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RE: Aegis and fleshweaving

 
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1/30/2018 4:47:55   
rater202
Member

Nobody was using Vaal as supporting evidence.

They were using him as an example of a possible end result.

I mean, Secundus somehow made AEgis mortal again for just one day. Why? Was he just being nice(Albeit in a way that possibly killed someone) or does it somehow feed into his plans?

We know that being made mortal again isn't a prerequisite for being consumed because Riorr just omnomnoms them all willy nilly.

And why do we need to consume Aegis in particular and not some other spirit--why not the Greedling, or some spirit that we've never even met?

And judging from his dialog when we find him, Secundus really wants us to become a Fleshweaver.

So enshrouding Aegis in flesh probably feeds into that, somehow... But how?

Various writers have said that the hero will never do anything "Evil" which would ordinarily preclude Fleshweaver... But Tomix has confirmed that Consuming Aegis won't be murder.

If Secundus has, somehow, made a way for Aegis to persist and then sent us towards corrupted evil Elemental Spirits who need to be banished anyway for further training, more because he knows we won't do it otherwise than out of any morality on his part, that would be one way of reconciling Fleshweaver with the PC's canon morality.
AQ DF  Post #: 26
1/30/2018 10:43:11   
Greyor_42
Member

Just want to point out as well, that, by definition, killing someone is only murder if it was planned out beforehand. If not, then it's manslaughter. So, saying that it isn't murder might simply mean it's not something the Hero plans out in advance. It could very well still be us killing Aegis, but not be murder, like Dove said, simply because of that reason.
DF  Post #: 27
1/30/2018 11:58:25   
Vanilla Icecream
Member

quote:

Nobody was using Vaal as supporting evidence.


Like I said, it depends on how you read it. To me, it felt like everyone was using the 'Vaal did it, so why not Aegis?' logic.


I always thought that the "It's not murder" thing to mean that it won't be killing with the intent to kill. If I'm about to get hit by a truck and a friend dives in to save me and dies in the process, it's not murder. If I accidentally drop a vase which kills someone, it's not murder. If my friend and I happened to be exposed to great peril and I couldn't save him, it's not murder. If we were both hanging on the cliff and my hand holding my friend's slipped, it's not murder. I have to push my friend off the cliff for it to be murder.

IIRC, Tomix told us that "it won't be murder" when people were debating on the hero's morality and how it would be ridiculous for the hero to murder their best friend merely to gain power. (I'm not 100% sure, since it was a pretty long time ago :/) I think what he meant by that is that the hero won't make an evil decision; my guess is that circumstances will force them to make the choice and Aegis would willingly sacrifice himself for what he believes is the greater good.
DF  Post #: 28
1/31/2018 3:37:44   
Flabagast
Member

@rater202

I think my theory might answer both of your questions regarding Aegis' significance to Secundus. I think Secundus knows that Aegis would be an ideal snack for the Hero because the bond between them. This ties into why Secundus would weave a temporary body for Aegis to wear; the Hero and Aegis sharing humanly experiences would strengthen that bond. It may be that the stronger the bond we have with a spirit, the more effectively we may use it's power if we were to consume it.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 29
1/31/2018 6:49:45   
Christophoses
AQW Tester
&
Lore Adept


Going back to the very first time that we met Aegis, it's evident that he's the type of person that would make the sacrifice of being consumed if that's one of the only things that could stop calamity from occurring, or save the lives of many. If neither of these situations are relevant, being consumed to access greater power would likely be seen as greedy.

The role of a hero is to do what you must do and to make the necessary sacrifices for the greater good. "Good" is subjective, though. What one might do for the sake of goodness might be considered helpful to some but harmful to others.

Fleshweaving isn't currently a needed skill to be able to do "good". However, I can think of several possible situations in the near future where it would be helpful.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 30
1/31/2018 8:27:28   
megakyle777
Member

You know, putting aside the whole eating spirits and Ageis thing... I want to know if Fleshweaver is like a inherently evil class, or if it could be used for good. I could see them becoming handy doctors that can heal what could otherwise not be healed. And if one can reshape their own flesh without being hurt, I'd imagine that it could be learned to manipulate others flesh non painfully or non lethally as well, although I would imagine that it would require a skilled hand much like a surgeon and that it'd be much easier to just take.

...You know, assuming for a second that Secundus is not pure evil and is not using us and Poitr as puppets for evil ends. I mean come on look at them!
DF  Post #: 31
1/31/2018 9:01:01   
rater202
Member

@^The Devs have repeatedly stated that the hero will never be evil, so at the very least Fleshweaver isn't an "automatically and forever soul is tainted" evil thing.

At the very least, it can probably be used to fight evil.

We know that Fleshweaving can be used to make things up to and including buildings(Murk's shop in book one is very clearly made of Flesh)and probably have the samespecial qualities as soulwover and soulforged objects, so I suppose if people don't mind wearing our flesh we could equip the redshirt defenders of Falconreach with some high-quality armor I guess.
AQ DF  Post #: 32
1/31/2018 9:41:08   
Greyor_42
Member

^ Sooo, indestructible flesh armor that changes color depending on the wearer's mood? 0_o
DF  Post #: 33
1/31/2018 9:58:52   
rater202
Member

That would actually be really useful, if a bit creepy.

...Do fleshweaver's regenerate or generate flesh to weave with or would we like have to consume biomatter to weave that much?

And if Fleshweaving is, per Secundus, the pinacle of the weaving arts, Fleshwoven materials might even be of higherquality than soulwoven ones.

< Message edited by rater202 -- 1/31/2018 10:00:35 >
AQ DF  Post #: 34
1/31/2018 15:51:00   
SoullessButProud
Member

it'd be a cool game mechanic if every time you killed someone fleshweaver equipped 1 flesh was added to you temp inventory which then could be used to make flesh items
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 35
2/1/2018 4:43:32   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

In regards to consuming Aegis, consider this; Who would be the greatest threat to the Hero once they become a Fleshweaver?

Aegis is not especially knowledgeable in regards to the intricacies of soulweaving, having only been a young Soulweaver at the time of his death; he even states that he only 'did what I was told'. If Secundus had approached a spirit with the knowledge of Danyel, the phrase 'flesh is my thing' would have set off alarm bells instantly. Even Lanrete would recognize that Secundus is the spirit of a Murk.
As long as Secundus can keep Aegis either confused or in the dark, he might consent to the Hero being a Fleshweaver. However, if the Hero became one while he was still in existence, he'd see firsthand what-- exactly-- Fleshweavers are. This is likely true of most soulallies, but something tells me a spirit of Valour wouldn't be too pleased with what the Hero had become.
Additionally, Aegis is a spirit of defence; given the propensity of corrupted spirits to consume weaker souls, and his emotion being to protect the weak, there's a high probability that he can shield spirits from being consumed.
He might potentially kill the Hero before we acquired too much power.

So, essentially, I suspect that Secundus has Fleshweavers consume their soulallies because it eliminates the greatest threat early-on. Well, being the spirit of cowardice Duality he probably has two reasons; the other being that it's preferable to have a bond with a creature you're going to assimilate into your body.
DF MQ  Post #: 36
2/1/2018 5:23:07   
rater202
Member

@^Problem.

Tomix's book one dialog implies that nobody has any idea what Murks are or where their power comes from, and while Tomix the Dev states the possibility that certain NPCs will refuse to do business with us, Tomix the NPC doesn't seem to have any problems with Murk's presence or with us doing business with Murk.

So assuming based on Murk's shop obviously being made of Flesh that it's known that Murks weave with Flesh... There doesn't seem to be that much of a problem with it.

So "Flesh is my thing" might not be as big a red flag as you seem to think.
AQ DF  Post #: 37
2/1/2018 5:59:11   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

^I was actually considering Tomix as one of the 'ignorant' camp, alongside Aegis. Since Tomix was expelled, he'd likely have had even less knowledge than Aegis.
He was certainly a very kinesthetic learner until Aspar removed his hands.
Maybe he should have been a soulsmith. Then the only risk would be releasing the seven corrupt undeveloped elemental spirits, who would terrorize people with a vague feeling that they didn't know what their body looked like...

Rumors of Murks did exist. Weaving with flesh isn't covered by any of the weaving arts, and even if the possibility did exist that it was an obscure application of one of the three known ones, Lanrete had enough information that he would have suspected (although, as I stated above, only that Secundus was related to Murks). Even excluding his soulally, Danyel definitely had more knowledge than Lanrete on the potential applications of weaving magic(k)s, so he'd likely figure out more, possibly even that imbuing the art in a living person would involve consuming spirits.
And I suspect even Tomix may have figured some of it out if Secundus had approached him... as a spirit... somehow.
DF MQ  Post #: 38
2/1/2018 6:50:01   
Kresnik
Member

But werent murks confirmed as one of the four families of weaving by Lanrete?So they werent actually rumours. Still it would be cool if the hero could just eat undeveloped elemental spirits used in soul forging.Like it would probably be a more ethical solution for the hero instead of going around eating soul allies.
DF AQW  Post #: 39
2/1/2018 7:22:56   
rater202
Member

@^

Thing is, there's no indication that the hero has to keep eating spirits--Tomix said that training that half of the skills was optional.

Furthermore, consuming spirits isn't just to gain their element--it's also to gain their powers and their skills.

Eating an undeveloped spirit of each element wouldn't give us new skills and wouldn't make us that much more powerful--and furthermore, since Aegis is a powerful spirit of Ice, not consuming spirits on the same level for the other elements might result in us being unbalanced.

Or in other words, it's the difference between Thankstaking dinner with all the fixings and a single serving bag of plain, unsalted potato chips.

Also, nowhere was it said that we'd be eating other Weaver's Soul Allies. Considering that the Hero will never be evil, per the Devs, I'm operating on the assumption that they'll be corrupted or otherwise malevolent spirits who would need to be banished anyway, either because that's our preference or because Secundus knows enough about us to only send us after ones we won't have qualms about killing.

Though I imagine that a couple of undeveloped spirits here and there might be a decent way to slowly accumulate power.
AQ DF  Post #: 40
2/1/2018 8:13:49   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

But one thing i forgot to ask, if we become Fleshweavers. He will lose Aegis , SW and MSW, but we will keep all other classes, right? And Fleshweavers will be able to wear Baltael Aventail too?

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 2/1/2018 8:14:40 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 41
2/1/2018 8:15:41   
rater202
Member

We'll keep classes, and we should be able to Equip BA but it won't be good for anything except stats.

The only way taking away every other class for FW would be remotely fair would be if it was a tier 4 class with a full set-- a weapon, helm, cape, amulet, belt, ring, and bracer--of artifacts that just flatly buffed skills, each with stats comparable to a doom/destiny weapon.

That's never gonna happen.

< Message edited by rater202 -- 2/1/2018 8:20:59 >
AQ DF  Post #: 42
2/1/2018 8:21:38   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

In that case, i am ready to become Fleshweaver, i hope it to be released soon.. (I have even got the 7 Memory Fragments from First Weaver Saga to Ensure it)

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 2/1/2018 8:23:47 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 43
2/1/2018 10:30:19   
rater202
Member

Actually, the thought occurs to me that since Riorr is not a Template for what Fleshweaver will be like... Does that extend to story things?

If Secundus is the Spirit of Duality, whose to say that the form of Fleshweaving he teaches us isn't some kind of "two beings in one body" type thing?
AQ DF  Post #: 44
2/1/2018 12:12:36   
Vanilla Icecream
Member

@ShinyUnderpants
quote:

So, essentially, I suspect that Secundus has Fleshweavers consume their soulallies because it eliminates the greatest threat early-on. 


This had me wondering; if FWs gain skills every time they consume an Elemental Spirit, maybe their final skill would be from the hero getting their revenge on Secondus and consuming him, and finally putting an end to him?
DF  Post #: 45
2/1/2018 12:50:51   
Hermitpriest
Member

@Vanilla Icecream

That could happen if the timeline weren't a problem, unlike the other sagas in Dragonfable the Weaver Saga already has an end point laid out and Secundus is apart of it. The only point in time where the hero could consume Secundus without completely altering time itself would be after Secundus sends Vaal and Roirr to the past to repeat the cycle, and since we don't know how far ahead in the timeline that moment is, the chances of the hero consuming are slim to not at all.
DF  Post #: 46
2/1/2018 12:51:21   
rater202
Member

@Unless Fleshweaver doesn't come until Book 4, that's highly unlikely as Secundus still needs to close the Timeloop at his end.

However, I'm expecting him to be an Antagonist at some point in Book 4, and the idea that a Fleshweaver PC eats him instead of banishing him, perhaps to a Fleshweaver Artifact drop, is one that appeals.
AQ DF  Post #: 47
2/1/2018 13:49:47   
Greyor_42
Member

@Hermitpriest rater202

Remember, though, Secundus can time travel, thanks to being half Roirr. It's entirely within the realm of possibility that he technically closed the time-loop before coming to meet us, thus making it entirely plausible that we consume him after he closes the time-loop, but still be in Book 3(assuming he doesn't cleverly manipulate things to make it impossible to consume him).
DF  Post #: 48
2/1/2018 16:20:10   
Tomix
Soulweaver


quote:

Secundus can time travel, thanks to being half Roirr.


That's not why ;)
DF  Post #: 49
2/1/2018 16:29:31   
rater202
Member

It has something to do with traveling through the Plane of Elemental Spirits, right?

It's not synched up, time wise, with Lore so physically transporting there and heading elsewhere to lore through it won't nessesarily take you when you want to be--that's why the First Weaver Saga takes place slightly in the future.

And since Secundus is a powerful Elemental Spirit rather than an unstable soul in a stolen meat body, he's naturally adept at traveling between the planes, more so than anyone else since he can open portals to allow mortals to physically entered, meaning he has some degree of control over when people come in and out.

Right? I think that was how it was explained before.
AQ DF  Post #: 50
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