where each armor is in the overall power scale of the game.


>>>
quote:

For the purposes of this, a "Tier" refers to how strong the armor is in relation to other armors. This means that if an armor is "Tier 2" it is close to the strength of other armors of that Tier and is stronger than those below it. This guide is going from Strongest, Tier 4, to weakest, Tier 0. This will be updated when new armors come out so there's a general idea of where each armor is in the overall power scale of the game.
<<<

--

Regardless of which Tier 3 class you compare it to, in almost every case it's still vastly outclassed.

Ancient Exosuit outclasses Archivist defensively (Focuses on healing/raising defences constantly throughout a battle, without absurd cooldowns).
Ascendant outclasses Archivist offensively, that's not even up for debate.
ACC outclasses Archivist offensively, and arguably defensively.
AoT completely outclasses Archivist.
Same with the other Calendar Classes such as ChronoCorrupter/Chronomancer/ChronoZ.
DL outclasses Archivist defensively and burns through battles much faster. With the special trinket, it outclasses Archivist offensively.
DK outclasses Archivist defensively (Dark Rite/Soul Reap/Garb of Undeath/Blood Tap either increase your defenses extremely well or heal you, and don't have an absurd cooldown).
--still typing this out. I'll edit the post once i'm done.

My main point is that it's the weakest T3 class, and Necromancer, a class grouped as "T2", is stronger than it.

I could even argue that Shadow Hunter > Archivist, considering it has a 2-turn "Final" combo without a cooldown or a high mana cost.

< Message edited by Winters Key -- 12/5/2017 15:38:05 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 4
12/5/2017 15:44:41   
Greyor_42
Member

@winter's key

quote:

My main point is that it's the weakest T3 class, and Necromancer, a class grouped as "T2", is stronger than it.


and necromancer is stronger than OTHER T3 classes as well. like, for example, pyromancer(has comparable defenses, and better offenses). should pyromancer be T2 as well, then?

then there's the fact that certain T0 classes are comparable or even STRONGER than T1 classes. so does that mean the the base classes should be T0 themselves?

fact is, i GOT that point. i'm NOT contending that point. all i'm saying is that it's NOT a reason to be saying that something's "in the wrong tier".


believe it or not, the tier list is nowhere near as accurate power-wise as ash played it out to be.

to quote something from the necromancer discussion thread when a similar thing was stated(that necromancer should be a T3 class as opposed to T2):

quote:

The tier only gave a general idea on how strong a class is. But depending on build and playstyle, a lower tier class can be more effective than a higher tier class. So, while it's not exactly useless, it's not exactly useful either.


< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 12/5/2017 15:53:14 >
DF  Post #: 5
12/5/2017 15:54:32   
Winters Key
Member

quote:


and necromancer is stronger than OTHER T3 classes as well. like, for example, pyromancer(has comparable defenses, and better offenses). should pyromancer be T2 as well, then?
..believe it or not, the tier list is nowhere near as accurate power-wise as ash played it out to be.


The problem here is that it's not just Necromancer that outclasses Archivist. Shadow Hunter, Technomancer and arguably even Chickencow (i'm not joking) are more efficient at completing quests, which are the main tasks set within Dragonfable.

I do think that the base classes should be T0, or the list should just be completely re-worked. It's pretty outdated.

< Message edited by Winters Key -- 12/5/2017 16:01:55 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 6
12/5/2017 16:09:43   
Greyor_42
Member

quote:

It's pretty outdated.


it was NEVER "accurate" as to how powerful a class actually is or can be, though.

as i said, while ash may have SAID that the tier list was to guage a class' relative power, it's pretty much always been more of a guideline on how to GET said class.


T0=joke classes that aren't meant to be powerful, but funny, and are aqcuired in amusing/ mundane ways(side note, while it only existed for a short period of time and is now rare, the DOOOOOOOOM class should be here).
T1=base class and any non ataelan variant of them.
T2=storyline/holiday aqcuisition
T3=calendar reward, purchased by DC, or mastery of either a T1 or T2 class
T4=doomknight.
DF  Post #: 7
12/5/2017 18:50:28   
ergotth
AQW Lore-titician


Still Greyor, the point remains that compared to all calendar classes and even non-calendar classes, Archivist is the weakest and least-practical, not to mention very circunstancial class, with this AWFUL cooldown mechanics that, IMO, simply ruined what was going to be the cutest, nostalgic and ingenious class of all the calendar collection. It's simply ridiculous how the balancing screams "DO NOT USE THIS CLASS", how the decisions made it a waste of time (pun intended) and even the mechanic of some skills are unpractical, such as the stun. It's not a full chance, the chances are not each hit, but the total of the auto attack, and it's one turn, so you have to use it again and again to keep the enemy down, which ALSO means you have to first pick other skills to complement your attack with the stun being the last to, well, last longer. It's basicaly a setup hell. If I could "fix" this class in a rebalancing...

-CUT OFF the cooldown carry-over, Verly is a very smart programer, but that was the dumbest idea he ever had in his 9 lives. Sorry Verly, I hold deep respect for your work, but that decision has absolutely no redeeming factor or excuse. For such an expensive class, this cripple sounds like a bad joke.
-Reduce Celestia's heal and also give it a proportionaly normal cooldown. Or make it a "reset heal" like Pyromancer's reborn, that have a good excuse to carry over the cooldown.
-Give it a sub-par useable heal maybe a 10% HP HoT or a leech.*
-Give it a shield*
-Give it a blind (optional)*
-Give the stun a 100% chance like all the normal stuns in game but cut the empowerement from 5 to 3 turns to make it fair.
-Reduce the Ultimate Orb turns from 5 to 3 or 2 to make it fair.

the skills with * are to be suggested with these "memories"
Shield: Aegis casting a shield on us, Ash defending us from Caitiff's blast, or better yet, Dove doing the same.
Blind: Sek Duat, quite easy.
Heal/Leech: Nythera using her void skills.
DF AQW  Post #: 8
12/5/2017 19:09:00   
Andlu
Member

this could be fixed by giving it an artifact, and make it a usable class for normal quests when using said avatar
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 9
12/5/2017 19:14:31   
Greyor_42
Member

@ergotth

like i said, i'm well aware that it's not a good class. i get that. but how good the class is isn't what determines its tier, how you acquire it does. higher tier classes just tend to be more powerful on average(with a few exception, like shadow hunter and necromancer, who are as strong or stronger than a couple tier 3 classes, and the class this topic is a bout, which is abysmally weak if you aren't fighting a straight up boss fight). and as it is a calendar class, it is, by definition, tier 3. like i've said several times now.
DF  Post #: 10
12/5/2017 19:20:49   
Da Awesomancer
Member

@ergoth Lord Frydae after he drained Thursday would be better for a Drain skill since that was a semi-major event.
DF AQW  Post #: 11
12/5/2017 20:44:39   
Steel_King
Member

You know, I was going to say, "This is discussing an armour, there are threads for that, going to get locked, blah..."
But there is no Archivist thread. So... umm... yeah.
Does an Archknight want to make this thing official?
Post #: 12
12/6/2017 1:27:01   
ergotth
AQW Lore-titician


Or reopen a Suggestion section on the forums, I think DF had one.
DF AQW  Post #: 13
12/6/2017 12:01:13   
Da Awesomancer
Member

@ergotth The mods only allow suggestion threads that are created by staff members. There really isn't anyway to suggest changes without the team asking for them first.
DF AQW  Post #: 14
12/6/2017 20:34:46   
Decrogath
Member

Will this class ever get anymore skills at all?
DF  Post #: 15
12/6/2017 20:56:54   
  Starflame13

Gryffin Warrior of DF GD & RP


Discussion threads on armors should go in the armor-specific thread. If one is currently non-existant, you can use the =AK= All Classes Discussion Thread IX. As such, I'll be locking this thread.

A new Archivist thread has been made and can be found here for further discussion. Whether or not you agree with the staff's decision on this class, please keep all discussion polite and respectful to all parties.

~Locked!


AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 16
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