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11/6/2018 9:05:44   
ChaosRipjaw
How We Roll Winner
Jun15


Wait, what happened to Troll Spellsmith and Darkblood Stormking? I could've sworn that they were the best farming classes in-game before; now the opinion seems to be that they're sub-par.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 526
11/6/2018 9:47:45   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


Lack of proper AoE, at least today's AQW's definition of what "proper AoE" is.

In the case of Darkblood, you have 2 AoE skills on 12 seconds cooldowns, 1 nuke on same cooldown and a single target skill on a low cooldown. These AoE abilities and the single target, low cooldown skill does the same amount of damage which is a little less than 2k on crits. Now compare it to Shaman, who can pull off that + more with 4 second cooldown skills. Or Blaze Binder with it's consistent AoE damage on somewhat low cooldown and several DoTs, all 3 target AoE. Or Vampire Lord, with AoE auto attacks that can net you thousands of damage every couple seconds, at least with Aspect of the Bat active. Darkblood isn't even a farming class in that sense, it's a jack of all trades class that just happens to have some AoE.

Troll Spellsmith has 1 AoE ability on a 10 second cooldown and a single target one on a 5 second cooldown. Against smaller enemies, you will be waiting too long for your AoE to come back around, and in that time, any top tier AoE classes, like the ones mentioned previously could just keep chugging through rooms of enemies. Even against rooms with higher hp enemies, if you don't kill everything with that 1 AoE, you are stuck waiting to either pick them off 1 by 1, or wait for you to be able to use it again. Even the new Battlemage is quite a bit better than Troll for AoE farming IMO. It has 2 AoE skills, at lower cooldowns, both of them and the potential to deal much more damage to all 3 targets at once. Troll can hit more than 3 targets, sure, but that niche is rarely ever relevant. Troll Spellsmith is still a pretty good soloing class, it has an alright heal on a low cooldown (which can crit), some good damage reduction, stackable haste reduction and a possible stun. It CAN run into mana problems if you don't crit enough, but with the super high Crit Rate thanks to Sigil, that doesn't happen too often.

They have been outdated ever since BB and buffed Shaman set the new standard for AoE classes. They are "serviceable" but there's better classes available for whatever purpose these classes might serve nowadays.
AQW  Post #: 527
11/6/2018 12:11:50   
Tyroniter
Member

I can't remember if I've asked this before, but what's your guys take on DeathKnight Lord? I've seen a few comments here and there slagging it, but honestly I've had fun using it, and it doesn't seem all that bad either.
AQW  Post #: 528
11/6/2018 18:45:53   
you stop
Member

Is there any reason for SSG to get rate limited? I keep getting kicked whenever I use SSG for some reason. Only reason I could think of is me spamming abilities as my haste buff expires but I'm constantly pressing 2 anyway so I can't see how it should expire exactly

EDIT:
In any case here are my stuff for the class. Did the same 9 Room Metric (call it however unreliable it is, I'll use it for now). I will be posting the full comparisons including fxmybrute's results.

Limitations:
1. Lvl 85 Enh, BBoA with Spiral Carve (except on Shaman, it has no Awe Enh)
2. I segregated the BB/LC/MoM vs Shaman/VL/SSG due to the fact that the first block is not my test results (I simply cannot be bothered to do them all again, and I don't have MoM)
3. I didn't use 5 on SSG. More on this later.
4. I like hotdog. Do you like hotdog?


  • First 9 rooms of Towerofdoom (Low HP : 1K) (start in the first room with enemies)
    • BB : 0:40
    • LC : 0:46
    • MoM : 0:47

    • Shaman: 0:34
    • VL: 0:42
    • SSG: 0:48


  • First 9 rooms of Towerofdoom2 (Med HP : 4K - 5K)
    • BB : 1:08
    • LC : 1:10
    • MoM : 1:03

    • Shaman: 1:01
    • VL: 1:04
    • SSG: 1:27


  • First 9 rooms of Towerofdoom4 (High HP : 7K - 9K)
    • BB : 1:36
    • LC : 1:58
    • MoM : 1:43

    • Shaman: 1:26
    • VL: 1:31
    • SSG: 2:15



Notes on SSG (and possible recommendations):
  • I did not use 5 since on towerofdoom1, having full stacks of Consuming Shadows already 1 shots the entire room anyway with a full rotation
  • Using 5 on higher HP rooms seems like a very valid option but it actually made clearing the room take a longer time. The limitation here is the first monster will get killed, while you will take so much time to stack up again since there will only be 2 monsters left for you to stack on. If towerofdoom had 4 monsters, I'm sure pressing 5 would be a viable option.
  • For perspective, /towerofdoom2 took 1:27 without using 5, and took 1:53 if I tried to use 5. I used 5 when it was appropriate, not just when it was fully stacked. It gets worse the more HP the enemy has. It's better to keep Consuming Shadows at full stacks.
  • I could possibly be using this class wrong but, for now I'm convinced that it's not that good of a farming class. I thought it would've been a good substitute for Vamp Lord but seems like I was wrong. The amount of time to get Vamp Lord is so much shorter than the amount it takes for ShadowScythe General and SSG can't even compare to VL farming-wise. I heavily suggest they reduce the amount of Shadow Shields needed to obtain this class.
  • Finally, while I do understand that this class is balanced for PvP and not necessarily for farming, I still feel like ArchPaladin would be much better for the job. I don't like comparing classes for PvP but ArchPal instantly nerfs 3 people's damage down to 30% of its value. That and ArchPal's 2 will soon take over anybody given that it expires after 90s or so. With that said, the class feels very underwhelming even at the job it was specialized for. This, and ArchPal also happens to be much easier to obtain.



    Notes on previous classes:
    1. BB/LC/MoM
    2. Shaman
    3. Vampire Lord

    < Message edited by you stop -- 11/7/2018 5:10:18 >
  • AQW  Post #: 529
    11/7/2018 23:57:11   
    Edme MacHeath
    Member

    This honestly makes me feel like I did a pretty good job with my tier list.

    BB seems 2nd at lowest HP mobs, and then just worse than both shaman and VL at any other metric. So I guess i'm sticking with VL being better than shaman, less than 1k HP mobs aren't too common.
    MoM seems to do pretty well at 4-5k although with the class barely a second faster than VL and not seeming to do well over BB in other areas, overall I'd say it's lower than shaman, VL and BB and that again is what I had it at in my list.

    That shaman>VL>BB>MoM>LC>SSG (Although othr classes were present in the list, but I think the accuracy is fine.)

    As with farming no list can be completely accurate because of farming have a variety of situations, but I do feel like I did quite well.
    AQ  Post #: 530
    11/8/2018 0:44:45   
    you stop
    Member

    For the tier list I think we could cut a bit of slack and say VL could be in a very similar tier to Shaman. Again as you said, there is no one way to measure them but I guess there would be situations that VL would be better than Shaman. However I still cant bring myself to say that BB is better than Shaman unless you just cant be bothered to manage Shaman's mana.

    In that latter case though I think it's fair to say to just use VL. But hey, if you really wish to stick with BB who am I to stop you?

    < Message edited by you stop -- 11/8/2018 0:45:35 >
    AQW  Post #: 531
    11/8/2018 2:21:56   
    Edme MacHeath
    Member

    quote:

    (Top tier)
    1. Shaman (One could argue it being lower due to mana issues, although the results and cycles seem to work stupidly well enough to where i'm doubtful it's much lower.)
    2. VL
    3. AbA
    4. VHL
    5. BB
    5.5/4.5 - SSoT (I know but I honestly can't decide if it is a spot lower or higher than BB, seems IMO def better than MoM and LC but I do think it can be potentially way higher if somebody is good with using it)
    6. MoM (Some said it was better than VL and AbA, and by comparison it would be better than BB, but it doesn't look that way from the results.
    (Mid tier)
    7. LC
    8. Chaos Slayer or EI?
    9. Chaos Slayer or EI?
    (Moderate Tier)
    10-12 Battlemage? Scarlet Sorceress? SSG? Troll? DBSK?
    (Useless tier)
    Everything else ]


    I had put VL as the 2nd best class overall. It just seems better than BB in so many ways and in most realistic metrics. One can only use BB as you said if they have just no sense of management. Which I guess does apply to Shaman and BB more than comparing BB and VL, VL barely has more management to be done than BB.

    I still need to figure out Daimon and hopefully somebody is a master at using SSoT/SWoT. I feel like Daimon could very well be a top 3/4 class. It feels like a odd shaman with aspect of the bat and some weird different amount of target skills.

    My opinion is that CS is better than EI, atleast from my experience CS feels comparable in dps, maybe faster and way more stable because it actually has a decent way to heal. EI is missing it's long term potential to continue through too many rooms.

    From what I've heard, battlemage is a lot better now, and potentially is actually even closer to CS and EI.
    Scarlet Sorceress and Battlemage feel better than Troll and DBSK IMO. It's quite possible troll is actually on a similar level to scarlet dps wise, because scarlet does have some longish cooldowns(Although it has a haste buff) and lower crit chance, but it kinda has more skills to deal AoE damage at the same time, which is why I'm holding troll lower for now.

    SSG seems quite slower than any of the top tiers, Idk how it places overall though, it could very well be with EI and CS, and maybe battlemage too could be in there.
    Or it could just not be that fast and even closer to classes like scarlet or troll or dbsk.





    < Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 11/8/2018 2:24:41 >
    AQ  Post #: 532
    11/8/2018 19:31:09   
    Rastaban
    Member
     

    When I tested several farming classes against the Styx Hydras, I found RVL / VL to be the fastest of them with Daimon very close behind. I found Scarlet Sorceress to be faster than Shaman with either all luck or all wizard, and I found Shaman to be considerably faster than BB.

    Unfortunately, Daimon and Shaman seem to run out of mana. Had no such issues with those other classes.
    Post #: 533
    11/9/2018 3:13:15   
    you stop
    Member

    Shaman doesn't run out of mana if you manage it properly. In my past test, I highlighted what happens when you don't manage the mana. I'll just post it here I guess

    quote:

    First 9 rooms of Towerofdoom4 (High HP : 7K - 9K)
    Shaman: 1:45
    >Hands down to BB on this map

    Shaman: 1:26
    >Switched up my usage a bit. I didn't mindlessly press 2323232323
    >Abused Warrior regen by spacing spells and letting monsters attack me for a couple of seconds before moving on to the next room
    AQW  Post #: 534
    11/9/2018 14:25:57   
    Rastaban
    Member
     

    So by purposefully lowering your DPS you do not run out of mana?
    Post #: 535
    11/9/2018 16:15:06   
    Legendary Ash
    Member

    Arguably DPS increases if the player is in sync with mana regeneration even if it means allowing a 2 second interval between skills to let a monster attack you to regain mana, this is the case with monster attack dependent mana regeneration models unlike Mage's.

    The method of using skills as soon they have cooled down results in the inability to draw aggro with an AoE on a respawned monster, which regenerates mana for the next skill, forces the player to manually auto attack targets to restart the aggro and mana regeneration to provide for an AoE skill, this is more time consuming and affects DPS more than staying in sync with mana regeneration.
    AQ  Post #: 536
    11/9/2018 18:07:50   
    you stop
    Member

    That's where the major issue with BB and Shaman arises: Does the ability to "spam" spells instantly equate to higher DPS?

    Apart from the accuracy issues and the damage in question, most of the arguments I've seen towards those who prefer Blaze Binder is convenience provided by Mage Mana regen. But again, that doesn't answer the question if it actually does more damage (hence the origin of these tests). I concluded in one of my previous posts that if you wish to use Wizard Enhancements and you do not want to be bothered by the nature of Warrior Mana regen, then by all means use Blaze Binder. This, however, does not equate to Blaze Binder being a superior class in terms of DPS. It only equates to Blaze Binder feeling smoother to use since you can go brainless with it.

    Side Note now that I think about it: I'm also curious if anyone wants to maximize SSoT and Daimon and possibly record them. I only know how to use SSoT in the soloing aspect and while I do know how to use Daimon in farming, I use it in a way where I never press 4 just so I could manage mana more efficiently. Pressing 4 only hits two targets and while that contributes in clear speed, I have also noticed that even if I space spells, I would still run out of mana. That, or I'm just bad at using the said class.
    AQW  Post #: 537
    11/9/2018 20:13:42   
    Edme MacHeath
    Member

    I don't care about mana regeneration too much. I still stand by my beliefs that if you can manage mana enough and still get better results across the board, what's the difference?
    Does having to not be brainless really make that much of a difference? Why should a class need to be so brainless for it to have valid results or DPS?


    AQ  Post #: 538
    11/10/2018 1:38:28   
    you stop
    Member

    Simple really, everyone's been washed with the belief that if a class's mana drops below 100, then it's "bad". I'll just leave it up to AE's dev team to solve that problem. Really, AQW is the only game I know where you cast a spell and regain more mana than you lose (except for spells intended to let you regain mana in the first place).
    AQW  Post #: 539
    11/10/2018 2:11:45   
    fxmybrute13
    Member

    IMO, it's to do with how this game is being played.

    Personally, whenever I farm, it's not just that I turn my brain off. To be more accurate, I turn my attention to something else, like my impending homework. I only have the capacity to notice larger events in game, such as a drop appearing, a color change in chat. I don't have the ability to be monitoring my mana bar. And I know I'm not the only one. Maybe it's less common than I presume, but it's definitely prevalent enough that it can't be written off so easily.

    Perhaps, maybe I'm confusing the ideas of a tier list with a recommended list.

    To draw an analogy, let us think of Smash Brothers. On one hand, you could be really into the game and spend a lot of time mastering Fox, earning a 90% in some scale. On the other hand, you could be a casual scrub and pick up Mewtwo, and without much effort at all, earn a 85% in the same metric. In the tier list, Fox > Mewtwo, but I would still put Mewtwo > Fox in the recommended list. Fox for the competitive player at tournaments. Mewtwo for the college drunk who missed one too many lectures.

    There's obviously some tradeoff between the two, but to me, its an acceptable trade off. That's why, I don't consider classes like TSS, EI, RBM, which don't have mana problems, but do have a significant DPS discrepancy between Shaman, at the same level as Shaman. In any case, I guess it does depend on the type of enemy you're fighting, and the type of player the enemy is fighting.

    < Message edited by fxmybrute13 -- 11/10/2018 2:24:19 >
    DF AQW  Post #: 540
    11/10/2018 23:25:15   
    Edme MacHeath
    Member

    That analogy would be nice but if you're not paying attention to a fighting game you're automatically losing. Furthermore I would heavily recommend fox over mewtwo for button mashers and beginners because his options are more solid and faster
    He's a better character to spam or randomly press buttons with if you ask me. but that's not really related to AQW.

    I don't pay attention to the game and I still prefer shaman, I don't understand the whole blazebinder is easier to use, it's not for me at all, blazebinder feels more stressful simply because of how much slower it is.
    It's the same stress I feel when soloing with a slower class than a faster class.

    At the very same this also makes shaman easier for me, because 1+2= clears a room, many seconds faster than bb, and that's much easier and less attentive than blazebinder pressing all 4 buttons and waiting seconds for the DoTs to finish off enemies.


    How exactly are you able to manage TSS's sigil stacks by not paying attention and yet you can't manage shaman's mana?
    Not paying attention to shaman actually means you'll more than likely not spam, which helps even out it's mana use.
    You do the same for TSS and you lose all your stacks. You can't even really decide not to stack as troll's stacks help it's mana regen, dps and survival altogether.
    I have a very very hard time believing you can manage Troll's sigils more than you can manage shaman's mana.


    I also think RBM is harder to use in other ways that more than make up for the superior mana to shaman, but that's my opinion.

    EI is a harder farm to recommend than both Shaman and BB IMO, just look at the faction... It's a comparable farm to BB and it's just worse.
    The class isn't bad it's just mediocre locked behind a hard faction. Which is worse than Shaman being absolutely amazing locked behind a hard faction. Even closer I'd recommend BB over EI.
    I would probably even recommend CS over EI, as atleast CS has both a heal and once you get your way to drakath you barely need to grind any to reach rank 10.




    < Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 11/10/2018 23:31:59 >
    AQ  Post #: 541
    11/11/2018 0:20:24   
    fxmybrute13
    Member

    To each their own, but when I say not I'm not paying attention, I have the game at 50% size, spamming "2345" or some other preset permutation according to the class, while the majority of my screen is dominated by some sort of pdf or youtube video.

    TBH, I never even bothered to try TSS. So maybe putting it out there wasn't the smartest idea. But it's really far behind Shaman in terms of DPS whereas BB is not. I suppose that's the point I've been making. Now that you've shown that Shaman does have a workable rotation and established as top tier, I'm trying to find the best class that fits my playing style that achieves the closest approximation to Shaman. For this purpose, BB and VL are the best options. If Shaman's DPS didn't absolutely tank if you can't manage it properly (aka me), then it would be a class that I would use more. If you can manage it properly, then all the more power to you. But I'm imagining a lot more players that can't, whether that be due to the choice of laziness or lack of understanding of how to use the class. So that's why those two classes still remain so high on my recommendability list. The numbers show a 1-2 second time loss per room, a discrepancy that's not large enough for me to consider placing them on completely separate tiers. Whereas classes like RBM and EI do have a noticable gap.

    It's been a long time since I farmed Arcangrove. I don't remember grinding for it specifically other than the dailies. I'm pretty sure it was one of those factions I did Swag A for. Just lined them all up, popped a quick boost, and down the hatch it went. IIRC, I ranked something like 5-7 reps like that in one sitting. But from common concensus, it is one of the more annoying factions to farm for. But I kinda left class obtainability out of the conversation because while CS is a lot more easier to obtain than shaman, a couple extra hours of farming is irrelevant to how frequently you'll use the class. Of course, there are exceptions like VHL (time commitment), and LC (now a lvl requirement).

    < Message edited by fxmybrute13 -- 11/11/2018 1:35:09 >
    DF AQW  Post #: 542
    11/11/2018 0:39:24   
    you stop
    Member

    @above If it would ease your mind to use Shaman (mindlessly as you would put it), I recommend trying to space 2 and 3 as if a metronome. One cycle of tick tock would be you switching from 2 to 3. After a while it'll just be muscle memory and you wouldnt even notice it. No need to worry about both HP and Mana since with that thing that I do, I get enough auto+agro to regen mana while still remaining healthy (then again you never had to worry about Shaman's HP anyway). I'm at a point where I can look away from the screen in the same manner that you do it but still be able to use Shaman.

    Another method I use is to just 232323 nonstop until I only have enough mana for a single cast of spell. I would then cast 3 then wait it out a bit (HoT should be enough to keep you healthy). After regenerating mana, I would just have a go at 232323 again. This is more of an effort than what I previously suggested but it's an easier transition, only you can't go looking away from your screen with this method.

    But again, I will stick to my earlier conclusion. If to you, convenience means that you just press skills even while theyre on cooldown, then go for that. It makes sure you get the skill as soon as they come up (something you can't necessarily afford on Shaman). If that's how you define convenience then go for it. I think it's obvious at this point that Edme defines convenience as clearing the room as fast as possible. Blaze Binder doesn't give you that (at least not when compared to Shaman). But if convenience is defined as really just not having to worry about anything and everything then go for what you feel like using.

    < Message edited by you stop -- 11/11/2018 0:42:17 >
    AQW  Post #: 543
    11/11/2018 1:09:23   
    fxmybrute13
    Member

    I always had that problem growing up. I kept on speeding up when playing the piano. There was this one piece in particular, Bach Gigue in G, that I could never keep on pace with.

    So maybe it's a personal problem of mine that I'm generalizing to a larger population? Or maybe not? I do have some experience that says otherwise. I wouldn't call it evidence, simply an test of mine that I've been carrying out for a while. I've baited a lot of people into getting shaman, with a secret agenda for them to get stonecrusher, since they'll already be roughly 50% done with the grind, and 3 reps is kind of daunting for non-endgamers. I do this by telling them Shaman has the best damage output among AoE classes (I know I come of as a massive critic and skeptic of Shaman, but I actually believe this, and have for a while).

    But time after time again, all of them come back and say they can't use Shaman, it has mana problems. And time after time again, I always say the same thing. Space out your attacks and skills. And also don't use 4 and 5. They try, and basically everybody I've done this with, has transitioned off of Shaman to something easier to use. Be it CS, VL, BB. I think there's only one person that hasn't done so.

    Maybe it's a problem with my sample? The sample size is at least 15 people. So it's not tiny, but its not massive either. And these aren't all just lvl 30-50's going through the game, there are some lvl 85 friends that I manipulated into getting Shaman to see how they like it. So perhaps, due to factors such as the stupid hours I play it, my sample is not an accurate representation of the population? Maybe my friends are idiots? Ok, that's not a maybe, that's a given. Regardless, this is the reason why I'm put such a heavy emphasis on the "if" component of Shaman being top-tier.

    I've tried to make Shaman work. I've even forced others to try to make Shaman work. But the rate of success has just been too low from my experience for me to put Shaman alone in the top tier category.

    < Message edited by fxmybrute13 -- 11/11/2018 1:37:05 >
    DF AQW  Post #: 544
    11/11/2018 1:19:42   
    Foulman
    Member

    Grinding in AQW is simply too boring to pay any attention to it. Brain dead classes are the best farming classes.
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 545
    11/11/2018 7:55:35   
    Metakirby
    Constructive & Helpful!


    With this talk about Shaman's "mana problems", I am honesty surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that you can use 2 buffed Hydrophobias per 1 use of Ancestors Flame. This is statistically the best way to conserve mana and deal as much damage as possible per mana spent since 1 buffed Hydro is 2 Flames worth of damage for only 1.5 times the mana cost. Although when it comes to lower hp enemies, you usually kill with just 2 + 3, so it's not always that relevant, especially at max level using damage boosts, plus there's a lot a lot of times when 1 Flame worth of damage is better to take down the last couple hundred HPs instead of waiting for Hydrophobia to get off cooldown again, in which case not using Hydrophobia twice is actually more efficient. I just shot myself in the foot with that last statement, didn't I?

    The only time it's super relevant is if you are both in mana and hp troubles against a boss and needs to heal as much as possible while saving as much mana as possible, since using Hydrophobia in bossing is generally a bad way to spend mana, but if you are already in that situation, chances are you either did something wrong or tried to take on something you shouldn't and in both cases, might not even be able to save it anyways.

    It's maybe not something you think about if you are just using it on the side of something else, hence why a lot of people just spam 2323, because it's the simplest way to go about it.

    quote:

    Brain dead classes are the best farming classes.

    "It's not about the destination, it's about the journey"
    While probably not true for a lot of people, seeing how many people want to avoid doing actual farming to get results, it still holds some significance. Let's say you are going to start farming for an endgame item, BLoD, for example. If all you think about is "how do I get to the goal the fastest" instead of "how do I make the grind for Dust and Essences more interesting", then you are definitely going to run into the problem of AQW getting stale quickly. This is why I recommend having multiple classes for the same purpose in your inventory at the same time, because then you can switch out classes when one gets a little too boring to constantly use without the efficiency. It's not going to be 1 to 1 comparison between classes all the time, using LC to kill a high hp boss will always be faster than using LDK and using a class like RBM in Boxes instead of BB, Shaman or Vamp Lord will increase the time spent doing the same task, over a longer period of time. I do have my favorite class for AoE mass murdering, but I do always try to mix it up once I feel like the class either isn't cutting it anymore, maybe want to use a less attention needing class or maybe a more efficient class to finish off the farming session quickly. Unless I specifically time how long it takes for me to obtain X resources with X class, I can hardly tell the efficiency difference between different AoE classes while farming, in a lot of cases.

    Is AQW necessarily interesting and engaging through every grind? No, not by a long shot, at some point, even the most dedicated players will give up and just start doing lazy farming while doing something else on the side, no grind can truly hold anyone's attention for a sustained amount of time, especially if that grind involves killing the same 1 or 2 enemies for tens, maybe hundreds of hours, which is usually the case for these endgame/hardcore grinds.
    AQW  Post #: 546
    11/11/2018 18:11:14   
    Edme MacHeath
    Member

    Thing is, everyone is talking about how BB is braindead more than Shaman, but i've always found shaman easier when you're not payin attention.

    You only press 2 buttons instead of 4. And that's always been easier for me than pressing more buttons. And I end up missing the exact moments skills cooldown, which evens out my mana use.

    I don't think many people find farming an incredibly tedious item, enjoyable or not boring on any level. If they do, that's not so much of a class related thing, so much as it would be related to that person's mindset. Which is a positive for the user, but not a positive for the class.
    I would argue that using a much slower class is actually contradictory to making the long tedious farm, less tedious or more enjoyable, since it adds an extreme amount of time spent farming, at the cost of slightly more brainded class use, I think it at the very least makes up for the braindead farming if not making it even worse for the user.

    Sure you can decide not to pay attention, but that still adds even more tediousness.

    I think this isn't so much of an effort thing, so much as it's a personal mindset thing. I personally don't find BB easier than Shaman, and it's absolutely slower than Shaman.
    I also never find any class less or more fun or boring than another, I personally don't really drawl enjoyment from small things like that, but everyone has the things they find fun and that's okay because everyone is different.

    AQ  Post #: 547
    11/11/2018 20:09:35   
    fxmybrute13
    Member

    If we're switching the topic to how to use Shaman effectively, then we have to address the usage of Elemental Embrace. It might be a hassle to keep a running stopwatch, but I set my computer display to show seconds, so it's not that bad if I'm paying attention.

    It has a cost of 60 mana, so in terms of mana usage, it's equivalent to 6 casts of 2. Assuming you alternate using 2 and 3, using Elemental Embrace becomes more advantageous after only 8 cycles. And thats just mana cost - damage efficiency, not even accounting for the time it would take to cast 2, 6 times in replacement of casting Elemental Embrace. And the cycle count would go down if you cast 3 less and 2 more, since 3 is healing more and 2 is doing more damage.


    Forgot Elemental Embrace was applied to target and not self. But that kinda makes me wonder, would making Elemental Embrace apply to self (and thus carry over between fights) be a more popular change, or would making Shaman's mana regen model into the standard mage model, be the more popular change.

    Obviously those who can manage Shaman's mana properly would say the former, but that seems like the minority here.

    @Metakirby. Actually that's a really good tip that I haven't thought of yet.

    < Message edited by fxmybrute13 -- 11/11/2018 21:38:06 >
    DF AQW  Post #: 548
    11/11/2018 21:06:16   
    Metakirby
    Constructive & Helpful!


    quote:

    Forgot Elemental Embrace was applied to target and not self. But that kinda makes me wonder, would making Elemental Embrace apply to self (and thus carry over between fights) be a more popular change, or would making Shaman's mana regen model into the standard mage model, be the more popular change.

    Obviously those who can manage Shaman's mana properly would say the former, but that's seem like the minority here.

    The former change would literally obsolete every other class, at least for boss purposes, because you could just infinitely increase your damage through fights, for example do a group kill on Desolich, and then at some point just 1 shot whatever you wanted to, rest in between to get your mana back and loop the process. It should at least have a cap if this change was to happen to avoid these situations, but then you would need to weight whether the set up time is worth it for what it's maximum potential might be.

    I really don't like the idea of changing the Mana Regen, it would ruin the flow of the class. It would not only take it from "possibly the best AoE class" to "definitely the best AoE class, without a doubt", but it would also turn it into yet another boring button masher class, mostly. In it's current state, it's a good overall class and honestly not even that hard to manage it's mana, neither for bosses or for farming and I love the actual planning of your mana when using it on bosses. I also never use it without having an analog clock by my side, so I rarely, if ever lose Embrace. Yes, I am part of the minority in this situation.

    Evo Shaman on the other hand, feel free to go wild with that one, make it usable again. Make it into something more distinct from Shaman, make it a class you would want to use on bosses, since that is already sort of what it's made for, but was left in the Dust when shaman got heavily buffed.

    On an unrelated note, Horc Evader is a pretty good soloing class. While I do generally say that Shaman is probably the hardest class to play properly and most efficiently (when using it on a boss, especially solo), Horc Evader is really trying it's hardest to convince me otherwise. Luckily Mana Vamp exists and makes it more manageable.

    < Message edited by Metakirby -- 11/11/2018 21:16:14 >
    AQW  Post #: 549
    11/11/2018 21:49:24   
    fxmybrute13
    Member

    Well, if they changed the damage multiplier to additive instead of multiplicative, then it would a very very long time to get that level of broken. But ok yah, it was a random thought that had no actual thought behind it.
    DF AQW  Post #: 550
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