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1/10/2018 10:28:45   
Greyor_42
Member

In the thread titled "What would happen if....?", a question popped up asking "what would happen if we met our evil selves?". The response that was given was that the two uses would fight, and that the evil us would win, because they would have no qualms about using weapons like the Blade of Awe. I would like to contest this.

My opinion is that the fight would end in either a draw, or us standing victorious over our evil self. My reasoning behind this?

For starters, the Blade of Awe isn't quite as big a deal anymore, as there are more powerful weapons that we personally have access to and wield, like the Ultimate Destiny weapons(a destiny weapon that is infused with the power of the ultimate orb? Not sure if there are many weapons that can top that, and the Blade of Awe is definitely not in that list, even if it was infused with something like the Earth Orb, like Trey did). Secondly, we've defeated someone who wielded the Blade of Awe before, and have gotten stronger since then, and also defeated enemies with weapons that are arguably more powerful, like Theano and his Ultimate Sword. Point to good us.

Now, my next thing goes into some serious sci-fi confusion territory, as it deals with the consequences of a universe that runs on multiverse theory, as dragonfable does. Multiverse theory dictates that whenever a choice can be made, the universe splits into branching paths, one of each possible choice that can be made, including making no choice, and each of these paths is a real universe. Normally, the differences between these universes isn't that large. At first. The more radically different the choices made, and the more often these radically different choices are made, the more different the universe ends up being, and the more different choices you are offered along the path. In all honesty, it's very likely that the evil us made choices so radically different to us, that they completely sealed off any chance they could have had to find the Blade of Awe, as they only heard of it from Trey. It's very likely, in fact, more expected than anything, that they wouldn't have let Trey get the Earth Orb completed before them, taken the orb, and kept it for themselves, thus never even learning of the Blade of Awe's existence in the first place. Furthermore, the Earth Orb would have gotten stolen by Sepulchure anyways(unless of course we decided to work for Seppy in that timeline, which is also likely, in which case we would have willingly given it to him), thus wouldn't have access to it. In other words, because of all of the evil choices they made, evil us would actually have their growth of power hampered in comparison to the us we play as. Point goes to us again.

Now for my final point that is in our favor(and I will give at least one point to the evil us after this, just to play devil's advocate). We have access to the Inn at the Edge of Time. Evil us doesn't. Which means we get special training to make us even stronger that evil us can never experience. We've faced opponents that Evil us could never hope to defeat, and won, most specifically Leorilla, and Sir Bearginion, as they will more or less one-shot anybody who doesn't fight fairly(and why the heck would evil us fight fairly? they were described to have cruelty that rivaled the MS). So, while among the timelines, we are one of the weaker versions of us, I would argue that the evil versions of us are the weakest, even in comparison to us, as they are denied access to the Inn.

This actually segues into my one point in evil us' favor. They wouldn't fight fairly. They would take any underhanded measure possible in the fight to try and gain an advantage over us, and take advantage of the fact that we are honorable, hence the possibility of a draw. We would be far too powerful to defeat outright, but they could at best take us out with them.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 1/10/2018 10:29:37 >
DF  Post #: 1
1/10/2018 11:21:47   
lastspartan
Member

Building on what you have wrote about the inn at the edge of time, avatar of time us did say how 4% of us aren't let in.



_____________________________

With every loss we have in our lives, it only strengthens us to get us to our best. Out of failure comes success.
Post #: 2
1/10/2018 11:53:03   
Baron Dante
Member

quote:

For starters, the Blade of Awe isn't quite as big a deal anymore, as there are more powerful weapons that we personally have access to and wield, like the Ultimate Destiny weapons(a destiny weapon that is infused with the power of the ultimate orb? Not sure if there are many weapons that can top that, and the Blade of Awe is definitely not in that list, even if it was infused with something like the Earth Orb, like Trey did). Secondly, we've defeated someone who wielded the Blade of Awe before, and have gotten stronger since then, and also defeated enemies with weapons that are arguably more powerful, like Theano and his Ultimate Sword. Point to good us.

I'm not entirely sure about this though. The real Blade of Awe is the stuff of legends. Even Seppy wanted that, to some degree.
It's a sword with the power to summon a dragon that's probably fairly high on the ladder of dragons (Even if it does so fairly temporarily. It was kinda indicated that when we first fought the Guardian Dragon during our Guardian training that he was merely testing us. You know, us and our dragon.)
Even without that (Since it's not like the Guardian Dragon has ever been shown to stick around), it still had the power to build a massive titan somewhere in the general scale of power to Entropy Dragon and our Dragon (Granted, that was with the Earth Orb too, but since it was brought up anyways, eh)

Is there anything actually indicating that a mere shard of the Ultimate Orb would be above an entire regular orb on that note?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
1/10/2018 12:35:55   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

You act as if the Blade of Awe is the only potential advantage that an evil version of us could have. You spend a majority of this post providing reasoning as to why they wouldn't have the Blade of Awe and how that means we'd win, but frankly, it's irrelevant whether they would have obtained the Blade of Awe or not, because there are plenty of sources of power that we would never touch but they would likely have no qualms about. Look at what happened to Sepulchure when he gave in to evil; he became one of the strongest beings on the planet with the power of Doom. You say evil us would likely be a lackey of Sepulchure, I say they would have overthrown him. Replaced Drakath as his betrayer perhaps, but where Drakath was too weak to follow through, evil us might have been strong enough to defeat him after that and keep the power of the Ultimate Orb. Or let's look at another possibility; Forbidden Magicks. There are all sorts of devious and sadistic things they could do with those, plenty more than what we know of. But even using the ones we do know, they could simply liquefy us with Tanislav's Last Will (that could come back to bite them though, turning us into an Elemental Spirit) or place the Seal of Ativa on us so that we have to kill ourselves to stop some tragedy from happening.

The point being, there are far too many variables to simply say that we would win because X or Y.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
1/10/2018 13:26:49   
dragon_monster
Member

Wow this is an first but look at what @Sakurai the Cursed said and I will add something to this.

quote:

Now for my final point that is in our favor(and I will give at least one point to the evil us after this, just to play devil's advocate). We have access to the Inn at the Edge of Time. Evil us doesn't. Which means we get special training to make us even stronger that evil us can never experience. We've faced opponents that Evil us could never hope to defeat, and won, most specifically Leorilla, and Sir Bearginion, as they will more or less one-shot anybody who doesn't fight fairly(and why the heck would evil us fight fairly? they were described to have cruelty that rivaled the MS). So, while among the timelines, we are one of the weaker versions of us, I would argue that the evil versions of us are the weakest, even in comparison to us, as they are denied access to the Inn.


The evil us ones are not denied entrance to the Inn one of us killed all of Falconreach and raised Serenity from the dead and another one destroyed the world destroyer egg an seems to really like killing dragons and another of us in an lying, cheating doomknight and one is an zombie.
I do not know who are the us they deny entrance to but certainly not towards the evil us.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 5
1/10/2018 14:28:59   
Greyor_42
Member

@Baron Dante

Remember, legends tend to be very over-exaggerated from what reality is. The summoning the guardian dragon thing isn't even canon to dragonfable, that's exclusive to AQ Classic, so not really a factor. The titan thing Trey did wasn't from the Blade of Awe either, really. It was from the Earth Orb. The Blade of Awe was more just a focus for the Earth Orb's power. Really, the main reason Sepulchure wanted it for himself is because he feared what someone else who was powerful might potentially be capable of if they got their hands on it, and merged it with some artifact.

@Sakurai the Cursed

The Seal of Ativa and Tanislav's Last Will tale a LOT of preparation time to perform, which we could easily defeat them in, since they'd have to focus on preparing them. Furthermore, it's also highly likely that their world was destroyed by the end of Book 1. Heck, they probably never even fought Akriloth. Or teamed up with Artix. Or convinced Zhoom to join Falconreach. The thing about Evil us, is that we've actually gotten glimpses of some of their choices, and every choice we caught a glimpse of died very early in the story(one of them even dying back before they even found the world destroyer's egg). That's how radically different evil us' universe is. My point about them not getting the Blade of Awe can work for several other Mcguffins that could tip the odds in evil us' favor. Most of the evil choices we could make would have led to the world ending before the Final 13th, and not always because of us directly.

@dragon_monster

quote:

The evil us ones are not denied entrance to the Inn one of us killed all of Falconreach and raised Serenity from the dead and another one destroyed the world destroyer egg an seems to really like killing dragons and another of us in an lying, cheating doomknight and one is an zombie.


Those weren't acts of evil, though. the Necromancer, while not good, wasn't evil. It was morally grey. The dragonslayer ALSO wasn't evil, as he specifically destroyed the world destroyer egg, like you yourself just said. And while yes, he enjoyed killing dragons, so does Galanoth, who just happens to be one of the big goods of dragonfable. The doomknight did what he did because, in his own words, he has to make a living somehow. And it's pretty obvious that the zombie us isn't evil because being undead doesn't make you evil. Even Artix says that. It just happens that the majority of undead are controlled by evil people.

quote:

I do not know who are the us they deny entrance to but certainly not towards the evil us.


It almost definitely is the evil versions of us. What is the Hero of Lore's destiny after all? Saving Lore. Any evil us that didn't suffer from those unfortunate early fates I mentioned, would have instead become the threat that Lore needs saving from.





Also, please note that I didn't say we would win every time. Like I said, it can also end in a draw(in fact, realistically, this is the most likely outcome). I just don't see evil us emerging as the sole victor.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 1/10/2018 14:45:59 >
DF  Post #: 6
1/10/2018 14:44:14   
dragon_monster
Member

You know what the dragonslayer us said? "No lady tell me what my destiny is" This one defies his destiny and still is allowed in the inn.
And really killing and entire town and raising them as undead is morally grey? This is for anyone who wants to answer.
Oh I am not done one of them is an icebound revenat you know an us corrupted by corrupting ice and other things. Similar to Malifact an if you remember he could not stop the corruption from making him crazy and evil.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 7
1/10/2018 23:08:12   
Axpower
Member

Interesting thread.

My main qualm is with the premise, however - in a world adhering to true multiverse theory, there is most certainly a spectrum of different power levels for the Hero, spanning infinitely in either direction.

The comparison between the Hero in this instance fighting an Evil version of themself, then, is inherently pointless without knowing where on that spectrum the Evil Hero is. It is equally possible for them to be weaker than a Sneevil, or more powerful than Warlic.

An example of an evil hero more powerful than ours would be the hero as a doomknight. Since Dmk v1 is indisputably the most powerful class in the game, a universe in which that is canon would have a Hero stronger than in this universe. "What if" arguments do not apply here, since infinite possibilities assures there is such a universe in which the Hero has taken the same actions as in this universe (perhaps in the guise of heroism), while also obtaining the power of a doomknight and being evil.

< Message edited by Axpower -- 1/10/2018 23:11:34 >
DF  Post #: 8
1/10/2018 23:41:18   
Greyor_42
Member

@Axpower

Very well, I will relent that, depending on which version of evil us we encounter, victory can be a reasonable, and in some cases, even expected, outcome(especially if they're a doomknight). However, I still hold my ground that more often than not, it would end in a draw(most common result), or the evil us losing(not as common as a draw, but more common that evil us winning).
DF  Post #: 9
1/11/2018 1:50:27   
whitetigress
Member

Axpower raises a good point:

quote:

there is most certainly a spectrum of different power levels for the Hero, spanning infinitely in either direction.


But I would like to add that power isn't everything, and in a fight with equal or unequal power levels, one could secure victory by fighting smarter or being more resourceful or by sheer force of will. All of those are variables that are not exclusive to either the "good" or "evil" versions of us. Given all these unknowns, it would be really hard to come up with an outcome that could be true for all, most, or even half the time. Though that gives me an idea, has anyone thought about who would win in a fight given two specific Heroes we've seen from the Inn?
DF AQW  Post #: 10
1/11/2018 2:20:42   
Baron Dante
Member

quote:

Remember, legends tend to be very over-exaggerated from what reality is. The summoning the guardian dragon thing isn't even canon to dragonfable, that's exclusive to AQ Classic, so not really a factor. The titan thing Trey did wasn't from the Blade of Awe either, really. It was from the Earth Orb. The Blade of Awe was more just a focus for the Earth Orb's power. Really, the main reason Sepulchure wanted it for himself is because he feared what someone else who was powerful might potentially be capable of if they got their hands on it, and merged it with some artifact.

Considering the first thing Trey did with the Blade of Awe was summon the Guardian Dragon, I'd say it's pretty canon.
And yeah, it was primarily the Earth Orb that was used to bring forth the titan, but I was mostly pointing that out as a comparison towards the Ultimate Orb comparison (While not making an assumption on the part the Orb played vs. the role BoA potentially played).
The thing is, we don't have any real comparison to the power of say, the Ultimate BLoD, as no character has ever used it outside of ours, and that's kinda questionable. Meanwhile, Theano's blade may have been fairly impressive, but I don't see much evidence to support it being better than BoA+Earth Orb, or necessarily even either of them. BoA itself doesn't have much direct feats outside of summoning Guardian Dragon, but the combination? Yeah we sure needed an adult dragon for that.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 11
1/11/2018 8:52:07   
dragon_monster
Member

I can be so dumb sometimes so evil us will not let the orbs be not used for empowering him. Remember we had access to 5 elemental orbs that we did not used, one we stored in our bank. Imagine using those orbs to empwoer the blade of awe or use them as an source of power directly yeas sure evil us will empower his dragon like we did but he also could empower himself and not passive as we got but active like empowering an weapon or using an orb directly as an power source and cast spells.

Imagine using the darkness orb to empower or increase you necromantic powers or infuse an weapon with an orb like Trey and the rose dude did it also that I forgot the name of.

do any of oyu think such an evil us will ever lose to the good us that are us?

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 1/11/2018 8:53:06 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 12
1/11/2018 17:55:04   
Steel_King
Member

One problem I think we are encountering is how the evil Hero would have hurdled many of the challenges that the Hero has faced down and defeated. In some instances they would have survived, others not, and sometimes they might not even have encountered the issue at all. It even depends on whether the Hero started out evil, or slowly lost their way. Regardless, there are so many variables in action that it would be exceedingly difficult to plot even most probable outcomes. So, it might be worthwhile to refocus and ask a more targeted question.

Let's say that in an alternate timeline, a Hero has undergone all of our challenges up to this point, and completed them in a similar fashion. The difference is that instead of say, attending the Gala, they receive a summons from Aquella to the Locker. Going there, they discover Kathool has woken substantially, but are then driven insane by it. Kathool then compels them to go above-water and wreak as much destruction and havoc as possible.

There. One completely amoral but almost identical Hero. Similar powers, similar past, no scruples. Do we win or lose against them? Any thoughts?
Post #: 13
1/12/2018 1:43:11   
Greyor_42
Member

@Steel_King

In that situation, yeah, the evil us would almost guaranteed have the victory, as, while they'd have the same gear and powers as us, they'd have less morals when it comes to combat, and would stoop to lows that we would never consider just to get the victory. We either lose to them, or take them down with us through sheer determination and hope that someone comes along to save us from potential death from our injuries afterwards.
DF  Post #: 14
1/12/2018 6:16:56   
requiem.exe
Member

Wouldn't an evil us usually have an evil dragon? Or rather, a version of our current dragon that we aren't convincing to hold back and not destroy everything? I'm pretty sure that, all else being equal, the version of us and our dragon that doesn't care about collateral damage has the advantage. Also, someone else mentioned forbidden magic, that's a huge deal for an evil us. If an evil version of us felt for a moment that they couldn't win head on, they'd probably use forbidden magic on us, or on those we care about. Threaten to "Last Will" Falconreach if we don't throw down our weapons and their dragon eat us.

The fact is, the hero is at a disadvantage even if they are stronger. An evil version of someone who has seen half the crap we have would be an issue simply because they can do underhanded crap and manipulate people. You think they wouldn't pose as us and trick people into abandoning us? Especially with the Rose running around ready to believe it and convince others? The hero is strong, but if an evil version turns Lore against them, they'll have a hard time of winning. And that's just one possibility, there's plenty of dirty tricks that can be used.

That said, didn't Jaania mention an evil us? One who about as evil or cruel as MS? I'm pretty sure that with a tease like that, we'll have our match at some point in the game. No way a Chekhov's gun like that goes unfired. Of course, when that happens, we will certainly triumph in the end because of the one tool The Hero has that an evil hero won't: Plot Armor.
AQ DF  Post #: 15
1/12/2018 7:10:17   
Greyor_42
Member

@requiem.exe

quote:

Threaten to "Last Will" Falconreach if we don't throw down our weapons and their dragon eat us.


two problems with that idea, though.

1. Who would teach them the Last Will? As the hero is now, they've never even heard of such a spell, let alone know its name.

2. If they have to resort to making a threat like that, base on the scenario you gave, why would we throw our weapons down? We're clearly in a winning position, thus making that threat completely empty, since they can't exactly follow through with it if we kill them.

quote:

The fact is, the hero is at a disadvantage even if they are stronger. An evil version of someone who has seen half the crap we have would be an issue simply because they can do underhanded crap and manipulate people.


Yes, we'd be at a disadvantage against a weaker version of us who was evil due to using underhanded methods. I already stated that, and explained why the most likely result in such a scenario would be a draw, as they'd cheat their way to it. However, how would they manipulate people they way you explained before meeting us? That's entirely a non-factor, as the situation in question is "we and our evil selves randomly meet and realizing who the other is, fight". There simply wouldn't be time for them to go around tricking people, since they'd be too occupied already fighting us.
DF  Post #: 16
1/12/2018 8:33:58   
requiem.exe
Member

quote:

"we and our evil selves randomly meet and realizing who the other is, fight".


Didn't realize it's a spontaneous out of nowhere thing. It was only said before that we fight, not that there's no setup time. Even so, if an evil us thought for a moment that they would lose, why would they stick around? They'd haul off and plan something. Our character even gets the idea of falling back to strike later.

quote:

Who would teach them the Last Will? As the hero is now, they've never even heard of such a spell, let alone know its name.


I have a hard time believing that an evil version of us would learn of the existence of Soul weaving and/or forbidden magic and not go through the effort of learning both. Of course, this depends on the evil version of us turning evil AFTER learning about Soulweaving from Tomix, or more likely after learning about forbidden magic during the void ship stuff.
AQ DF  Post #: 17
1/12/2018 13:09:53   
dragon_monster
Member

Or use the elemental orbs when they where available or the bacon orb later as an evil us. Now I do not get why the good us never did it either but the evil us could take an page from Konnan and enslave dragons and elemental with the power of the orbs making an huge army far bigger then any because you know we had 5 orbs.

AQ DF MQ  Post #: 18
1/12/2018 13:54:31   
requiem.exe
Member

quote:

Now I do not get why the good us never did it either but the evil us could take an page from Konnan and enslave dragons and elemental with the power of the orbs


Uhm, the good us probably didn't enslave anyone due to being, well, the GOOD us. We seem to be firmly against the whole enslavement thing (except when we are necromancers, but the undead don't have rights.)
AQ DF  Post #: 19
1/12/2018 14:00:12   
dragon_monster
Member

No I mean why the good us did not used the orbs directly instead of keeping them far from us?

AQ DF MQ  Post #: 20
1/12/2018 14:07:10   
requiem.exe
Member

OOOH, I completely misread that. I don't properly remember, but I think we didn't want to keep them all in the same place or something. I need to replay those old quests.
AQ DF  Post #: 21
1/12/2018 14:13:28   
dragon_monster
Member

He probably was not that smart as the hero is shown he is dumb as Goku to be fair unless its about saving the world so pretty much as Goku. But will an evil power hungry us be smarter or at least less dumb by the fact that us wants to gain more power.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 22
1/12/2018 14:27:11   
Greyor_42
Member

^Actually, keeping the orbs all on their person would have mad them even easier for Sepulchure to claim them, and the hero knew that. That's why they hid them away in various places with protectors that they trusted. Because of this, keeping the orbs together in one place would have actually been the less intelligent decision, because then Sepulchure could have just shown up, said "hey, you got the orbs for me, and gathered them in one place for me-thanks!", beat us senseless, and took them in much shorter time than it took for him to do so in the Final 13th war, where he actually did have to go around and collect them from the hiding places himself(or have certain spies do it for him, like Gary and Kasuf).

Besides, holding onto them wouldn't have gotten us more power anyways, since we aren't like Konnan. We aren't attuned to one specific element naturally, so we just got a generic overall boost, which has been established to be a one-time per orb thing, and happens purely from first coming in contact with said orb, so a prolonged exposure wouldn't really do anything.
DF  Post #: 23
1/12/2018 14:32:36   
dragon_monster
Member

I do not think its that necessary to be attuned to use them that is an strange limitation and considering they where created with the purpose of being used not being guarded for eternity. Also our dragon is not attuned to any element and he can use any of them of the orbs I mean so why not the hero?

For example is there any proof of Sek duat of being attuned to light? He still used the light orb.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 24
1/12/2018 15:04:39   
Greyor_42
Member

@Dragon_monster

quote:

I do not think its that necessary to be attuned to use them that is an strange limitation and considering they where created with the purpose of being used not being guarded for eternity. Also our dragon is not attuned to any element and he can use any of them of the orbs I mean so why not the hero?


For the "strange limitation", that was something stated by staff, so we can't exactly argue with that. Also, if they were "made to be used and not being guarded for eternity", then why did the avatars who made them give them to the guardians to do just that?

As for our dragon, they're unique, as you know. Unlike any other dragon in the world(and almost any living creature), they can actively change the element they are attuned to. So, your statement about them not being attuned to any element is, in fact, the exact opposite of the truth, as they are, quite literally, attuned to any element that they want to be.

quote:

For example is there any proof of Sek duat of being attuned to light? He still used the light orb.


Sek Duat is a Light Lich. I'm pretty sure that's proof enough. Furthermore, he didn't use the Light orb in the same style as Konnan, who used it as a power source to strengthen himself and his pyromancy. He merely used it as a reagent for a spell, and never actually attuned to it, at least, not before he became said Light Lich. And if your argument for that point is simply "there's no proof that he's light attuned", I can very easily counter that with "there's no proof that he isn't light attuned". Lack of proof is not proof of lacking, after all.
DF  Post #: 25
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