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6/26/2018 4:21:20   
Edme MacHeath
Member

quote:

At the very least I think Inversionist is better than Chaos Slayer. Although, I think Inversionist needs a damage booster like Necrotic Sword of Doom to really shine.


Disagree. Chaos Slayer seems faster in my use and the heal and survival is quite better. It also can sort of content with the amount of targets Eternal Inversionist can hit because 2 of CS's skills target 6 enemies and it's auto attack targets 3.

quote:

Sure, Stonecrusher is the support you want all the time, but there's plenty of other really good supports

2. Arachnomancer. Doubling everyones damage is really good. Can spam it if you have a Stonecrusher haste buff. Although, you are relying on that haste buff each time the boss respawns, so you lose some value if you're Stonecrusher is lazy.

3-5. Lightcaster. Great for lvl 90 bosses since you have a decent chance to miss and non-crit against them, even with a Stonecrusher. Also great with the calender classes since some of their skills can miss

3-5. Archfiend. Good, but I find that their 5 cooldown is too long, so you can't spam it on bosses that die too fast. Still good to combo with Stonecrusher so your party has pretty much 100% crit rate.

3-5. Glacial berserker is good too. A bit of both offensive and defensive support. The 60% more damage debuff only lasts 6 seconds with a 22 sec cooldown (11 when haste buffed), but if the boss dies in 6-8 seconds, then that's fine. The respawn time should be long enough for it to be available each fight.

Those are what I would consider the best offensive supports. They all pass the "VHL Test" Meaning that in a 5 person team with a Stonecrusher, the 6th person would contribute more than a Void Highlord by playing one of these support classes.

Shaman also negates the targets evasion, so it's a niche support for some calender classes.

Defensive supports would be like Archpally, Harbinger, then Void Highlord (Shackle spam). Archpally or Harbinger for hard hitters, Void for medium hitters like Iadoa.


Ideally I think only Aracnomancer+StoneCrusher is necessary, maybe throw in a archfiend, but I'd fill some spots with some Calanedar Classes as those would be far more viable than adding in archfiend or glacial Bezerker.

ArchPaladin and Harbringer are indeed defensive support, but I didn't want to list them as I wasn't sure the question was about defensive support.

I try not to list niche support. We can always find a bunch of classes that will help in niche situations, but that doesn't really make them support classes.
Void Highlord isn't a support class at all. 30% less haste, hit and dodge is nice but it's still nothing on the defensive nerfs of classes like ArchPaladin and Harbringer, or even Chaos Slayer.

If we're listing shaman then I think Evolved Shaman is potentially better for nerfing the opponent due to being able to pull off quite a bit of stuns if the opponent isn't immune to them, also regardless evolved shaman can heal the party for abit of damage(Small) and hugely reduce enemie's hit chance.

I think Chaos Slayer is a much better choice for nerfing than Void Highlord, it can still gain haste from a stonecrusher, and it's nerfs, AND buffs widely outclass void highlord's


< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 6/26/2018 4:44:00 >
AQ  Post #: 76
6/26/2018 9:38:24   
Loftyz
Member

quote:

Ideally I think only Aracnomancer+StoneCrusher is necessary, maybe throw in a archfiend, but I'd fill some spots with some Calanedar Classes as those would be far more viable than adding in archfiend or glacial Bezerker.


Alot of it depends on what classes you have available and whether you want to make a Calendar comp, or a DPS comp. In general though, I think the more supports, the better.

If you have a Calendar class in party (CDK, IC/EC, SSoT kind of), then its a no brainer. Have everyone switch off DPS and play supports instead since the Calendar will just one-hit the boss. Although if you're Calendar dude doesn't have enough damage to one-hit, I guess you could have 1 DPS or a 2nd Calendar in party just to help him out.

Against low hp bosses where its slower to use Calendar classes, I think you should play 2-4 DPS, 2-4 Support. Can't really pinpoint an exact ratio since there's so many variables, but I'd lean towards 4 supports. When you go support heavy, you can get everyone up to like 400% damage and 100% crit rate. Although it's very rare to find a variety of support classes in one party, so you usually end up DPS heavy.

quote:

I try not to list niche support. We can always find a bunch of classes that will help in niche situations, but that doesn't really make them support classes.
Void Highlord isn't a support class at all. 30% less haste, hit and dodge is nice but it's still nothing on the defensive nerfs of classes like ArchPaladin and Harbringer, or even Chaos Slayer.


Of the support classes I listed, I wouldn't consider any of them except Lightcaster to be niche. Unless having 5 people and a Stonecrusher is considered niche :s

I'd consider niche supports to be like shaman/evo shaman for nerfing specific stats, acolyte/bard for preserving mana, classes that need to build up stacks on their debuffs, classes with debuffs that make the enemy take 20-30% more damage, defensive supports in general, and classes that heal, stun, or draw aggro to themselves.

For some reason I thought VHL Shackle lowers the enemy damage output by 50%, but it doesn't. I'd put Chaos Slayer as the 7th best offensive support. Feels like they always give the Anguished debuff. 8th Would be Doomknight I guess? Has the same debuff but needs to stack it 5 times.

< Message edited by Loftyz -- 6/26/2018 9:40:24 >
DF AQW  Post #: 77
6/26/2018 9:52:56   
XeNON_54
Member

quote:

Disagree. Chaos Slayer seems faster in my use and the heal and survival is quite better. It also can sort of content with the amount of targets Eternal Inversionist can hit because 2 of CS's skills target 6 enemies and it's auto attack targets 3.

Eternal Inversionist is pretty useful for pulling in faraway enemies with its range auto though.
Especially in large maps or maps with monsters that spawn on the other side of the screen.
Post #: 78
6/26/2018 10:48:07   
Edme MacHeath
Member

quote:

Eternal Inversionist is pretty useful for pulling in faraway enemies with its range auto though.
Especially in large maps or maps with monsters that spawn on the other side of the screen.


Which is why I'd say EI is probably #6. Overall it really doesn't pull ahead of Chaos Slayer in anything but range and raw amount of enemies targeted. Which as I said CS can somewhat contend with.
It's too niche to say it's really better than Chaos Slayer. But I can easily say it's #6.
AQ  Post #: 79
6/26/2018 11:08:23   
Edme MacHeath
Member

quote:


Of the support classes I listed, I wouldn't consider any of them except Lightcaster to be niche. Unless having 5 people and a Stonecrusher is considered niche :s

I'd consider niche supports to be like shaman/evo shaman for nerfing specific stats, acolyte/bard for preserving mana, classes that need to build up stacks on their debuffs, classes with debuffs that make the enemy take 20-30% more damage, defensive supports in general, and classes that heal, stun, or draw aggro to themselves.

For some reason I thought VHL Shackle lowers the enemy damage output by 50%, but it doesn't. I'd put Chaos Slayer as the 7th best offensive support. Feels like they always give the Anguished debuff. 8th Would be Doomknight I guess? Has the same debuff but needs to stack it 5 times.


Thing is... I'm not sure Bard and Acolyte's mana helpfulness isn't actually useful in the grand scheme of things, even with classes that struggle with mana, you'll find that using aracnomancer, archfiend and stonecrusher are all far more useful for even mana hungry classes such as cryomancer, ShadowStalker of Time, etc... The actual results show that the added damage and crit chance of offensive classes help cryomancer and other mana hungry classes more than healer and bard do.

I don't think I'd ever see a situation where i'd use bard and healer over another offensive support. Having more mana is nice on the surface but when you actually time your results, adding 100% more damage far outweighs the amount of mana gained from those classes, I'd rather finish a boss faster and have some mana problems, if you finish a boss with bad mana faster than you finish a boss with good mana, is it really worth it? I don't really think so.
Bard does have very small nerfs and a small heal but i'd honestly use LightCaster as it heals far better, increases hit chance, resistance, crit damage, etc, and then straight up increases damage. The same with healer's heal.

Also I don't think Shaman and Evo Shaman are really even that useful in those niche situations, there's really no bosses I can think of that have absurd dodge. And to be quite honest a straight up damage boost is better than negating dodge, I'd rather have my hits dodged once in a while and hit far harder than to have my hits undodgable but still missable and hit far less.
Again in actual timed results, another Aracnomancer or Archfiend over the Shamans is better.


As for LightCaster being niche, I don't think it is, it's offensive buffs and DPS and heal make it nearly as good as StoneCrusher in raw support, keep in mind LightCaster increases 3% per stack, and 15% crit damage, regular damage, haste, crit chance, dodge chance and resistance and heals instantly all from it's heal.
This actually really makes it an insane support class. It doesn't take but 10-15 stacks for it to reach Aracnomancer level support, due to aracnomancer only being able to keep it's 100% damage for half the time (Which as you said can be looped with a stonecrusher)
I'm actually abit debitive whether LightCaster or Archfiend is better offensively. I'm sure Archfiend comes on top in the beginning but I believe LC can probably surpass it after not too long.

LightCaster might even have the best heal. It's a full heal which is as much as anyone can take advantage of because over 4-5k heals means you excess healed and nobody really benefitted from that. And then add of the buffs and defense buffs from LCs heal.
It is a 6 ally heal too which means the full group can benefit from it. Although there are potentially very few maps where more than 6 people can be at. Healer is only a 4 target heal and heals you the most and the rest less but does apply a HoT...but only on the first target making that pretty useless as a support heal....
Oracle has some randomized status effects hat don't always benefit you...infact it can increase your party's mana costs and endurance, decrease your party's luck which are both pretty bad...And it's also only a 4 target heal so it's that great either...
ArchPaladin might have the benefit of extra endurance and about 5% more resistance added...but overall the defensive and offensive buffs make LC's better... Paladin Highlord has the full heal 10 player heal however...

HOWEVER AP would still be better defensive because of it's 90% nerf.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 6/26/2018 11:36:40 >
AQ  Post #: 80
6/26/2018 15:46:37   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


Seems like AE nerfed Soul Snare, it's now only 40% hit decrease instead of 90%, although adding a 40% haste reduction for compensation. This does make Harbinger less good as a support class + less good as a class in general, now it's way more of a risk to go down to low hp, but it's not like Harbringer was the best soloing class from a damage, nor sustainability standpoint anyways. The haste reduction is probably significant enough to where, if looped, it still grants a lot of defensive supporting, enough to get through a fight that doesn't 1 shot through a Stonerusher shield.

On a side note, do you think there's a cap to how much you can decrease a enemy's haste? How slow can you make an enemy attack with the right classes? Or maybe it just caps out at twice as slow, like the way it caps out at twice as fast for players.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 6/26/2018 15:47:29 >
AQW  Post #: 81
6/26/2018 16:15:26   
Edme MacHeath
Member

In what way was the nerf required? I think that the 90% blind was perhaps the thing that made the class stand out the most. It sure had some high damage crits but overall it's DPS wasn't groundbreaking. I personally only ever used it for it's 90% blind. It definitely was capable as a class but really this is potentially a huge change.

I guess just less survival overall and it can no longer be on the level of archpaladin defensive support. Probably still a support class but it'll go down the list alittle.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 6/26/2018 16:18:25 >
AQ  Post #: 82
6/26/2018 20:18:37   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


I can imagine that AE figured out how stupidly good Soul Snare was with a Stonecrusher. With the 90% debuff + standard dodge chance + standard enemy miss chance, as long as the enemy did not have any special abilites, you were guaranteed that they would never be able to hit you, as long as you can manage to loop Soul Snare, which is possible, consistently, although with a very tight time frame. It was better than Archpaladin IMO, not only because it would essentially reduce damage to 0, but it also dish out significantly more damage than Archpaladin, which in a lot of cases, that extra burst damage was very nice. Archpaladin was always a little more flexible on the cooldown though, so it had that going for it + a little bit of extra damage from Divine.

Was it a needed change? yes, I would say so, although I would rather have seen either and increase in cooldown, or a decrease in effect duration, which if it was 7-8 seconds instead of 10, you would still keep the ability to safely go down to low HP, deal damage and heal back up in solo situations and add enough downtime for an enemy to hit once with Stonecrusher, assuming no other stuns or haste decreases, which Stonecrusher has both, but both are luck dependant and would need to be timed extremely well. Either option would still keep the playstyle of "get low > Snare > do damage > heal up" which simply having those couple seconds of safety really made that playstyle viable. Now it suffers from the same problem as LBMA, which is, it's easy to get low, but you will always be in danger of getting killed if you try to do big hits.

I figured out the change the hard way, after mysteriously being hit for 20k damage by the Archfiend Dragonlord, with Soul Snare active, even though I have never seen a single mob hit while having Soul Snare applied before that instance.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 6/26/2018 20:27:11 >
AQW  Post #: 83
6/26/2018 22:14:55   
you stop
Member

from 10 seconds of immortality to uhh... 10 seconds of coinflipping. great change. though i do agree it was getting out of hand with those infamous "KILLING 800M HP AKRILOTH" videos going around.

anyway does anyone know what Insolent Fools does exactly?
AQW  Post #: 84
6/27/2018 3:47:30   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


According to SyncAE's guide/preview of the class, it's stated that insolent fools is a 20% Endurance buff, which can happen upon use of any of the skills. He starts explaining Insolent Fools around the 6:43 mark. I don't know if a proc rate for it was ever announced though.
AQW  Post #: 85
6/27/2018 23:07:32   
you stop
Member

in terms of what's best, really depends on the situation.

DPS: EC wins here easily. There's a huge dps gap between the two classes so if you want the best damage, there's no questions here just take EC.
Survivability: Lightcaster has a great edge since you practically spam the heals. EC's heal is also great although needs stacks for it to work.
Support/Team Synergy: Lightcaster provides many things for a group, not just its heal. 15% boost to just about every stat is great.
Return of Investment: Well ye, LC is just 1k ACs and provides great DPS and Party contributions. IC/EC is 6k and only gives damage, well that and it'll go rare for the foreseeable future.
AQW  Post #: 86
6/29/2018 2:41:27   
dante1212
Member
 

The first skill on abyssal angel increases HoT and DoT if u use skill 3 while 1 is active. Just seems people miss that often


< Message edited by dante1212 -- 6/29/2018 2:43:17 >
Post #: 87
6/29/2018 12:55:00   
  Shadowhunt
Snow Angel, Bug Hunter, Class Tester


I think it's less an issue of people missing it and more than people intentionally don't use it. You get a higher DoT and HoT, yes, but you also give up a lot in the way of the haste boost and AoE capabilities of the class. There's little to no benefit of using it (Vantage Point or whatever it's called?) for farming situations, which is basically the only time you'd be using AbAgail in the first place.
AQ AQW  Post #: 88
6/29/2018 14:49:19   
Aura Knight
Member

I don't think I've used the second skill of abyssal angel in a very long time. Since the class is better for farming anyway, there's no need to. And I don't use it for soloing, but if I did, that's the only time I'd use skill 2. And yeah the benefits of the effect are not as good as what you'd lose. Plus, the change to single target seems to not last very long. If it were more like how the chaos slayer class series has it, well, it'd be better.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 89
6/29/2018 17:23:32   
Rastaban
Member
 

ArchPaladin has been nerfed yet again. I do believe I'll be sticking that in the bank where it belongs.
Post #: 90
6/29/2018 17:24:44   
you stop
Member

quote:

AQW Class updates for 06/29/18
Ranger *
Auto Attack
Hits up to 2 targets

Mark for Death
Hits up to 2 targets
Max stack increase to 6

Explosive Bolt
Lower attack range to 2 targets
(max stack damage only affects 1 target)

Vampiric Shot
Hits up to 2 targets
Reduce mana cost to 35

Target Vitals (rank 4 passive)
Crit Chance increased to 15%


Exalted Harbinger/Dark Harbinger/ Soul Cleaver/ Exalted Soul Cleaver
Soul Snare - has been updated with the following changes.
Hit chance reduction lowered to 40%
New enemy debuff: Haste reduced by 40%

Infinity Knight
‘Not a Second Wasted’ (rank 10 passive) - has been updated.
Increase DoT by 12% and HoT by 12%


DeathKnight Lord
Mana Regen model has been updated.


ArchPaladin
Righteous Seal - has been updated with the following changes.
Enemy damage reduction lowered to 70%
Lowered player damage reduction to 40%


Eternal Inversionist
Statis - has been updated.
Now listed as physical damage instead of magical


Void Highlord
Shackle - description has been updated.


Classic Legion Doomknight
Several descriptions updated with more information and different formatting.


Legion Doomknight
Several descriptions updated with more information and different formatting.

Yoshino's tweet

Interesting change to ArchPal. I don't think it'll do any significant changes on how and when to use the class but it will need more help when taking down bosses. I like where this is going to be honest.

edit: added everything. might as well

also, @above the archpal nerfs were as needed as the harbinger nerfs. although i'd honestly see a change just like how metakirby explained for harbinger. for archpal, i think this change is more preferred.

< Message edited by you stop -- 6/29/2018 17:37:50 >
AQW  Post #: 91
6/29/2018 18:20:06   
Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!


Ranger finally got some well deserved love, I would even go as far as to call it a better 2 AoE class than Lycan, due to the auto attack and the fact that ALL skills hit 2 targets, but a little worse than old Vampire Lord. I would like to see if the secondary target of Explosive Bolt got some scaling as well, maybe not 100%, but 50% perhaps? That's all it really needs to sell it as a semi good farming class, even if it's niche, but don't expect it to be able to take on 2 hard hitting mobs at once (150-200+, usually). Is Ranger worth ranking for? Absolutely not, it's still a hard rep (for non members) and it's still only a "decent" class which only really works when fighting 2 enemies, it's still basically the same in terms of single target (aside from being able to stack up 1 more Mark), which means it's absolute garbage compared to any other half decent class. I also finally found out how the damage Reduction of Mark of Death works, it's just straight up 5%, whether you give 1 or 6 stacks, the wording of:
quote:

Reduces foe's damage by up to 5%
always confused me.

The Change to Archpaladin doesn't really mean a whole lot, aside from taking away the soloing viability on the bosses that were only barely able to be soloed by AP. With the proper use of AP (aka. with a Stonecrusher), you can still loop an insanely good damage reduction, plus with a good pile of Commandment stacks it's more or less irrelevant. You can still duo the Archfiend Dragonlord in Underlair very consistently with SC + AP, which means it's still as strong as ever in what it does. AP has definitely had it harsh the past year or so, decreased DoT to near insignificance (like 30 or so when fully stacked Divine), Sacred Magic Eden taking away Divine stacks as well and now this. At least you can deal slightly more damage while Sealed, which does mean at least it's a slightly faster soloer, if Seal is needed + making Seal Slightly more viable when using it to AoE farm with.

< Message edited by Metakirby -- 6/29/2018 18:21:05 >
AQW  Post #: 92
6/29/2018 23:33:28   
zanathos
Member

For an anniversary class that was initially somewhat difficult to gift and perfectly fit a unique niche, the AQW team certainly seems to go above and beyond to turn what was once one of my favorite classes into ashadow of its former self
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 93
6/30/2018 0:35:10   
Apetest
Member

Finally.

DF AQW  Post #: 94
6/30/2018 4:58:26   
Loftyz
Member

I thought Archpally would eventually go down to 50%, but I guess 70% is ok too. It's still the goto class for high hitting bosses since nobodies ever going to pre-buff and manually untarget themselves every fight.

I assume Harbinger will still be able to avoid most attacks? At least against low level enemies.

Infinity Knights passive used to be 10% more dot and hot. So it only went up by 2%. But 2% more damage on a Calender class will make a noticeable difference. Also there are some 2016 Calenders being sold on Heromart right now. So you can get the class if you want to.

Full luck Inversionist with BoA enhancement has 201 STR and 153 WIZ. So Stasis becoming physical means it gained maybe 5-10 damage? I take it.

I hope more classes can get reworked in the future, like Skyguard Grenadier and Royal Battlemage. Plenty of classes with very fun concepts, but skillsets that leave alot to be desired. I think Ranger could have been made a bit stronger though. It looks like the class would be pretty attractive for new players, but Sandsea rep is very slow to farm, so I don't think any new players would go for it when they have more appealing options like Blood/Scarlet Sorcerer, Necromancer, and Lycan.

< Message edited by Loftyz -- 6/30/2018 7:36:27 >
DF AQW  Post #: 95
6/30/2018 7:43:27   
XeNON_54
Member

If they are going to change Arch Pally I'd like the Commandment's cooldown to be a bit faster.

@Loftyz
Stasis has always been Physical not Magical.
The previous "Magical" description was a typo.

< Message edited by XeNON_54 -- 6/30/2018 8:02:09 >
Post #: 96
6/30/2018 10:27:48   
you stop
Member

Last I checked, Infinity Knight's fully stacked nuke does about what, 22000 per tick? That's essentially just 440 extra damage per tick, times 3 so 1320. I guess it'll really make a difference in terms of the auto attack passive but still, I don't think it's too noticeable. This is just on a solo and for obvious reasons, Infinity Knight will be needing support to function at its best. I guess it really will make a difference but I don't think it'll be enough to be able to substitute for other calendar classes, the class itself still needs 15 stacks by the end of the day and that'll take a wee bit of time.

@above: Isn't ArchPal Righteous Seal on a very decent cooldown? On its own, there's just a barely small window where it's down. With, at the very least, LightCaster haste buff, it's already loopable.

< Message edited by you stop -- 6/30/2018 10:31:16 >
AQW  Post #: 97
7/1/2018 8:32:18   
XeNON_54
Member

I would just want to Stack Commandment and Divine a lot quicker instead of relying on Righteous Seal all the time.
Is that really too much to ask?

Heck, Lightcaster's Lingering Light stacks way faster than ArchPaladin even though they both get compared with each other all the time.
Post #: 98
7/1/2018 19:17:41   
you stop
Member

Yes I actually do think having the ability to stack a debuff that makes the enemy miss 24/7 (and if it does hit, does 0 damage) stack faster is too much to ask. Lightcaster stacks naturally faster due to haste boost, and expires way faster too
AQW  Post #: 99
7/1/2018 21:58:14   
Edme MacHeath
Member

LightCaster has a shorter cooldown than commandment/devine. And then you can factor in the superior haste from the buffs.

Does anyone realize that harbringer no longer has the highest sustainable blind anymore? DoomKnight Ovelord and Chunin both have 50% and can loop it by themselves.
Although according to some miasma is 70%, but I have a hard time believing that. It's certain from my testing that chunin + doomknight overlord = 100% atleast. Which means DKOL has to be atleast 50%.
Harbringer does have a 40% haste debuff….but I personally don't really think that matters when chunin also has a really powerful slow and a 50% blind. Even if you have to line up 2 separate skills to land. Harbringer does have the ability to heal while chunin doesn't but in a huge fight where you would be using harbringer to nerf a challenge boss, you probably want a group healer that can mega nerf still like archpaladin.

The fact is you will probably use harbringer due to it's availability over chunin. Who really owns chunin? But in all totality. I'm not convinced harbringer is really a top support anymore.
It has better damage than chunin but it's not spectacular and in the event of fighting a boss, the priority is surviving.

Harbringer is only slightly behind in defense and has the advantage of self healing and higher DPS, so in most situations Harbringer is still a better pick.


Although potentially not as good as either, StoneCrusher may be slightly more viable in conjunction with archpaladin than archpaladin + harbringer, remember SC still gives 50% resist to the entire party.
70% resist is no longer the same protect the entire party against anything any boss except like 2 in the game. combined with the change to harbringer being a 40% blind and haste debuff.
The HoT + loopable 50% defense may stack better with AP than harbringers 40% and 40%.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 7/1/2018 22:04:20 >
AQ  Post #: 100
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