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RE: =DF= Design Notes March 2: The Primordial Challenge

 
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3/3/2018 15:06:27   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

well, i will wait Fleshweaver to be released first, before trying again, those fragments are in taking space from my bag... it's a little hard to clean the inventory,,,
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 76
3/3/2018 15:54:43   
s_venom
Member

I know I probably won't get an answer.
But why allow to use DMK V1 when the enemy was buffed to unbeatable levels against it?
If you want people not to use it then just don't allow it from the beginning, otherwise it just feels like a slap in the face.
AQ DF  Post #: 77
3/3/2018 15:57:33   
The ErosionSeeker
Member

"why are we not allowed to use v1 it's not fair"
"why is v1 allowed if the monster hard counters it it's not fair"
DF AQW  Post #: 78
3/3/2018 16:02:44   
OpprobriousPinecones
Member

That'll probably be quite a long time to wait, Shadow; especially without explicit confirmation that we'll be using the fragments for Fleshweaver.

Also

that moment when you inflict Uthuluc with sundered chitin


that moment when he immediately roars and defends himself with Presence

I'm trying a Nythera/Aegis/Soulweaver combo, by the way; my main issue seems to be that Uthuluc has a ridiculously easy time hitting through Aegis's shield or my Soul Aegis with his stun, him using the aforementioned Presence when I get enough crits to make him vulnerable, and Nythera lacking in the defensive department.

EDIT: @TheErosionSeeker

Well, let's be honest; they both basically accomplish the same thing. There's no point in using Doomknight V1 if whatever you're fighting against will just hit you with an inescapable one hit kill anyway.

< Message edited by OpprobriousPinecones -- 3/3/2018 16:10:18 >
Post #: 79
3/3/2018 16:07:43   
s_venom
Member

I do like this kind of responses :)
Point is DMK V1 was designed by the DF team and was offered in package so those who were interested in it could buy it and use it in game.
Those who bought it (me included) did it out of the desire to support the game and use said item/s in game (or so I would assume).
While the armor itself isn't balanced by the current standards of the game it was still offered as a viable option.
The use of said armor effect only the PvE experience and has no bearings on other players.
So exactly why allow it's use only to have it be completely counter productive?

Did anything I said was unreasonable? was I wrong somewhere in what I said?


_____________________________

AQ DF  Post #: 80
3/3/2018 16:13:39   
Bamzalot
Member

DKV1 is still usable because there is some potential that it could win. I am unsure if there is any known way to defeat the Primordials using it, but perhaps there is some specific way to do it. For example, the last challenge had the Sentog one hit kill V1. But people still found a way around it by using guests to stunlock and destroy them before the one hit kill could be used. The Primordials are different in that the chances of overpowering both bosses (one of them three times in a row) makes that task far harder than against the Sentog.

I am not saying that V1 can absolutely win this. I just wanted to point out that it is usable because there might be some way to pull it off. If Verlyrus really didn't want people to use V1, he could have just had you die immediately upon starting the battle rather than give you a sliver of a fighting chance. Or maybe my thoughts are wrong and Verlyrus is just a sadist who wants to see Doom users be teased with a hint of possibility before they are inevitably crushed.

It would probably be worse if V1 could be used at its full potential as it would undeniably turn the challenge into a "Pay to Win: Limited Edition." Life Carve is all it takes to guarantee a swift and effortless victory the likes that not even the new DoomKnight could ever hope to pull off. But I guess that is what people paid for, so I can understand why this situation is infuriating.

Regardless, the true key to winning this challenge is planning, a good strategy, countless retries, and a whole lot of luck. And not the stat either.
Post #: 81
3/3/2018 16:15:17   
OpprobriousPinecones
Member

I'm completely with you on this, s_venom; while I understand how powerful Doomknight V1 is, I'm having a hard time justifying a mechanic that makes it completely unusable during the fight; I mean, come on. We paid money for this.

I could understand the enemy powering up so maybe Doomknight can't completely destroy it (such as the Doom Amulet resonating with your armor during Black Winter), because, again, Doomknight V1 is extremely powerful, but it seems borderline spiteful to allow us to use it when it was previously restricted, only to instantly kill us and prevent us from using it anyway.
Post #: 82
3/3/2018 16:16:53   
Greyor_42
Member

^

Erosionseeker just told you why it was allowed. People kept complaining that it was unfair they weren't originally allowed to use it.

As verly said, these are supposed to be challenge fights, not "life carve your way to victory" fights(and yes, that is paraphrasing). Furthermore, I believe that the deterrent is in place in this specific fight because one specific enemy in it is one that you're not supposed to be able to beat, and Doomknight V1's life carve's secondary effect ignore's both B/P/D and M/P/M, last I recall, as it removes a percentage of the enemy's health regardless of if it hits. Which would mean that without the deterrent, one could effectively kill the witness, an enemy that, as I said before, you're not supposed to defeat.

It's not so much that doomknight would "destroy" this fight, it's more that it would break the fight's entire main mechanic.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 3/3/2018 16:19:57 >
DF  Post #: 83
3/3/2018 16:22:01   
s_venom
Member

Bamzalot
I entirely agree with your last part.
It took me a bit before I defeated those two, although fighting them together... well that I have yet to manage.

My point is that when you design a monster to specifically hard-counter one armor, what's the point in allowing people to use it anyway?
True that there were ways to somehow defeat the other challenge bosses, but why ?
If the staff is so against this then just decrease the item drop rate when using DMK V1 or something (if it really bothers them that people are using it).

Again, I just find it quite silly that you purposefully tell to a section of players that support this game that their choice doesn't matter and we must play as the staff dictate despite the face they were the one who offered us this option.

OpprobriousPinecones
It does feel a bit like spite...
Honestly I really love this game, I just wish I don't have to sit and defend why I want to use an item I bought with real money.
It feels so bizarre.

Greyor_42
I can understand that they wish to keep the fight challenging and all, but again why force us?
If we want we will use different armors and If we don't want then we don't.
does this seem so unreasonable?



< Message edited by s_venom -- 3/3/2018 16:28:46 >
AQ DF  Post #: 84
3/3/2018 16:25:59   
OpprobriousPinecones
Member

That's a fair and valid point you raise, Greyor, though I do feel, at least in the Witnesses case, that there could easily be a regeneration mechanic implemented in response to Doomknight V1 (I say this because from Uthuluc I can tell that there exists coding that allows certain abilities and actions in response to lowered health). Mentioning Uthuluc, though, I can see what you mean.

If that's the case, though, what's the deal with the Super Sentog?

^ I think what Greyor's trying to say isn't that Doomknight V1 would make the fight less challenging, and more that Doomknight V1 kind of sidesteps the entire idea behind the fight.

< Message edited by OpprobriousPinecones -- 3/3/2018 16:31:20 >
Post #: 85
3/3/2018 16:43:14   
s_venom
Member

^I understand that point and while true, doesn't exactly negate the point of why force people?
You want to see what the fight offers, choose a different armor, you don't? go ahead and use what you want.

Who is getting hurt by this?
AQ DF  Post #: 86
3/3/2018 16:50:12   
OpprobriousPinecones
Member

I suppose it's less of a matter of "If you want to see what the fight offers then don't use Doomknight V1" and more a matter of "You can't expect to have all of the reward with none of the challenge, so don't use Doomknight V1". The perceived issue with using Doomknight V1, I imagine, is so other people don't get to enjoy the game to an unfair capacity in comparison to other players.
Post #: 87
3/3/2018 16:54:30   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat


Hey there!

Based on feedback, I've made it so you can't enter the most recent challenges with the restricted classes. It's a fair point that it does feel pretty awful to go in with a certain class only to get obliterated. It doesn't tell you anything about the fight, nor does it provide any meaningful gameplay.

Addressing the restriction of certain classes:
The point of the challenges is to be, well, challenging.

DoomKnight V1 can beat every single fight in the game just by spamming a single skill.

There are multiple challenges where I have DoomKnight V1 allowed, but some I choose not to due to mechanics that take a lot of effort to create.

It also allows me to make powerful rewards that feel earned and meaningful, as opposed to just being proof that a single skill was spammed.

The other option would be to nerf DoomKnight V1, but that is out of the question, as many players do enjoy using it. So we go with the other option- restrict its use in certain areas of the game.

We release content every week, and we hope that we can create content that players of many playstyles can enjoy. While you may not enjoy this particular week's content, I hope that you do enjoy other content that we release.

We really do appreciate the support that you all have given the game- we wouldn't be able to continue creating content without you.
AQ MQ  Post #: 88
3/3/2018 16:55:45   
s_venom
Member

I wonder wouldn't just changing the drop rate for the items be enough?
If Verlyrus need to code different triggers for DMK V1, then why just not make it harder to get the items?
And I mean 10% or so, so you would need to fight quite a bit to get it if you actually wanted that.
Should be enough of compromise, you can use the item you want, but you have to invest a lot more time.

Edit: Well it seems that it settles it then.
Verlyrus would you mind telling me if drastically lowering the drop rate on future fights is a viable option? (or even for this challenge fight?).

< Message edited by s_venom -- 3/3/2018 17:00:17 >
AQ DF  Post #: 89
3/3/2018 16:58:17   
Greyor_42
Member

quote:

If the staff is so against this then just decrease the item drop rate when using DMK V1 or something (if it really bothers them that people are using it).


Well, they tried offering workarounds as ways to let people use V1, but apparently, every single one was "too punishing", even just raising the cost of entering the multi-fights......

And remember, until quite recently, V1 was actually outright banned, in that you couldn't even get into the fight with it.


Don't get me wrong, I completely get where you're coming from, even though I don't own either V1 or V2, I can imagine how unfair it feels when it sems like a challenge is punishing you for even considering to use one specific armor, It's just that I also sort of get where the staff is coming from. There's just not really a functioning workaround for letting V1 access the fights that everyone is going to agree on. Either V1 users are going to feel discriminated against, or people who are against using V1 will feel like V1 is getting too much lee-way in a fight that's supposed to be challenging.

Now, as for "who's getting hurt by this?", I'd say verly, as he does put a lot of time and effort into these challenges. Wouldn't you say it's a bit unfair to him that some people want to just blast through the whole dang thing without taking the time to "see what it offers", as you put it?

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 3/3/2018 17:01:46 >
DF  Post #: 90
3/3/2018 17:03:22   
s_venom
Member

Greyor_42 : I am not a coder, but doesn't it take more work to insert this limitation then not?
I am not against challenge nor do I wish to remove it from the game. I just think there are different ways to compensate for it, like drop rate.
AQ DF  Post #: 91
3/3/2018 17:10:41   
Bamzalot
Member

With something like DMV1, lowering drop rates wouldn't be much of a compromise. That really wouldn't do much other than force V1 users to redo the fight repeatedly until they eventually get the drop they need. This would only make things tedious as players curb stomp the challenge until RNG says they have had enough. For some it could take them a long time, others it could be as simple as Life Carving away their adversaries once and be instantly rewarded for it.

I believe the best solution for V1 would be to allow it to be used in all challenges, but have some kind of passive nerf. Not to the level where it is completely useless, like it was for this challenge. Rather, something similar to the Doom Amulet where the monsters will be given significant buffs but not be unstoppable. If it was possible, it may be enough to reduce the effect that V1 Life Carve has on challenge monsters. Most other go-to skills V1 has would still face a significant challenge to the monsters if Life Carve was reduced in power. Perhaps they could cause it to have an increase cool down time?
Post #: 92
3/3/2018 17:11:01   
dragon_monster
Member

I think Greyor meant that its more like an pride thing. He made this to challenge us its an source of pride that we struggle to beat the challenges but Doom Knight version 1 destroys that thing so it sucks.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 93
3/3/2018 17:11:46   
Emrys
Member

To people who defeated the primordials with dmk v2, what was the strategy? Which guests/pets (if any) did you bring? how did you ensure crits agains uthuluc?

also does anyone know the exact requirements to break uthuluc's chitin?
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 94
3/3/2018 17:12:55   
OpprobriousPinecones
Member

@s_venom

It doesn't really seem like there's any unique animation to the anti-doomknight measures; they're just using pre-existing moves with vastly increased damage. It doesn't seem like that much work, and it seems that it's even possible to reuse some of the coding for each different limitations, I don't think it takes that much work, no.

As for drop rates? While I maintain that there could be other ways to compensate, that'd make the challenge ridiculously easy but tedious, which isn't really better. Or it'd once again sidestep the problem because one could just repeatedly stomp whatever challenge their facing, and just do it as easily as before if the item doesn't drop.

@Emrys

It seems like 4 critical hits 4 different turns is enough.

< Message edited by OpprobriousPinecones -- 3/3/2018 17:13:52 >
Post #: 95
3/3/2018 17:22:27   
Bamzalot
Member

A quick run down for DMV2: Bring Sir Leon and Book 3 Artix with you as guests. Stan Orb or 200 protection dragon are the ideal pets. Legendary_Sentinel's original strategy was to use Ritual on the Witness to have that ready for when Uthuluc's chitin was broken, then release everyone's most powerful attack to destroy it. Use Sir Leon to stun the squirrel whenever possible until Uthuluc is defeated. From there, you pay close attention to the Squirrel and wither it down. Make sure you use Corruption, Binding, Barrier, and other defenses to withstand the nuke on the third phase.

I deviated from the strategy a small amount by avoiding Corruption and Ritual to focus entirely on Blood Rite. The guaranteed crit allows you break down Uthuluc's chitin within 4 turns guaranteed. It allows you to deal some serious damage much quicker, as long as you find time to sneak in the Ritual and Inner Darkness just before the Chitin regenerates. Then I basically just brute forced my way through the Squirrel's phases and use Corruption on phase 3. By then, dealing with the nuke was easier, albeit I only won with a close call from my dragon making sure I didn't need to actually suffer the nuke.
Post #: 96
3/3/2018 17:29:36   
s_venom
Member

^Thanks.
AQ DF  Post #: 97
3/3/2018 17:32:21   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat


New players are also hurt by it-
If you can "just Life Carve" everything, fewer people are working on actual strategies to defeat the challenges. And new players who do not have access to V1 can't do anything but wish they had a time machine so they could pay to win.
And that is not something that I want to encourage.

quote:

I believe the best solution for V1 would be to allow it to be used in all challenges, but have some kind of passive nerf. Not to the level where it is completely useless, like it was for this challenge. Rather, something similar to the Doom Amulet where the monsters will be given significant buffs but not be unstoppable. If it was possible, it may be enough to reduce the effect that V1 Life Carve has on challenge monsters. Most other go-to skills V1 has would still face a significant challenge to the monsters if Life Carve was reduced in power. Perhaps they could cause it to have an increase cool down time?


Giving every challenge fight an alternate DoomKnight V1 version would require me to make an alternate version of every fight- and I do not have the time to do that. Doom Amulet was a special case- it was at the end of an epic chapter and also part of a rather lengthy quest. It would have been silly to go through the entire quest and then at the end, instadie because you used the wrong armor.
You can change classes and equipment and prepare entirely for the challenge fights. So it's not as punishing to restrict certain classes.

Having Life Carve be less effective in certain battles would be a huge undertaking, and there are other broken aspects of DmK V1- Life Carve spam is just the most obvious. We also promised not to adjust DmK V1 when we rolled out the new DoomKnight, and I do not want to go against that.

Drop rate changing is out of the question because it just turns it into an RNG grind, which is something I'd like to avoid doing for challenge fight rewards.

quote:

It doesn't really seem like there's any unique animation to the anti-doomknight measures; they're just using pre-existing moves with vastly increased damage. It doesn't seem like that much work, and it seems that it's even possible to reuse some of the coding for each different limitations, I don't think it takes that much work, no.


I do think that just adding ridiculous damage against a restricted class was a bad idea on these fights, where for flavor, they wouldn't be able to give the information that the issue was the restricted class. Hence why I've locked the buttons. Changing other aspects does take much more effort- especially when trying to counteract how OP DoomKnight V1 is.

The Arena at the End of Time content isn't intended to be completed by everyone- it's not meant to be like story quests or most side quests. It's an aspiration for those with the best gear and best strategies.



My final thoughts on the matter are thus:

Restricting DoomKnight V1 (or other classes) on certain challenge fights is not unfair.
It encourages strategy and community working together, which is absolutely fantastic.

I have never, and will never, have a boss or fight in the story where DoomKnight V1 just gets obliterated (Unless you were supposed to lose the fight as part of the story. Which we have been avoiding for some time now.).

If you disagree, I apologize, but I believe this is the best way to implement this content.
AQ MQ  Post #: 98
3/3/2018 17:45:07   
EdyMaster
Member

@Verlyrus
How about improving just a little more the accessories of the challenge? Just me are dissatisfied with them compared to DK items?
DF  Post #: 99
3/3/2018 17:49:35   
s_venom
Member

@Verlyrus: Thank you for your reply and clarifying the reasons.
AQ DF  Post #: 100
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