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RE: =DF= Design Notes March 2: The Primordial Challenge

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3/8/2018 6:19:56   

^Even with the Crawler, I noticed this. Randomness is incredibly high in the challenges...
The Crawler had this ridiculous crit chance, making its multi-skill able to do insane amounts of damage; which was completely unable to be predicted.

In this challenge, the squirrel can randomly disrupt combos against Uthuluc and itself, with no particular warning. If you've got a damage buff, it'll remove it...
Given that the only real way to defeat Uthuluc is to use these very effects, I'm not sure there's any merit to be gained from something so random, unless you can completely curbstomp it (see; the Baron).
Many of these strategies involve rare gear, however.

Edit: to put this in some perspective, I just completed the Crawler+Abomination.
In the process, after maxing my all resistance and poison resistance with non-rares, the Abomination used its nuke. I had 2 health remaining after that (before hero-dieting my way out). Despite doing all the preparation possible (admittedly for my level), it was still pure luck...

Edit 2: @below
Aeon (the writer of the Six Heroes saga) actually pointed that out in the DNS. At the time, I daresay there weren't any plans to make it a Lovecraftian tentacle monster (although you can never have too many tentacles, so who knows...).
It's interesting when the writers of games actually play them.

< Message edited by Shiny_Underpants -- 3/8/2018 7:51:50 >
DF MQ  Post #: 301
3/8/2018 7:41:56   

Okay, guys, there’s something I need you to see.

Sciuridaehotep, or Annoying “No” squirrel, is NOT introduced in “The Apprentice” quest.
This annoying Tentacle Witch Monster Squirrels had first been introduced WAAAAAAAAY back in book 1.
I want you all to experience this for yourself because it was the biggest surprise to me, but I will let you know that this is in one of Galanoth’s Non-Random Quests, part of the ice orb saga.

The first time I saw this, I was mindblown. The theories that Sciuridaehotep was just added as a little pointer to the Falwynn Quest are false- it appeared, and hella disrupted an event longer ago!


Edit: Okay, it wasn’t “hella disruption”, but dramatism.
Also, it was never planned to be a lovecraftian tentacle monster, even right from the ice orb where it was dropped as a joke. They just did it to reference someting like all the other challenges, like bearingion and one punch man.

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 3/8/2018 8:00:06 >
DF  Post #: 302
3/8/2018 8:02:13   

In addition to references to DF, there are references to other game franchises in every Six Heroes quest. But of course, Artix Entertainment games are full of references to other media, and this probably contributed significantly to their popularity.
DF MQ  Post #: 303
3/8/2018 8:18:39   

Yeah, you’re right, and it’s amazing to find all of these in the game. It’s almost Immersive and keeps you into the games. If I’m being honest, if they advertised the game, revamped Oaklore bk 1, Falconreach bk 1 and some other aspects of book 1 like how Zhoom doesn’t have a shadow, I bet we’d have atleast a thousand, at minimum, regular players, and trust me, they’d not be wrong to continue playing.

Also, for those who have trouble with the Big & Small, the Sentogs have a set skill rotation. I don’t know what it exactly is, but you could fight them with a defensive class like exosuit or dragonlord and find out.

By the way, why is the Uthuluc and Sciuridaehotep challenge not called the Big and Small? Also, vice versa, since the sentogs and Dave are likely acquainted, couldn’t Dave technically make them Primordial (immortal) with this fancy time magic? The challenges would have worked better with the changed names, but The Primordials does suit Sciuridaehotep (my absolute fave). (Oh, and Uthuluc’s Simulacrum, too.) But the big and small naming is just a “No.” in Serif Font.

P.S. now the tentacles charge up in 5 turns, i have given your skills a +10 cooldown and removed all your buffs including your +200 B/P/D which was for 5 turns. “No existence.”

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 3/8/2018 8:19:30 >
DF  Post #: 304
3/8/2018 8:28:55   

The references are often fun, although sometimes I found that they detracted a little from the storyline in some of the past quests. With the focus on narrative design aspects in recent years, this hasn't really been an issue in this game.

The game seems to have some 10,000-ish players, if wars are anything to go by. However, infrequent updates from understaffing tend to create on/off players, so who knows...
1,000 players couldn't support the devs,

That sounds wrong, in the single challenge at least, Sciuridaehotep should only apply a +1 or +2 cooldown.

These challenge threads are almost starting to resemble war threads. They're sort of halfway there, with only a smaller number of players actually engaging, and posting less frequently due to how long the challenges take to complete.

While they seem to have taken the place of wars, it could be interesting if challenges were introduced as components of wars...

< Message edited by Shiny_Underpants -- 3/8/2018 8:31:53 >
DF MQ  Post #: 305
3/8/2018 9:02:08   

Yeah, you’re right. It only applies a 1 turn cooldown to usable skills and 2 turns to skills that are on cooldown. But, you know, when you’re actually playing it, you, obviously feel different.

About the wars, I think there are around 500 or so players, as Dove once exclaimed at the time of Black Winter that he had never seen so many people online as 563 players were. However, I might be very wrong, too, as people all don’t play at the same time.

If the single fights were about as easy as the Siofra/Theano individual challenge was, to the point where Non-DA players could beat them with a moderate amount of skill and effort, and the combined challenges were as hard as the Weird Duo, but still very do-able, and the rewards offered a Non-DA and DA option of each for the rewards of the individual challenge, and they were the best Non-DA items (like Isandel, The Great Grey One, and Dreadwyrm Katana), I feel there will be more discussion on these topics. With the excitement nutured from this, others would love to try them out as well. The only reason I was determined to finish the Primordials, was because Baby Chimera was a little cutie (and OP), too! This also helps with what you stated earlier about the fights being very RNG based. At this point, I’m Fortunate enough to not have a picture of some anime girl in a frame with a cup of liquified time energy I’ve used up and having it labelled the RNG shrine. She STILL wouldn’t favour me, though.

I feel like, with reimagined series could come a new inn update. Imagine they revamp the Sandsea. They go through the bosses, and add something like a reskinned, resized Anubis and a Sunspike or maybe even Sek-Duat, and make them harder (and more relevant). I’m also looking forward to a titan challenges board, and that would be very hard and strategy oriented. This would hype the reimagination-mongers and the challengers of the edge of time at the same time (but this is easier said) while being able to drop 3 other uploads for the ones that love updates. Also, Friday the 13th and other war bosses and mini-bosses could integrate for good challenges like the Cauldron Groupies and Jack, as you said. The Gnarly Guitar of Doom Grind could’ve been an Edge of Time Grind, but the way that’s been done into the war boss (with the secret shop) is completely fine, too!

We also need more farming items at the Edge of Time so as to keep players immersed in the experience of the game throughout the week.

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 3/8/2018 9:42:11 >
DF  Post #: 306
3/8/2018 9:18:07   

^I don't know, I find farming reduces my engagement (although, as a rare occurrence, I am farming in the Timetorn matrix right now, hence four consecutive posts. I really want that Otherworldy Amalgamation to stop filling up my inventory space). That's what I like about the challenges, for the most part; you can get end-game gear through skill, not sheer farming (although preparation for the challenges requires farming as well).

I think even if the challenges were more predictable (such as the crawler having zero luck, and therefore zero crit), the difficulty tier could be raised significantly without as much issue, since players would have a fairer indication of what the challenges entail; and a winning strategy (if not a purely cheese one) would work without the blessing of the RNG gods.

The playercount in question was only a tally of the free (non-DA) server, and that was at a single time. Our estimates of the Black Winter maximum wave per minute count (where players from a 20-hour period, which in turn comprised the majority of the game's audience, all forwent sleep in a bid to finish the war a day early) situated the figure as at least 6,000. Some other analysis indicated that it was more likely between 8 and 10 thousand.

Liquified time energy xD

< Message edited by Shiny_Underpants -- 3/8/2018 9:54:30 >
DF MQ  Post #: 307
3/8/2018 9:44:36   
Shadow X Ascendant

I highly agreed with farming areas, really look, in this challenges you win just one challenge boss, get the reward and never comes back, that isn't funny, a single fight takes what 10-20 minutes? Each release 1 week, what we will do until next release? And only the ones with most op equips can beat, i never seen a Non-DA player have any chance in these challenges, now the TimeTorn Matrix, you explore a Large huge area collection fragments, fighting elementals even mimics as hard bosses if you don't stun them, that is a way to bind players to the game, they stay hours and hours playing to get the item. And they CAN get if they work hard, even if they are non-DA

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 3/8/2018 9:46:23 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 308
3/8/2018 9:57:16   

Yeah, I removed them! Sorry! <—- this is because i said something a little too graphic for a PG 13 chat. It’s all fixed now :p

Also, I think RNG stands for Random Number Godess, so another “gods” is kinda weird!

No, but the challenges should not have clear indications as to what they offer: that is to be found out or read on the forums :P

Luckily, we have a weapon on our side in San Robin to dispose of the Cheese (and probably classify them as fruits, vegetables, or “No.”)

Also, I think you’d know this, but always set the boss room as your checkpoint and then explore everywhere else, so you can find the Timetorn Shards. If you are playing on the Medium or Huge Matrix, then don’t convert your Bladehilts or Warblades into Teleshards as the whole Necro Paragon Blade at Level 80 gives you a whopping 20,000 gold, which is slightly lesser than the selling of the gold Dragonlord artifacts.

I feel like you should be able to sell your Edge of Time rewards for DragonCoins, like the Squirrel Tentacle I would be for 10 DCs, its upgrades for 20, the Baby Chimera for 40, amd so on. It would add some immersion, and also counters having to pay an insane amount of money for the best weapons, and since levels change, newer equipment.

Also, I think they should have more restricted shops, such as the Primordials, which you could open only after beating them, which would also add some intrigue. Good luck with farming!

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 3/8/2018 12:04:44 >
DF  Post #: 309
3/8/2018 10:04:45   

I think they should add small little events to farming areas. For example, a little SKIPPABLE cutscene which just shows the player meeting the boss of either a normal or maze challenge, though normal is hard to say. The bosses could be different per round, or even for the mimics or mini-bosses. There could be more of the Telepoint Features to newer endless Edge of Time Quests. Sielu and his corresponding essence quests could be moved to the Edge of Time. Also, the Inn at The Edge of Time could be more interactive, by which I don’t mean the Rumormonger. There could be different areas where quests are available, making it so that you are helping yourself from another timeline, or something. More farming areas should be added, duh, but also alternate uses for the drops from quests: the ultimate blade pieces from Theano could be used to upgrade the Falconreach Glory Weapons from wars.

Unrelated, but I also feel like when we get the Fleshweaver, it should be stronger than BSW, which you have to sacrifice for it, and should be able to do all of the BSW Edge of Time challenges easier.

Wow, I sound like a Gordon Ramsay clone, but trust me, its for the betterment of a game I really love.

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 3/8/2018 12:05:56 >
DF  Post #: 310
3/8/2018 10:49:06   

RNG is an acronym that stand for an actual programming function: Random Number Generator.

I do agree with a number of your ideas, actually. The locked rewards(until you actually beat the challenge, of course) makes alot of sense to me, for example.
DF  Post #: 311
3/8/2018 10:50:46   

Thanks for the heads up, I did not know that. I may end up converting them anyway though, since there's no way I'm trawling through the medium timetorn matrix again...
If I may add to that, collecting teleshards should only be done in the first; there are the same amount of them in the medium sized challenge, meaning that they're spaced less frequently.
One more Teleshard to go *weakly fistbumps the air
DF MQ  Post #: 312
3/8/2018 11:49:19   

^^^ I actually really like the idea of a little cutscene showing our hero reacting to the normal challenge bosses, would add some personality to both us and the boss, but that may go beyond the scope of the “simple to design and program” challenge filler
Post #: 313
3/8/2018 11:55:47   


Actually, my sources were Urban Dictionary, and that’s not exactly reliable...
By the way, I really hoped the staff would’ve added a 150 or so resistance to ice, s that the IBR strategy would only take it to +50 All, making the whole battle seem less biased toward Master DoomKnights. I’ve tried with SoulWeaver, like, 25 times, and I found it hard to get inflict Sundered Chitin on the Simulacrum of Uthuluc. Granted, I didn’t use Slash and Vaccuum, but Soulweaver eats mana, and cannot recover. SoulWeaver is amazing for the individual challenges, but particularly suffers in where it has a weak DoT, it can only mitigate high damage through Valour Impact and Synch. Tron Legacy on YouTube has done it, but I doubt I have the patience for that.


Do the Small Matrix for best results including less time, less loss in health and mana and less loss in sanity, though HP/MP shouldn’t be a problem with the Teleport to Start and Telepoints features.

Yeah, It would be a good place for developer humour and references, which the games are full of. It could even be something like:

Player: So, you’re the mighty Uthuluc, the one that my Soul-Ally Banished after Pandora released you...
Uthuluc: cdvjhggffg’ gfhh’ggt fghjgn dgfhbftf yghvfdffbv ihjbrt gyfgdfd mkhhdd’hu
(With Kathool Adept Armor on): Oh, this is just a Simulacrum of my true self... I doubt weak peasents like you will be able to waive my threads in your favour in this form... Just forget my true form. But alas... I love the feeling of... Devour... Protect... Surrender...

But that’s just my idea. With writers like Aeon and many others, I bet something more special could be mustered up.

In General:
I really don’t want DragonFable to feel like a pure p2w game, even if the challenges aren’t for everyone. By the way, which level 25 was lucky enough, or would be lucky enough t even crack the chitin ONCE and get the Squirrel Tentacle? Nobody. It’s just a matter of being a Random Number God, or else you wouldn’t even be able to get them. Though it is established that the Inn at the Edge of Time is not for everyone, who WOULDN’T want to get the best gear? See, the Original Dragon Challenges were hard, but fun. The new ones are hard and frustrating. The Inn at the Edge of time is one of my favourite things about the game. The reason the dragon challenges were captivating is because there was enough organic creativity in them. You could experiment and learn your classes better, which is a nice feature for Non-DAs. See, you could get the Isandel/Great Grey One/Dreadwyrm Katana at their first stage levels, but not the Squirrel Tentacle or the Void Chitin Ring (and notably others too). I also think they should make the Necro Paragon Armor skillset fully available, to make it feel like they’ve earned it.

See, the Uthuluc and Sciuridaehotep were very easy on their own, but together, they seem to be p2w battles.

I swear I’m not Gordon Ramsay, and this is just constructive criticism, though it may not sound so.

Edit: Also, a huge thanks to everyone who acknowledges my ideas, it’s very much appreciated! Now I want to know what the devs (who are literally gods, because humans cannot make such great things) Verly and Dove-pai, and the rest, think.

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 3/8/2018 12:14:07 >
DF  Post #: 314
3/8/2018 12:47:59   

So far with the challenges, I've been attempting them without any rare or DC items (in part because I haven't mustered the funds for such things), so it'll be an interesting experiment to see whether they're doable. I do have a DA though.
About the gear being level 25, I was thinking about that, and I have an alt at that precise level that's designed specifically to be overpowered (I'm talking full Potion Mastery farming, level 24 Destiny weapon, not too shabby other equipment...). That'll be especially interesting for me, because it's an impossible challenge that Baron Dante probably can't do (and do better, on extreme mode, and in angler), due to having high level alts.
From a design perspective, it's better to have things equippable at insignificant levels with dc tags than just a non-equippable item.
DF MQ  Post #: 315
3/8/2018 13:01:08   

Is there a question and answer thread for stuff that probably isn't worth a new thread?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 316
3/8/2018 13:07:56   

But then I don’t get why they’d have a level 45 and 65 upgrade- you don’t even need to get those prior to the level 85. The only people that got them would be the ones on the Pedia, and even that is for information purposes.
And don’t question Baron Dante, he might be able to do it. Sadly, he’s on hiatus.
And I do them with Non-Rare and Non-DC items too. Even though I have DmK, I never liked using it. I don’t like having an edge over others purely because I paid 65-80$ depending on which set you purchased.
If you do complete the challenge, could you send me a pic? Also, I recommend the Dimensional Transphaser, as that can be bought from Ballyhoo Ads.
Could you also tell me how you obtained an Otherworldly Amalgamation? I used the ShadowWalker of Time Preview, and I don’t own that, so I feel like I’m unworthy of it...

What would you like to ask, @kurtz96? That way someone could answer you or link something to you :p

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 3/8/2018 13:10:03 >
DF  Post #: 317
3/8/2018 13:20:11   

I wanted to know if the last two guest spots in the book of lore would be filled.

The two most useful guests not on the list are Sir Leon and Mithra (both of them have been useful for challenges so far)
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 318
3/8/2018 13:27:19   
Shadow X Ascendant

@BluuHorseOfficial, The Otherwordly Amalgamation, is very simple to get. The Legion Badge is for beating Legion Crawler , And Rotten Essence is for beating The Abomination, Then only merge them into Otherwordly Amalgamation, pretty simple. I beated them with DeathKnight.

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 3/8/2018 13:28:12 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 319
3/8/2018 14:05:55   

About the guest spots, the develpoers are yet to add the two most requested guests, but for now, no update has been made. You could very well ask @VerlyrusAE on Twitter as that is the place you will most likely get your answer.

Oh, and, yeah, I meant the Legion Bracer from the duo. It was a mistake. I do have it, but as I said, it doesn’t feel right to me. Could you give me some useful tips on beating them? I already have a high poison resistance above 50. Thanks! I’m pretty sure that the Eternal Locket is just as powerful, so I may use that if I get it, too.

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 3/8/2018 14:08:21 >
DF  Post #: 320
3/8/2018 14:08:36   
Shadow X Ascendant

I beated with DeathKnight , Aegis Book 3 and Mithra, Just Stun Lock on Abomination and Kill Crawler first. I think i will start searching for soundtracks for each Inn challenge.

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 3/8/2018 19:42:07 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 321
3/8/2018 21:56:36   

I used Master Soulweaver for the double challenge. It has a fairly solid defensive rotation, with plenty of debuffs; and healing isn't an issue, since with four potions and Hero-diet, there isn't much risk of running out of health if you plan properly. Soul Vacuum also has a chance of stunning, though my strategy didn't rely on it. Additionally, using soul banish when the opponents were on 15% health speeds things up.
In terms of resists, weapons with poison resistance are actually far inferior to weapons with All resistance. In light of this, the Ultra Omniknight Blade has 13 All resist, setting it at the top in that regard; and, you only need to complete a single quest to unlock it.
For specific poison resistance, I used Summon Honda, and the Poison Ward Amulet IV. I also used the Necro Paragon cape, which also gives excellent All resistance; I believe it should be 10 at the cap.
And, of course, the Uthuluc drop (Void Chitin band?) has the highest All resist of any ring.
All up, if you're a level capped player (sans Void ring), that should be 23 All resist, and 38 specific poison resistance, totaling 61 resistance to poison attacks (I had half the amount of All resistance).
This was just stuff that's easy to acquire. If you want more detail, you can reference Pedrofire's Complete Accessory List.

In truth, the Abomination's nuke is only a one-shot if you have guests. I only used them because I couldn't defeat the Crawler otherwise.
The guest occupying slot 1 tends to be targeted more than slot 2, for some reason. Since Artix makes a better meat-shield than Aegis (who can't even restore all his health), acquiring Aegis from the War at the Core quest (thereby occupying slot 2) is very helpful.
The Crawler's attack pattern is some fairly strong normal attacks (a single hit, or a three hit beam), with a Crawler-slam on every alternating term. Each time the Crawler uses its repeated slam skill, it adds a single hit from the previous one. In light of this, shields and blinds to the Crawler should be applied only when it's about to use its slam attack.
As far as I'm aware, the Abomination won't use its nuke when its health is above 3/4, so it shouldn't be attacked until the Crawler is dealt with. Additionally, its nuke has a cooldown (although I haven't counted the number of turns).

Sadly, my computer is not very good, so I can't record or anything, but I'll see about taking a screenshot just before beating the challenge (although you can just check the inventory/bank if I provide the character page).

Edit: @below
Just so you know, my strategy for the Crawler+Centaur (skill rotation incl. debuffs) I used would be pretty useless with Baltael Soulweaver. Not to say BSW won't necessarily work, but Master Soulweaver is my preference (it's also more powerful than BSW overall).
I don't know about BSW for Primordials, but Ranger certainly works wonders on their individual challenges.

< Message edited by Shiny_Underpants -- 3/8/2018 23:09:08 >
DF MQ  Post #: 322
3/8/2018 22:49:41   

Yeah, thanks so much! I already have a lot of gear with poison resistance, so it should not be tricky. I will try both strategies-DK and BSW.

Is there a good set skill rotation for BSW or MSW on the Primordials challenge? Just curious, I feel like it may be worth a shot.

Edit @below
Yeah, Master is better in damage, but Baltael is better defensively, so I think they might both work in the Legion Duo Challenge. For the Primordials, though, The ranger gets an extra attack and around a 3x crit damage multiplier, too, but the BSW works better than the ranger as the BSW has a two-hit attack, so with 111 crit like I did, you should hit 55.5% of the time, two times. Also, if you break the chitin with Valour impact, or better, soul pierce, you’ll be able to dish out massive damage. BSW can also easily afflict a -55% PowerBoost with Soul Slash (the sword) and Soul Vaccuum, both of which hit twice, while the ranger has to lose its focus, which grants it extra turns every round to do so. Even better, at 15% health and a -100 All resistance, the foe can easily be annihilated with soul slice.

I got 111 crit with:

Shattered Blade (Fragmented blade would give you 121 crit, but I was too impatient)
Ultimate Blinding Light of Destiny (do i hav 2 xplane?)
Necro Paragon Cape (Doom Knight Cloak/Groundhog Wings would work, or Far Darrig IV for more crit)
Baltael’s Aventail (Sentog Helm or Necro Paragon Helm may work, or Belial’s Horrific Visage for even more crit)
Unhallowed Deathknight Amulet (Akriloth’s Bane for more crit)
Leorilla Mane Belt IV
Unhallowed Deathknight Circlet
Legion Bracer (Eternal Locket also works)
Spiked Leather Gauntlet (or Chi Blast/Runestone for Magic Def/Elemental Unity)

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 3/9/2018 2:24:24 >
DF  Post #: 323
3/9/2018 9:11:01   
Shadow X Ascendant

^^ well, i only managed to beat 'The Primordials" three times, using Baltael Soulweaver, And one weapon of each type of attack.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 324
3/9/2018 10:35:09   

Could I know the skill rotation you used for the Primordials? I tried really hard with BSW and couldn’t win, but I did with DoomKnight. Thanks in advance!
DF  Post #: 325
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