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Ways to make Falwynn surpass the hero.

 
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2/12/2018 20:33:01   
dragon_monster
Member

So we have an apprentice now its an 16 year old girl who uses an crosbow as her weapon of choice and apparently only one. The hero is currently training her teaching her the basics but that will not bring her at the level of the hero not by far. The hero is an veteran adventurer basically fighting for half if not more of her life he also got empowered by the orbs and has access to top level training so much that is basically cheating. I mean he goes in the portal train and not time passes on Lore.
So how can Falwynn surpass the hero what should it be done?
First to even have an chance she needs to unlock her magic. Yes you can unlock it but it seems to be either something you are born with or traumatic event like with Raven unlocks it. So this is iffy to put it like that but necessary so this is something that has to be done.
So what do you all think how could the hero in the future make her surpass the hero?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 1
2/12/2018 21:51:54   
Kresnik
Member

Probably trying to teach her how to counter the types of classes he has. As well as maybe teach her about both doom and destiny weapons.She doesnt have to surpass the hero immediately but just be competent in a fight and help as many people as she can.I mean look at how ash turned out from book 1 to book 3.I agree that it is true that the hero recieved so much training that it is borderline cheating but there are others who are far stronger than the hero.
DF AQW  Post #: 2
2/12/2018 22:04:15   
dragon_monster
Member

That will require some upgrade for her. For example lets take dragonlord one of the canon classes how do you counter something with an big shield, armored from head to feet able to use all the elements for ranged attacks and Fal has an crossbow. She can use it well but can it do anything against the dragonlord hero?

Actually is there even an counter to dragonlord besides overwhelming power to teach?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 3
2/12/2018 22:45:31   
Greyor_42
Member

quote:

First to even have an chance she needs to unlock her magic. Yes you can unlock it but it seems to be either something you are born with or traumatic event like with Raven unlocks it.


Nobody has ever "unlocked" magic, though. They either had it, or didn't, or had it and it got sealed away at some point, either by themself subconsciously, or by another person. Raven's traumatic experience happened specifically because she had and could already use magic.
DF  Post #: 4
2/12/2018 23:01:35   
dragon_monster
Member

Actually Tomix said that certain events can make people unlock their magic. Everybody has it after all but some can not use it and that event makes them us it. Most humans do not seem to be able to use magic but all have the possibility. All of the humans are connected to the mana core after all does it not make sense that all have the potential of using magic?
So Falw needs to have her magic unlocked to even come close to the hero.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 5
2/12/2018 23:43:33   
Greyor_42
Member

quote:

Actually Tomix said that certain events can make people unlock their magic.


Where did he say this(and was it Tomix the staff, or Tomix the character, because I highly doubt it was the character)? Because there is absolutely no indication in-game that such a thing can occur. And before you say "San Robin", his magic is sealed away subconsciously. Also, it seems more like most humans(at least, in Greenguard) can use magic, they simply either don't have much talent with it, or simply never bother to learn how. Remember, San Robin believed himself to be strange for not being able to use it, which very explicitly indicates that being able to use magic is the norm. Also, being connected to the mana core(being a magical creature) and being able to use magic are two different things. How many clawkins and gorillaphants have you seen use magic?

quote:

So Falw needs to have her magic unlocked to even come close to the hero.


Like Kresnik said, why does she even need to be close to or surpass the hero? And i'm going to supplement that point further by bringing up the fact that she's most likely not going to be working alone like the hero tends to aside from major crisis situations, like their dragon being corrupted by Doom.
DF  Post #: 6
2/13/2018 0:47:12   
dragon_monster
Member

Tomix the staff said that also while San Robin not being able to use magic being is not making him special the hero is very confused on why he should keep that an secret and why that is an secret.
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22129815
quote:

<Character>: At first I was really curious about why you keep your... magic problem, a secret-
<Character>: -but I promised not to ask any further so I have other questions.
<Character>: First off: You lied to me, it DID have something to do with cheese!

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22129815

quote:

San Robin: Hmm... I thought you knew.
<Character>: Knew what?
San Robin: About my dark secret...
<Character>: Dark secret? You? You must be joking!
San Robin: No, I'm afraid it's true... you see... I... I'm... mana-impaired. I can't use magic.
<Character>: O...k... not what I expected, but why are you keeping that a secret.


You see the hero thinks that is not actually that big of an deal or worthy of an secret if it was something special not to have magic he will have no problem with it.

quote:

Like Kresnik said, why does she even need to be close to or surpass the hero? And i'm going to supplement that point further by bringing up the fact that she's most likely not going to be working alone like the hero tends to aside from major crisis situations, like their dragon being corrupted by Doom.


The hero mostly works alone then with someone in that I mean he mostly quests alone and has an high rate of success so much so that he is an important fixture in Greenguard. I mean villains are afraid that the Hero will go for them. To get to such renown and inspire such fear well you have to do quite amazing things and for that you have to be quite powerful.
Why should Fal surpass the hero?
Because what is the point then you do not get trained by the best without any intention of surpassing the best and the best will not train you without expecting you to surpass him. Also an waste of time if not.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 7
2/13/2018 0:58:47   
Kresnik
Member

Its true that the point of an apprentice is for them to carry on the teachings and surpass their teachers like how the hero did with learning the other classes from others.With that said, maybe Fal's crossbow is here starting weapon.She isnt limited to just that.She could learn how to use multiple types of weapons from us and even new class skills.But it might be hard for her to learn how to use magic with the rose around.
DF AQW  Post #: 8
2/13/2018 1:02:47   
OpprobriousPinecones
Member

Like Greyor and Kresnik said, I don't see why she needs to even be stronger than us; I mean, we're training her as an apprentice, not as a successor or somebody who could defeat us if we went rogue.

I do personally recall somebody mentioning that everybody has some capacity for magic; some people more than others, but everybody gets at least a little. the average person isn't going to be casually throwing around fireballs or anything, but at the very least they could perform some rudimentary magic with proper training. I'm not sure whether magic is something that could really be "unlocked" if I'm remembering this right; it's not that Falwynn's magic is locked, per se, but that she doesn't have that much in the first place.

For argument's sake, though, I do have a theoretical way she could maybe stand a chance against a Dragonlord. We can see from the Dragonlord abilities that the power of Dragonlords stem from calling upon the spirits of dragons. We can also see, both from Gathering Shadows and quests involving Vilmor and Frostscythe, that, while Dragon Amulets do allow communication with dragons, under certain circumstances they can be used to forcibly subjugate them. If we were to use an elemental orb (not necessarily any of the major 8; a more minor one may suffice) to craft a Dragon Amulet for each element, like Aisha did, Falwynn might be able to use them to stop the abilities of a Dragonlord by subjugating their spirits when called upon.


This is, of course, assuming that a minor elemental orb would even be strong enough to do this, or that Dragon Amulets can affect a dragon's spirit without its actual body, but it's one of the only counters aside from overpowering force I can think of.

quote:

Because what is the point then you do not get trained by the best without any intention of surpassing the best and the best will not train you without expecting you to surpass him. Also an waste of time if not.


Eh, but it's up to Falwynn to surpass us on her own, and that's only if she wants to. Plus, without having any sort of unique ability Falwynn could only get as strong as us, not stronger; at least, through training alone and not equipment. It's not really a waste of time to be trained without surpassing your trainer, either; when all is said and done, still stronger than you were before. If a CEO successfully taught me how to make billions, even if I don't make more than they do I still made a billions. There's still a clear benefit to having been taught. And if I want to make more money than they did, then that's up to me to take what I already know and go a different way with it.

< Message edited by OpprobriousPinecones -- 2/13/2018 2:59:06 >
Post #: 9
2/13/2018 1:41:49   
Greyor_42
Member

quote:

Tomix the staff said that also while San Robin not being able to use magic being is not making him special the hero is very confused on why he should keep that an secret and why that is an secret

Again: where did he say that? Also, just because it's not something he hero thinks is important doesn't mean it's not rare. The way San Robin is so self conscious about his "mana-impairment" very heavily indicates that it is rare for someone to be unable to use magic in any capacity.


quote:

The hero mostly works alone then with someone in that I mean he mostly quests alone and has an high rate of success so much so that he is an important fixture in Greenguard.


Yeah, that was my point. The hero tends to work alone except for very serious situations, thus they need to be as strong as they are. Falwynn, on the other hand, will most likely NOT be working alone at any point(being one of the titular "six heroes" which implies she'll be having five allies that she'd be working alongside), thus she wouldn't need to be a one-man-army like we are. And like opprobrious said, we aren't training a successor or contingency plan. We're training an apprentice. And I don't know where you get the idea that the only reason people want to be trained by someone or want to train someone is so that the trainee surpasses the trainer. That rarely, if ever, is either the intention, or outcome(and when it's the outcome, it's almost never the intention(unless by the student when they are either incredibly evil, or incredibly ambitious)).

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 2/13/2018 1:46:13 >
DF  Post #: 10
2/13/2018 3:57:49   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

quote:

~original: @Greyor_42
Falwynn, on the other hand, will most likely NOT be working alone at any point(being one of the titular "six heroes" which implies she'll be having five allies that she'd be working alongside)

Falwynn isn't one of the six heroes.
She's actually all six! Six Falwynns from six points in time can combine to make the Ultimate Falwynn, and be used as power-ups for the dragon, inadvertantly spreading all the anachronistic clues of the saga in the process.
Then, her duty completed, Falwynn will die tragically. Six times.

This is, incidentally, also how we will make Falwynn more powerful than the Hero.

< Message edited by Shiny_Underpants -- 2/13/2018 4:01:52 >
DF MQ  Post #: 11
2/13/2018 4:22:24   
LurkBlackSmith
Member

From looking we'll probably get a gauntlet that was a incomplete master soulweaver's replacement, but forgot to get it to probably either it was broken and we decided to reforge it with a long dagger attachment.
DF  Post #: 12
2/13/2018 9:08:26   
Ĉon
The Darklight Hero


quote:

Falwynn isn't one of the six heroes.
She's actually all six! Six Falwynns from six points in time can combine to make the Ultimate Falwynn, and be used as power-ups for the dragon, inadvertantly spreading all the anachronistic clues of the saga in the process.
Then, her duty completed, Falwynn will die tragically. Six times.

This is, incidentally, also how we will make Falwynn more powerful than the Hero.


Is that before or after you accidentally do something to power up a villain, giving them the advantage?

Anyways, Falwynn's as ordinary as you can get; but she's got a strong foundation and I'm sure you guys'll think of something!
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 13
2/13/2018 9:39:17   
Greyor_42
Member

^

Based on our track record..... after.


Also, if History's Mightiest Disciple Kenichi has taught me anything about training, it's that building up foundations to absurd degrees via training(or hax level powerups like attuning to all the prime orbs when you aren't aligned to an element that would benefit) is enough to make one superhuman in fiction. And since her special trait is already listed as "potential", I doubt it would really take that long, either.
DF  Post #: 14
2/13/2018 10:21:08   
dragon_monster
Member

quote:

Again: where did he say that? Also, just because it's not something he hero thinks is important doesn't mean it's not rare. The way San Robin is so self conscious about his "mana-impairment" very heavily indicates that it is rare for someone to be unable to use magic in any capacity.

Yes it kinda does also if everybody can use magic then in the Shapless empire people will not have to run with their children when they display magic because there taken from them, or are stopped from advancing in the government of that said empire because they can not use magic. Or are used as living batteries. It more common to not use magic for humans then to use. San Robin is like an average human like the most of them but titles himself of an hero and he might be ashamed of his limitations.

Now I must thank you about something I was pressed to find examples where the apprentice is expected to surpass his master. But you gave me one Kenichi is expected to surpass his masters especially the old guy and the strongest of them but not only that one the one with the contraptions for training also expects him to surpass him and he does want to do that. Do you think Kenichi is evil or ambitious for that?
Not really but he still tries.

Now hoe to make Fal unlock her magic well an shard of the ultimate orb who will unlock magic. Anyone who even came close to one of the orbs got magic some even after it was gone like Vaale also I do not think every single one of the people who got the orb where Aegis what are the chance?
One of them got the ability to shapeshift. So we get an fragment of the ultimate orb and give it to her which will give her magic especially now when it made of all the orbs together.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 15
2/13/2018 10:31:14   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

American cinema has taught me that there is only one true way to power up a character. In light of this, the only service we may provide is if our blacksmithing level is maxed; we must provide Falwynn with a bigger crossbow. And, preferably, an ammunition belt. And sunglasses

quote:

~original: @Aeon
Is that before or after you accidentally do something to power up a villain, giving them the advantage?

I protest that line, that's only true of a fringe number of cases. It was only SMUDD... and Wargoth... and Sek Duat...
Aha! Xan! We stole his pyronomicon! Then we... killed Akriloth, in the process giving him an undead mount and an orb...
Aisha... Sir Malifact... either of the unmemorable guys from the Wind Orb Saga who briefly use it... Jaania, who we also gave an incentive...
We gave Aspar access to the void... then we inadvertantly fed Vaal to Roirr...
Huh.

Actually, slightly more seriously, archery is a more nuanced skill than using a crossbow. While they can contain significantly more kinetic energy than manual bows, crossbows are unwieldy, and slow to reload; they become slower the more kinetic energy they transfer to the bolt. They're like the tasers to a full bow's rifle.
Whereas archery can be extremely fast, if you use the right technique; as demonstrated by this video. The only drawback* is that it takes ten years to learn...

Since fighting is basically about knowing one more trick than your opponent, to give her the edge, some simple elemental magics might be useful; fire magic and archery are a great combination (especially if you hail from Lymcrest. Fire magic has never caused any problems there), while creating darkness means it would take no less than Faust to catch an arrow out of the air without being able to see it coming.
Unless it's on fire. Then it's pretty obvious that it's coming, but on the bright side*, it burns the catcher's hand.


*puns intended
DF MQ  Post #: 16
2/13/2018 10:57:07   
Greyor_42
Member

@dragon_monster

quote:


Yes it kinda does also if everybody can use magic then in the Shapless empire people will not have to run with their children when they display magic because there taken from them, or are stopped from advancing in the government of that said empire because they can not use magic. Or are used as living batteries. It more common to not use magic for humans then to use. San Robin is like an average human like the most of them but titles himself of an hero and he might be ashamed of his limitations.


Bad example for three reasons. One, rare does not equal nonexistent. It just means not common. I never said everyone can use magic. Just that most people can(and for the record, how many confirmed ignominious are there, and how many of them were actually people who couldn't use magic, because, if you recall, that's also a fate for criminals). Secondly, I specifically said "in Greenguard". I don't recall the Shapeless Empire being in Greenguard. And finally, San Robin wasn't hiding his mana impairment from just the hero, he was hiding it from everyone, since before the hero was even around(it's his Deep Dark Secret, after all, and a major part of his backstory, so clearly he's been hiding it for quite a while). The reason the hero wasn't off-put by it wasn't because not being able to use magic is common(which it isn't), but because they're from Greenguard where that is a non-issue.

Also, you still haven't answered my question: Where did Dove say that magic could be "unlocked"?

quote:


Now I must thank you about something I was pressed to find examples where the apprentice is expected to surpass his master. But you gave me one Kenichi is expected to surpass his masters especially the old guy and the strongest of them but not only that one the one with the contraptions for training also expects him to surpass him and he does want to do that. Do you think Kenichi is evil or ambitious for that?
Not really but he still tries.

Still not a case of him surpassing his master. Defeating in combat does not equal surpassing. In fact, it was hinted at relatively early on exactly how he beat the grand elder(which is only actually implied, not confirmed), which is that for whatever reason, the grand elder was distracted, and thus couldn't fight properly. Furthermore, "wanting to surpass the teacher/wanting to be surpassed by the student", as I stated is pretty much only successful if said student is particularly ambitious or evil, not that that desire only occurs when the student is ambitious or evil(though Kenichi admittedly was quite ambitious, it was just a innocent ambition of wanting to protect people from bullies). And that's exactly where that part of the conversation is going to end, because it is otherwise off-topic, and I don't want to spend five pages on it.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 2/13/2018 11:00:08 >
DF  Post #: 17
2/13/2018 11:16:31   
dragon_monster
Member

quote:

Bad example for three reasons. One, rare does not equal nonexistent. It just means not common. I never said everyone can use magic. Just that most people can(and for the record, how many confirmed ignominious are there, and how many of them were actually people who couldn't use magic, because, if you recall, that's also a fate for criminals). Secondly, I specifically said "in Greenguard". I don't recall the Shapeless Empire being in Greenguard. And finally, San Robin wasn't hiding his mana impairment from just the hero, he was hiding it from everyone, since before the hero was even around(it's his Deep Dark Secret, after all, and a major part of his backstory, so clearly he's been hiding it for quite a while). The reason the hero wasn't off-put by it wasn't because not being able to use magic is common(which it isn't), but because they're from Greenguard where that is a non-issue.
There an lot of examples not one. Like most people you meet can not use magic really now that is why the Hero was not really off put by San Robin. Also there on the same planet there no biologically different so my example of the Shapless empire works. Most people can not use magic. Many of our friends can not use magic Robina, Galanoth, Valencia, Symone. That is why the hero was not off put by San Robin.

quote:

Also, you still haven't answered my question: Where did Dove say that magic could be "unlocked"?

It might be written in the some thread made for us to write things so we do not get to these discussions. The problem is I do not remember the name, the thread OP, where it is and that is kinda an issue I know it exists I do not know how to find it. If someone knows the location of the directory I appreciate it.

quote:

Still not a case of him surpassing his master. Defeating in combat does not equal surpassing. In fact, it was hinted at relatively early on exactly how he beat the grand elder(which is only actually implied, not confirmed), which is that for whatever reason, the grand elder was distracted, and thus couldn't fight properly. Furthermore, "wanting to surpass the teacher/wanting to be surpassed by the student", as I stated is pretty much only successful if said student is particularly ambitious or evil, not that that desire only occurs when the student is ambitious or evil(though Kenichi admittedly was quite ambitious, it was just a innocent ambition of wanting to protect people from bullies). And that's exactly where that part of the conversation is going to end, because it is otherwise off-topic, and I don't want to spend five pages on it.


Who cares about the grand master the others also expected him to surpass them and said it and he agreed. I am drawing blank in master apprentice works in fictions now but hell if you know more pretty sure the same was there also. One of them want to surpass the other or both do. Come on now does it not make more sense to compare an work of fiction with another work of fiction especially if both are in an magical or supernatural setting.
Also if real world must be involved lets not compare an billionaire having an apprentice who also wants to be and billionaire because that hardly happens and compare an martial artist with his apprentice.

< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 2/13/2018 12:02:30 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 18
2/13/2018 11:44:03   
Greyor_42
Member

@Dragon_monster

quote:

Who cares about the grand master the others also expected him to surpass them and said it and he agreed. I am drawing blank in master apprentice works in fictions now but hell if you know more pretty sure the same was there also. One of them want to surpass the other or both do. Come on now does it not make more sense to compare an work of fiction with another work of fiction especially if both are in an magical or supernatural setting.

I was referring specifically to fiction. Most students don't seek teachers in the anticipation of surpassing them, but simply to learn from them(again, primary exception is someone who is either exceedingly ambitious, or exceedingly evil, of which Falwynn is neither. She's just a fangirl who wants to very specifically follow in her hero's footsteps) . Most teachers don't take in students to be surpassed, but simply to train them if they feel the student is worthy in some way, unless it's very specifically to be a successor, and that's almost always(99.999999% of the time) done very specifically when the teacher has retired from their line of work, and need to pass the title down(which the hero isn't. They're just training her so she'll be able to achieve her dream and go on adventures with proper training, and be a potential ally). Any other situation, the teacher being surpassed is completely unintentional, and almost entirely because the student is just naturally that good at what they were being taught.
DF  Post #: 19
2/13/2018 12:01:17   
dragon_monster
Member

quote:

I was referring specifically to fiction. Most students don't seek teachers in the anticipation of surpassing them, but simply to learn from them(again, primary exception is someone who is either exceedingly ambitious, or exceedingly evil, of which Falwynn is neither. She's just a fangirl who wants to very specifically follow in her hero's footsteps) . Most teachers don't take in students to be surpassed, but simply to train them if they feel the student is worthy in some way, unless it's very specifically to be a successor, and that's almost always(99.999999% of the time) done very specifically when the teacher has retired from their line of work, and need to pass the title down(which the hero isn't. They're just training her so she'll be able to achieve her dream and go on adventures with proper training, and be a potential ally). Any other situation, the teacher being surpassed is completely unintentional, and almost entirely because the student is just naturally that good at what they were being taught.


Well the Kenichi whatever thing the masters want him to surpass him and do not expect him to be their successors. How do you explain that? Drizzt from Forggoten Realms when he was trained by his father pretty sure his father wanted Drizzt to surpass and he did. Drow's live for hundreds of years long time until he retired. He just wanted his son to surpass him.

Anyway I am confident teachers teach their students with the hope the students will surpass them one day. If it happens or not does not matter in this case we are trying to make it happen.
It can not happen if Fal can not use magic that is why giving her an shard of the ultimate orb can really help.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 20
2/13/2018 12:03:10   
Shiny_Underpants
Member

I'm just going to drop in here with this quote from Leonardo Da Vinci:
"Poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master."

That being said, what you learn is subjective. In whatever trade you take, there are thousands of small, obscure details that students will never acquire; they will acquire their own obscure details, which will serve better in some situations and worse in others.
Indeed, the natural counter to the Da Vinci quote is that there is always something to learn.

quote:

~original: @Greyor_42
She's just a fangirl who wants to very specifically follow in her hero's footsteps

Is that really Falwynn's motivation? Perhaps she was just restless?

I'm still not entirely clear on what 'surpassing' the Hero would mean, exactly. We don't have one specific function, other than to serve as the epicentre of stories of various length.
DF MQ  Post #: 21
2/13/2018 12:25:00   
dragon_monster
Member

Oh this is good see Da Vinci wanted his students to surpass him. As I said teachers want students to surpass them if they do or not well that is another problem.

But what will it mean Falwynn should surpass the hero well its for her to become an even bigger fixture then the hero. The hero for now is like Green Arrow for his city we are for Greenguard we are important source of justice and good and also act as an deterrent. Well then the girl should become an bigger figure then the hero for an larger area why Greenguard only why not the the entire Draconia or even Alzavyr or the name of the eastern continent. Now that is surpassing and to do that you need to be more powerful so that you can do what the hero can not do.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 22
2/13/2018 12:35:21   
rater202
Member

Considering that the Hero has saved the entire World at least once, I'd argue that we're a bit closer to Superman than Green Arrow.
AQ DF  Post #: 23
2/13/2018 12:38:27   
dragon_monster
Member

Can we be Batman then? Mostly do Gotham but save the world from time to time?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 24
2/14/2018 3:34:53   
LurkBlackSmith
Member

Since we're know Falwynn is normal, then a pair of launchable, reusable, detachable chained mini flails on the waist sides or arm attachements? Kinda like that certain 3d flying tool and weapon gear combo,except "improvised" and with a lot of buttons?! Our help forging it out of leftover metal scraps and chain to Lim reminding us the request of ores from Lyrmcrest in return of making the temptation smashable button launcher flails? Falwynn wonders what buttons does stuff and leading her and our hero testing it getting smacked on the forehead by fired mini flail. Most likely on the first attempt parried on second attempt and plain missed on the third to last attempt. On the other hand we place our weapons or mage magic cushion above her head just if she launched it just up into the air and it falls back down easy and fast because of the unpredictable wind.

On the other hand, since she's normal, we can't get rave master's Elie's tonfa blasters parody. So I'm thinking of the manga with its first or third chapter(Forgot the name) with a female clumsy,cute ninja main character that needed money and advancement decided to use all the last resort super mini cherry explosives instead that pack a bang to get out of the troubled corner. Resulting in the building she was running away from within because it was her first mission after being grounded for extreme messy results. One used was on a bad chosen pillar to make the building collapse, and the ear recon worker said it cost like a lot of money to rebuild that building afterwards. So a lesser kind with us going to Osprey cove for Falwynn's explosives then to shadow of the wind village to modify.

< Message edited by LurkBlackSmith -- 2/14/2018 4:31:47 >
DF  Post #: 25
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