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RE: Design Notes April 6th, 2018

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4/7/2018 5:51:50   

Managed to defeat the duo as lvl 76 Ranger. Here's my equipment:

Ultimate Star of Glory - Because it gives All 10 and Health -15
Blade of Awe was shown.
Nick's Toasty Cape - Because it gives All 9
Zeclem's Band lvl 70 - Because it gives Good 13
Fierce Dragonlord's Helm - All 10 and Health -14
Zeclem's Band - Gives good stats.
Elemental Unity - The normal version.
Legion Bracer for extra stats.

With that equipment, I had All 33, and Health -33, so I got 1/3 more Health from Helios and Blade of Awe and Sporca and Mega Meowphant only did 2/3 damage.

And as a pet, I used My Dragon, Helios with 200 invested in protection and nothing else. I tried using Stan and Baby Chimera, but Helios was much better pet. I haven't maxed out my Mana potions, so Helios saved me many times, when he gave me mana.

Seaweed and Rotten Hardtack was also used. And only 2 potions.

And the guide I have for using Ranger is following

1. First, choose Sporca as an attack target.
2. Quick Reflexes.
3. Tracker's Shot - 0,25 Ranger Focus
4. Viper's Arrow on Sporca until you have 1.25 Ranger Focus
5. When you have an Extra attack, Use ArmorSlash. It usually hits, but if it doesn't, it's not a dealbreaker.
6. Again, use Viper's Arrow, SkyAssault, MultiShot or Power Shot. Make sure you have extra attack every turn. Purge can be used, but I personally didn't.
7. As soon as your shield's (Quick Reflexes) cooldown is 0, use it immediately. Because if you used my strategy, Mega Meowphant uses stun on his 4th or 5th time, so you evade it easily. Remember, when you have an extra attack from Ranger Focus, your cooldown's go down too.
8. After doing that for some amount of time, Sporca should be down pretty easily. Then you can focus on Mega Meowphant. He is much easier, as he doesn't evade nearly as much. But still, use the same strategy as that way, he doesn't go to his rage mode. At least for me he didn't at all. And now you can use your Purge as well. Use it only after ArmorSlash and when your Ranger Focus is 1.25 to give maximum damage.

< Message edited by Dratomos -- 4/7/2018 5:54:18 >
DF  Post #: 76
4/7/2018 6:37:25   

Soloed both with death knight, so another class confirmed to be the bane of this challenge (though I doubt that it would be feasible if one doesn't have an DA)

I went with a "dodgy" strategy and maxed my defenses, using gears like "the hidebehind", "baltael's aventail", "haversted mossy bindings" and "not-so-tiny bubbles" (along with some other equipments). I had 200 end, 170 str and 200 points of proctection for my baby dragon

Sporcaling was dealt with using Unholy Will, Dark Rite and the class's dot. The tricky part throughout the entire fight with the duo was managing the defensive skills. I had to time it right to active Garb of Undeath a few turns before the Mewphant used his stun, while making sure that Sporcaling constanly got debuffed with either bubbles or Soul Reap (this skill doesn't need to connect to active its effects, thank goodness).

After killing Sporcaling, things got easy, really easy, as Mewphant rarely managed to hit me with my already high defenses, which were bolstered even futher using the skills mentioned above. The poor thing was so furious that even when he managed to hit me once, my death knight's hot passive would mitigate the damage dealt, coupled with Dark Rite and the dragon's healing and you have a pretty clear picture of how desperate this battle was (for the big guy, of course). Overall, this was a pretty fun challenge, though I wished that I got more gears that provide better defensive stats.

You did it with evo pumkinlord? Now that is something I didn't see coming. Non DA users could still fare a chance against these challenges then. Also, what is a Hero's Diet?

Edit: Also, could someone tell me how strong the pet is with 200 cha? I have 0 cha and the little guy rarely uses his dot attack, so I would like to know if having more cha would increase the chance of it using its special attack

< Message edited by toannghe1997 -- 4/7/2018 6:40:15 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 77
4/7/2018 6:41:35   
Shadow X Ascendant

The Hero's Diet, is The two 2 temp itens that everyone is using in these challenges, Rotten Hardtack and Seaweed, When used Recovers all health and increase Bonus by 10 For 3 Rounds
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 78
4/7/2018 6:45:28   

Oh, those! I did know about them, I just didn't know that people call them that
AQ Epic  Post #: 79
4/7/2018 7:17:31   

Someone posted this before but Kathool Adept stomps the duo. Even after my dragon tried to stun the meowphant lol
DF AQW  Post #: 80
4/7/2018 7:42:58   

Y’know what, guys? Let’s take a moment to thank Verly for not making a nerve-racking, half-impossible, RNG-driven bossfight that Non-DAs have a fair amount of trouble completing, and DAs can do it well.
My new favourite Necromancer class can do it very easily due to Fear Ward being a thing. Also, Shroud of the Undead OP. (But balanced also.) DeathKnight is arguably better. KAA’s Migraine is amazing for this fight as it doesn’t need to hit to activate, and so is DragonSlayer’s Draconic Poison (AND DragonSlayer’s Blind skill doesn’t have to hit to activate either :) ). Mega Meowphant’s health can be whittled down with DoTs instead of regular damage (because regular damage buffs it)
The new pet is cute and amazing, and you don’t have to beat the duo for it XD (see Weird Duo for dumb egg)
The belt is kinda sorta somewhat underwhelming, but it’s still amazing for Non-DAs having trouble with Bearingion.
I loved these challenges :) They were really cool!

@toannghe1997, yeah, the name was coined by Lord Baron Dante himself :p

The problem with DeathKnight is that Garb of Undeath has a 9 turn cooldown while the Meowphant’s stun has a 7 turn one. However, that skill with the Scythe icon there on the right side can be beneficial too.

Edit @below!

I’ve noticed that a few of the recent challenges have been carved in for the Ranger Class to some extent. Uthy, Sporkrind and Mewphantom are where it excels.

Yes, I love using stupid names :p

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 4/7/2018 8:06:25 >
DF  Post #: 81
4/7/2018 8:20:18   

Managed the duo with DK, thanks to Baron Dante's advice. Lvl 85 with optimized equipment, hero-diet and zard-foods, and still a hard fight, but I was left with 1k hp, seaweed and 1 potion at the end, so DK seems like a very viable option.

< Message edited by mahasamatman -- 4/7/2018 8:21:02 >
DF  Post #: 82
4/7/2018 8:29:54   

yeah, you're right about that. Our devs defenitely deserve more love and recognition for all of their hard works! And it's nice to know that Baron Dante was the one who came up with the forever-feel-like-kinda-cheating diet for a 100% full heal
AQ Epic  Post #: 83
4/7/2018 8:52:07   

Yeah, with such a low staff count, we really don't give the devs enough credit. Thanks guys, for being so dedicated!

On a side note, to beat Sporca, DeathKnight will work. Necro-presence, Garb of Undeath, Generic attacking, Blood Tap, and Dark Rite did it for me.

< Message edited by PurgeXZ -- 4/7/2018 8:55:01 >
Post #: 84
4/7/2018 9:23:44   


Meh, it’s not really cheating as the devs know fully well about their existence as they do read these threads. Everyone uses them almost by default, and if there is a challenge where eating food is a bad thing (why did I give them the idea?) the devs could program something like for the duration of “Stuffed” (the effect you get upon eating food that disallows you from eating more) the monster damages you more or somthing, so It may not be considered cheating in that sense, especially for the Primordials.

@Shadow X Ascendant,

Rotten Hardtack actually decreases your accuracy (BtH) by 10.


Yeah, the staff is very dedicated, especially since Tomix and Verlyrus (at least I think) do most of the heavylifting, so I’d say they’re among the best and most dedicated game devs ever.

And yes, Dark Rite and Unholy Will are definitely huge factors in damaging the Sporca. Soul Reap and Garb of Undeath will keep you protected from its unique gimmick and Necrotic Presence Shift is just a useful move, period.

This was a very entertaining challenge indeed. Not many people seem to have disliked it XD
DF  Post #: 85
4/7/2018 9:37:12   
Shadow X Ascendant

because people are starting to sit on their chairs and starting working on learning the challenges highs and downs, so they are not complaining, for now
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 86
4/7/2018 9:37:17   


Y’know what, guys? Let’s take a moment to thank Verly for not making a nerve-racking, half-impossible, RNG-driven bossfight that Non-DAs have a fair amount of trouble completing, and DAs can do it well.


Is this a good thing though? This weeks challenges definitely are a lot easier than past weeks. Even the duo is very easy with right class. And these challenges are suppose to be very hard. Like was Meowphant easier than the likes of Razen?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 87
4/7/2018 10:20:18   


I guess you have a fair point there, but try it with only Non-DA equipment, too. The results may be different because the Ranger doesn’t get Quick Reflexes, Recover, Purge, Armorslash and Dual Wield. But granted, the Meowphant should definitely have been a tad trickier and more challenging to get through(even though it has the most HP of all Inn Bosses, at least 25% more would’ve been good. In any case, it was far easier than it’s regular counterpart in Verlyrus’ latest quest Into the box.) In any case, you still do need strategy to beat the bosses, even if it is to a minor extent—just look at some of the mainstream bosses. So far, the only hard ones have been the Doom Amulet, Razen Al Ghoul and... well, can’t think of any more. Point is, these still are more challenging than storyline bosses (which is the point). And who knows, maybe the rest of Dreamspace may not be as easy? This may have been just a warm-up.
DF  Post #: 88
4/7/2018 10:35:10   

I guess (I beat Razen and Doom Amulet with DmK V1 Life Carve so who am I to talk? even though Doom Amulet has boost against doomknight, it does not matter against V1)

My point was more fro the duo. The meowphant does more damage the lower its health, so if you focus on the Sporca as you are suppose to, the meowphant does like 100 damage which is nothing.

I think my problem is my main class is DmK so all the main story bosses are weak to me, like in tournament of champions, apparently you were suppose to use different strategies and classes to win, but DmK just wins.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 4/7/2018 10:37:54 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 89
4/7/2018 11:10:08   

Haven’t been able to beat duo, DK’s DOT’s seem to just take too long For me? What’s the KA strategy, I’ll try that next
Post #: 90
4/7/2018 11:20:05   
Shadow X Ascendant

why don't you try ranger it's even more easy, on Page 2 i wrote Ranger's Strategy
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 91
4/7/2018 12:46:22   



With that equipment, I had All 33, and Health -33, so I got 1/3 more Health from Helios and Blade of Awe and Sporca and Mega Meowphant only did 2/3 damage.

You didn't actually heal 1/3 more health. You just canceled out the fact that your All resistance made you heal 1/3 less.



I’ve noticed that a few of the recent challenges have been carved in for the Ranger Class to some extent. Uthy, Sporkrind and Mewphantom are where it excels.

Well, Ranger is supposedly Verly's favorite class, being among the first ones he specifically did revamps for, and he's the one who makes the challenges, so......

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 4/7/2018 12:51:06 >
DF  Post #: 92
4/7/2018 12:54:43   

If Ranger is nerfed to where it actually should be as a tier 2, we'll all be out of luck...
DF MQ  Post #: 93
4/7/2018 14:28:27   

Yeah, -33 Health makes you heal 33% more, but All Resistance cancels that out—that’s why the Hidebehind is so valuable—it makes you heal 20% more.

I’m getting serious CC Ranger Vibes. Also, I’m surprised as to the lack of boxes in the class—Quick Reflexes should just be turned into a camouflage box or something.

I don’t think Ranger’s Tier 3. As far as I know, the only NDA class like that is DeathKnight—and that’s because it’s harder to train. Ranger’s actually one of the most balanced classes in terms of offenses and defenses. Normally, many classes have a mini-nuke skill—see Paladin’s Crusading Strike, Necromancer’s Summon Familiar, DeathKnight’s Summon Minion, etc. at 170%, 160%, 180% damage respectively. Ranger’s Power Shot and Dual Wield both have 120% damage only—this is because of the extra turn mechanic. Using defenses puts your offensive prowess in jeopardy for some turns (4 for each move capping at 5 in 2 moves)
DF  Post #: 94
4/7/2018 14:47:30   

^ While Ranger isn't Tier 3, it has the same thing as DragonSlayer, where it's a lot stronger than a tier 2 class SHOULD be. For example, the Purge skill. If you use it at 5 focus, it treats it as you having 10 focus. And Ranger's Crit works differently from the other classes, as it's still a 2x multiplier at base. Which means that at max focus, Purge gets a 4.5X damage multiplier to it(2 hits of 70% damage, with a guaranteed chance of doing 4.5X what it would normally do, for a total of 630% damage with an effective cooldown of 5 turns if you don't use any defensive skills. And if you balance your STR and DEX, that's actually 2 hits of 85% damage getting that multiplier, which leads to a total of 765% damage). The only two non DC non special offer non-trinket skills I can think of off the top of my head that are stronger than that are Riftwalker's Power skill if it lands crits, and BaltaelSynch, both of which are skills on Tier 3 classes(because let's be real, Baltael's Aventail bumps SW up to Tier-3 in power). And considering that you can use another skill either before or after Purge on the same turn, If you were low on health, you could Purge for massive damage, then quickly use the hawk to deal a bit more damage while also recovering most of your health.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 4/7/2018 14:49:27 >
DF  Post #: 95
4/7/2018 14:54:02   
DragonFable Boxcat


A question for the devs: are these challenges designed with a specific class in mind? Cause this one seems tailor made for ranger


where it's a lot stronger than a tier 2 class SHOULD be

I don't design the challenges for specific classes, no.

However, I will admit that Ranger is my favorite class. I loved designing it, and I think the playstyle is very unique/fun and probably among the pinnacle of DF class design. I see a couple places for tweaking in the future perhaps, but it's in a pretty solid place right now.
AQ MQ  Post #: 96
4/7/2018 15:03:08   

Don't get me wrong Verly, I really like how Ranger works as it is now as well, and BluuHorsse is right about how well balanced it is. The issue really isn't how strong Ranger is, so much as it is how Tiers are decided, because realistically, Ranger and DragonSlayer should be Tier 3(or maybe 2.5).
DF  Post #: 97
4/7/2018 15:33:51   

You’re right about the calculations—Purge is very powerful, but that isn’t sustained damage, it’s burst, and burst damage classes are often the balanced classes of their tier, like the two you mentioned—Riftwalker’s Power and Baltael’s Aventail SoulWeaver’s BaltaelSynch. However, I’d also like to add Rage DragonLord to this list due to DragonSoul dealing 490% damage at the cost of 10% health. That means you can use it over and over again as it has no cooldown. It is also far less expensive than Blood Rite (in terms of real life money)

Additionaly, Cryptic could be considered the less cool, less fun, lss mechanical third-tier version of Ranger due to it having the same Crit mechanic and being more of a defensive class with very consistent and sustained offenses, making it high up on the tier 3 list.


Yeah, actually, I can tell that you don’t, despite me having said otherwise previously, because I remember when people used DragonSlayer for the original Dragon Challenges when I beleive that wasn’t how you intended them to be played.

Also, Ranger used to be my favourite, too, but now that I used Necro to check out the Left Section of the Dragon Challenges, I found that Necro was far easier and way more fun to use than IBR on Elemental Chaos, and from that point on, I’ve been trying Necro with everything (although there are definitely better classes, I won’t argue, Shadow Seed makes this extremely fun).

About the challenges, Ranger can beat them with ease, like, all of them. You just need a pet dragon, and that’s about it. Also, I’ve read on the Pedia that Meowphant only stuns you once if you have a guest with you, so I’m assuming Sir Leon can make these very easy for NDAs without a Protection Dragon. Alternatively, you could opt for maximizing your defenses with those items like the Hidebehind and all and use Aegis.

Sporcaling + Ninja = Chemistry
DF  Post #: 98
4/7/2018 19:03:36   
Lord Run

you know thous challenge used to be cool and all but i realy grew tired of them they just come and its start to feel just the same its just fight this super hard battle get powerful reword
and thats it no story no exploring nothing nada! just get on with the main story all ready if i want hardcore challenge i can play dark souls i want them to get on with the show and get to the good parts of the story! instade of just make us fight thous totally rendom boss that are just hard and tricky and thats it, they add nothing to the plot.now don't get me wrong i mean it was fun at first! but now i feel like they just taking the time that can be used to create the good stuff and its just super over used all ready,all so its not an inn at the end of time! by now it is more of an arena or a fight club then an inn. i don't know what with you guys but for me it lost its charm by now....

lately im haveing more fun playing the old Adventure Quest the grhapic improved a lot and even tho the storys are a bit silly i still prefer the silly story quest then story less quests
like thous arena ones DF became very slow lately or at list thats my opinion because that what basically maded me to like DF and return every week to see how the story continues and lately the story kinda sleeps i mean geting extra colors to armores updateing the inn looks rendom storyless boss arena and baakon armor parodys and drinking tea with Sepchulre and Gryvlin and a talking dark magical doll that makes every one feel bad about there life and makes them to remember the worst parts of there life [Antego saga] is all good but come on give us some thing worth watching i mean its all good but i realy think that all of us and i mean ll of us are dieing seeing what happnes with Robina and her rule as a queen or to keep seeing the 6 heroes saga and how Vempire boy and fire keeper gona react to the Hero and Falweyn or even better geting the hero back to the magesiryum story part of the story or the things that happnes with Jannia come on back to the good pats!.

< Message edited by Lord Run -- 4/7/2018 19:31:19 >
Post #: 99
4/7/2018 19:23:45   

Tough challenge, liked it and its mechanics, and i agree with most ppl that ranger shines here, most classes really depends on the rng god to fully be able to solo it (DK/Ranger aside).


However, I will admit that Ranger is my favorite class. I loved designing it, and I think the playstyle is very unique/fun and probably among the pinnacle of DF class design. I see a couple places for tweaking in the future perhaps, but it's in a pretty solid place right now.

Verly dont get me wrong i really like the mechanics that you gave ranger but again, that passive needs a small nerf/re-wiew, when you re-balanced ranger i said it back then:


in a game thats based on turns the ability of gaining extra turns needs to be balanced carefully, Verly did an amazing job whe he revamped ranger, its really unique and has its own mechanics, he even did manage to balance the way it can gain extra turns, but with the new buff (this one specifically : -2 focus for using right side skills, up from -5.) it just feels way too OP now.

for me ranger feels ahead of the rest of the classes, i get that you love it and i respect it, but in situations like these you can see that ranger is still ahead of most classes and its not that the class itself is unbalanced its the passive that in my opinion needs further review (i know that now its -4 focus), maybe increase the max focus needed?.

And appart i really suggest that DragonLord Darkness dragon spirit get changed back to MPM, it strugless too much for a T3 defensive class, in situations like this challenge it should be a realliable class, literally got Crited and dead most of the time, you dont even get the real chance of using Dragon soul because most of the time your are alredy dead, i really hope that Verly reconsider it.

PD: Sorry for any english mistakes, feel free to correct.
PD2: While we are at this Verly please Buff Soulweaver Concentration?.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 100
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