RE: =DF= New Stat Changes


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5/5/2018 4:21:15

BluuHorseOfficial
Member

Actually, 67 per turn is great! Anyway, though, I’d say STR is better than INT for a higher damage output if that is what you want. Great job getting something that you like! If you try it with 40 STR you may get closer to what you were.

DF	Post #: 76

5/5/2018 4:23:14

raylas
Member

^ I might, eventually.

Read the edit on my last post, I just lost basically everything.

Post #: 77

5/5/2018 7:29:11

Rafiq von den Vielen
Member

so I'm thinking of giving my SWoT char Ranger as a tertiary (okay probably secondary, I guess I'll store Rage DL away for a while) class.

Would 200 DEX, 100 STR work with the remaining stats split among WIS/END/LUX in some way for that?

< Message edited by Rafiq von den Vielen -- 5/5/2018 7:31:11 >

Post #: 78

5/5/2018 7:51:19

BluuHorseOfficial
Member

^
Yes, it may. I guess you could try it out. :)

DF	Post #: 79

5/5/2018 15:56:11

godofthunder4
Member

Is the discount for retraining stats still valid? I don’t have a lot of gold and I don’t want to farm for hours just to reset my stats.

DF	Post #: 80

5/5/2018 16:01:59

Shadow X Ascendant
Member

No, Verlyrus said that it was only for the last week

AQW

Post #: 81

5/6/2018 3:31:34

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@raylas - I'm very sorry to hear that you lost your stats and have to farm up some gold to re-allocate them (if it was a bug, perhaps you could submit a bug report and try to get them re-invested for you?), but I'm confused as to why you were so upset that you wanted to re-do your build in the first place... You lost literally 2 stat damage (out of 100+ base since you're 85) and 4% crit damage (out of 175-200% base) from this change; that's so minor that you wouldn't even notice if you weren't told about it. It does allow for you to create a stronger build than you had before, but that hardly seems something to be upset about.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 5/6/2018 3:32:08 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 82

5/6/2018 6:07:12

EdyMaster
Member

After much thinking I came to the conclusion that these changes are not fair to everyone. The fact that STR gives stat bonus damage% clearly benefits MUCH who has the base class Warrior. Even for those who do not use RW for example, they should still have their weapons focused on Swords or Axes that cause Melee damage and are therefore scaled by STR. Now who uses the other types of weapons, Magic or Pierce, they should still focus on their respective stats to receive a higher bonus damage (as this is still the biggest source of damage they can have). Meanwhile users focused on STR/Melee weapons have the best of both worlds on a single stat, not to mention the additional Immobility. To exemplify better.

Attack Type: Melee, with 250 STR has: +25 bonus damage using Swords, +12 bonus damage%, +50 Immobility.
Attack Type: Magic, with 250 INT has: +25 bonus damage using Staff, +25 BtH, +25 critical hit damage
Attack Type: Pierce, with 250 DEX has: +25 bonus damage using Dagger, 12.5% glancing blow, +25 DoT.

Note that STR gains an incredible +37 bonus damage, a difference of 12 more than the others (which is equal to the old LUK, 240 LUK = 12 bonus damage). That is, 250 STR now gives the same bonus damage as 250 STR + 240 LUK in the old formula (and can overcome if the character has more than 250 STR). And this leaves offensive users of Swords free to add 200 points in the current LUK for example, which will grant not 10 crit as before but 20 crit currently. And even if they do not want to invest in LUK, they can invest in ANY other stat without losing bonus damage like other classes with different types of weapons that, if they do not invest in STR, are at this moment nerfed.

My suggestions for resolving this are:

A) Add the same multiplicative bonus damage gain on the other stats (INT/5)% and (DEX/5)% but make them not stack different stats (example: INT% bonus only works with INT and not added with STR or DEX).

B) Remove the multiplicative STR bonus gain and increase the normal bonus damage gain on all three stats (for example STR/8, INT/8, DEX/8).

~~C) Everyone exchange their weapons for Swords and Axes, and forget about classes with skills attached to attack types.~~

For me if all stats generate the same damage gain and differ only by the extra attributes (STR = Immobility, INT = Bonus/critical hit damage, DEX = DoT/glancing blows) I will agree. I know that the intention of this update was to bring more diversity in the builds, but we can not forget the different types of classes and weapons that exist in the game, each with its specific type of attack, especially when talking about the base classes. Stirring this can cause a mess.

DF	Post #: 83

5/6/2018 7:01:33

Shiny_Underpants
Member

Honestly, I think STR is in a good place right now, and I wouldn't want that balance to be upset. Bonus damage for weapon types has only been done for rogue and its variants so far, and I feel that devaluing scythes isn't necessary. If each weapon type were adjusted to give a certain amount of extra points depending on its damage (STR for swords, INT for staves, etc.) this would have a similar effect anyway, though less in terms of flat damage than adding to their secondary effects. In this case, scythes wouldn't lose their value. Realistically, you want scythes not to be strictly outstripped by their equivalent sword/dagger/staff weapons; they exist for convenience, so they shouldn't be completely curbstomped in comparison to other weapons.

Post #: 84

5/6/2018 10:20:52

Greyor_42
Member

@EdyMaster

quote:

Attack Type: Melee, with 250 STR has: +25 bonus damage using Swords, +12 bonus damage%, +50 Immobility.
Attack Type: Magic, with 250 INT has: +25 bonus damage using Staff, +25 BtH, +25 critical hit damage
Attack Type: Pierce, with 250 DEX has: +25 bonus damage using Dagger, 12.5% glancing blow, +25 DoT.

Note that STR gains an incredible +37 bonus damage, a difference of 12 more than the others (which is equal to the old LUK, 240 LUK = 12 bonus damage).

One of these things is correct. One of them is not. It's not a flat 12 points of damage increase. It's a % increase to the stats that it already gives. In other words, the +25 is increased by 12%, not 12. 12% of 25 is only 3. 250 STR is a 28 point increase. That's it. Not 37. Thus, it's not as imbalanced towards STR as you seem to think.

DF	Post #: 85

5/6/2018 10:42:45

BluuHorseOfficial
Member

In any case, ranger with ~200 STR/200 DEX is still a really good offensive class because it is damage locked AND gives an additional additive 15% damage boost! I can’t wait to try out and check how good ranger is with the Endless Invasion, though, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..................

DF	Post #: 86

5/6/2018 12:46:37

godofthunder4
Member

So the current stat effects are

STR: Increases base stat damage and immobility resistance.
INT: Increases crit damage and bonus to hit
DEX: Increases DOT damage and reduces glancing blow damage
LUK: Increases M/P/M defenses and base crit rate
CHA: Increases guest base damage.
WIS and END are unchanged.

So if you’re looking to increase your overall damage, you would only use axes/maces/swords, “warrior” weapons that primarily increase STR, even if your class is a mage or rogue?

DF	Post #: 87

5/6/2018 12:56:24

BluuHorseOfficial
Member

No, STR can be invested into with any class. Actually, you can have 200 STR/200 INT and still do Magic damage if equipping a staff/wand. However, damage type doesn’t really matter. The point is that you’re doing damage. Although, yes, STR allows you to be more flexible. However, do note that a Mage wielding a Scythe having only 200 STR will still do good damage even if he/she does Melee Damage with his/her spells.

DF	Post #: 88

5/6/2018 12:56:29

Zeldax
Member

@Greyor_42
Actually, I believe EdyMaster is correct. Using Verly's example; at 250 STR, you get +25 bonus damage, as well as 50% more stat bonus damage. 50% of 25 is 12.5, and if you add 25 and 12.5, you get 37.5% bonus damage.

< Message edited by Zeldax -- 5/6/2018 12:58:18 >

Post #: 89

5/6/2018 15:43:34

EdyMaster
Member

@Greyor_42
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Verlyrus said:

quote:

STR:

Increases Immobility resistance by 20% of STR.
Increases stat bonus damage by (STR/5)%, multiplicative.
For example, at 250 STR, the stat bonus damage will be 50% greater.

Since I do not have Warrior or Swords, take as an example the stats of the Baron Dante: https://imgur.com/PF6H77t

At 259 STR he has 25.9 bonus damage for using Sword (259/10).
At 259 STR it has +51% bonus damage multiplicative stat (259/5).
51% of 25.9 is +13.2. Throw out the decimals and we have 25+13=38 damage.
Baron Dante is using UBLoD = 85-115 damage. Add +38 damage and we have 123-153.

STR today has the same stat damage as STR+LUK before. For those who had an offensive build before 200 STR+200 LUK but do not use Sword, they currently lose bonus damage if they do not want to invest in STR along with their main stat. And even if they invested, they will lose the crit they had before because they did not have LUK points. Meanwhile Warriors can hold 200 STR+200 LUK without losing any bonus damage, and instead receive more crit since now the calculation is LUK/10 and not LUK/20 as before.

Offensively speaking, this change greatly benefits the use of Swords/Axes/Scythe and harms those who use Staff and Dagger. Besides being excellent defensively also providing MUCH immobility.

< Message edited by EdyMaster -- 5/6/2018 15:47:14 >

DF	Post #: 90

5/6/2018 16:34:18

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@EdyMaster - I agree that this change seems to miss the fact that people still have to use specific damage stats for specific weapons (I went over that on page 2 even), but you're severely overstating Str's power. Yes, Str can give the same flat base damage as Str + Luk had before, but with less crit damage. Likewise, Int can give even more crit damage than Int + Luk had before (because it's the same per point but you can get the "main" stats higher than you can get Luk), but less base damage. Neither is superior to the other as a standalone stat in terms of offense, however where Str wins is in its tertiary effect, because Immobility resistance is vastly superior to Int's rather meaningless Bonus. Dex is worse offensively, if you don't use a class that makes significant use of DoT effects, but it's extremely strong on classes that do and has a powerful defensive tertiary effect as well, useful on everything rather than only on things that can stun. I suppose you could say Str is the best overall since it has offense equal to Int and defensive utility as well, making it more generally-useful, but your proposed change would just shift any current imbalance to a more drastic one; Int would be far and away the best stat offensively, Dex would still be the best defensive stat while now being equal in offense to Str (and much stronger on DoT classes), while the only use Str would have if you were choosing between the 3 is fighting a specific enemy that you need to avoid stuns on.

But as I said, I do agree that it's a bit misguided. What's the point of giving variety to the damage types when players are forced into a specific one by their choice of class anyway? Sure, you can use a different stat than the one useful to your base, but if you're a Mage or Rogue then that precludes you from using the incredibly strong Atealan version of your base, since they're just as restricted; Ascendant has to use a staff/wand, scythe or dagger and their important damage spells are locked to Magic even if you do use a scythe or dagger. Cryptic has a couple important skills locked when using anything but daggers or a scythe, as well as a couple skills locked to Pierce. Riftwalker is the only one that isn't forced into a particular stat, but even then people are likely to use melee weapons to go with their Warrior base thematically and if they ever want to use a DoT-focused class properly they'll have to either focus on getting 100% scythe coverage or farm up a whole set of daggers just for that one class. Even if you don't want to switch to a class that requires a specific stat to work optimally, isn't the point of having diversity in stat effects that you can choose which ones you want? But if doing so requires you to spend a huge amount of money and re-do your whole weapon setup (and some might be rares that you can't even replace), that just seems to completely defeat the purpose to me. I'll avoid talking about the exorbitant cost to retrain for now since Verly has mentioned it already, but it is a big issue for the moment as we can see from posts in this thread.

@godofthunder - Well, not quite, the main damage stats kept the stat damage they had before (1 per 10 points) for their respective damage types, they just got new, additional effects on top of that. So each main stat is still the best for its own weapons; Int is still the best for staves and wands, Dex is still the best for daggers and fists, Str is still the best for swords, axes, maces, etc.

So, to correct your list:

STR: Increases stat damage, further increases stat damage by a percentage and increases immobility resistance.
INT: Increases stat damage, crit damage and bonus to hit
DEX: Increases stat damage, DOT damage and reduces glancing blow damage
LUK: Increases M/P/M defenses, direct hit chance and base crit rate
CHA, WIS and END are unchanged.

< Message edited by Sakurai the Cursed -- 5/6/2018 16:57:16 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 91

5/6/2018 18:20:53

Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat

Putting STR on a pedestal above all else is looking at the stats in too much of a vacuum.
If all there is to a fight is clicking the Attack button, even then, depending on crit rate, INT's crit damage bonus can outpace STR.
If you use a single DoT with dex's bonus, that's already double the damage you get from STR per turn that the DoT is on, plus the glancing blow damage reduction is rather large.
If you can sustain a 50% single DoT uptime, Dex's bonus matches STR. More DoTs than that? You're already ahead.

Outside of Inn challenges and perhaps a few specific hard fights, there's not really too much difference- there are few enemies that stun. Shields still prevent stuns. STR builds just have the additional option to tank a stunning hit rather than having to blind or shield.
But most players won't see too much of a difference when farming waves for wars or playing through stories.

Keep in mind that you will also have a lot of base stats from gear too- so you will have a little bit of everything on top of whatever you train to be primary. These changes make use of those stats rather than having those just be wasted outside of your main stat.

Also keep in mind that these are all buffs (other than the LUK change to be less of a main stat). You can run whatever you want and still be just as effective as before- but if you want to min-max for the new effects, then yes you will have to think about focusing more or having a greater variety of weapons. Base classes and base class variants may be damage type locked, but there are many other classes that are not. Base classes and base class variants were damage type locked before, and this doesn't change that.

Before the change, if you wanted to use a DoT focused class, you could, but you'd be disappointed at the damage output. Now, it's the same- but you also have the option to specialize into a DoT focused class if you want to. Or you don't have to specialize and the extra main stats will still provide a noticeable boost.

I understand that if you want to be optimal for every class you may have to re-gear and get new items. However, I view this as less of a negative and more of a positive. Not so much "You have to get a full set of everything if you want to cover all the bases" more so "You now have the option to get multiple sets of gear that open up and benefit different playstyles".

Please correct me if I'm understanding the concerns incorrectly- I appreciate all the feedback!

< Message edited by Verlyrus -- 5/6/2018 18:21:42 >

Post #: 92

5/7/2018 12:44:21

BluuHorseOfficial
Member

Yes, actually. The new stat changes allow the game to be far more versatile! DEX on Ninja is just *blows a kiss in the air*. I wanna see if DEX Ninja can beat up some of the harder bosses like ManaCrest or maybe Dave on his own (maybe not though), and some other bosses. I beleive it will be hard to adjust the stats for some people now, but we do have people here who are happy to help out with stats, so I guess everyone, even those who feel the stat changes aren’t for them, can feel at home more with these changes and enjoy them more, and the whole game itself more. You’re doing a great job with this, Verly!

About the earlier predicted updates, @Verlyrus, are the special effects for each genus (I’ll refer to it this way as, to me, it makes much more sense) going to affect every battle or just the ones in Hard Mode?

DF	Post #: 93

5/7/2018 12:55:08

ballistik
Member

The change is nice in terms of the nerf to LUK and it adds good additional effects to the main stats. There's more variety now. And I would argue that the 3 main stats are quite balanced right now.

That being said, there are some concerns with this change. The good thing about Dragonfable is the ability to play and enjoy all these different classes. Especially for the Inn Challenges, most of the time there's a specific class that needs to be used. However, now if you want to change from DPS class to a defensive one, or a DoT-heavy one, you need to retrain your stats every time in order to be optimal. Moreover, you'll need to collect swords, daggers and staffs at the same time to be able to switch for optimality again. Some of which are rare and unobtainable, or others like the destiny / doom weapons would require a lot of grind.

For example, lets say we are doing a new Inn Challenge. You'd like to go through a lot of classes to figure out which works best. If you want to try soulweaver, ranger, necromancer, etc., you'd arguably need to retrain stats every time (optimality is definitely important for the challenges). Previously, you'd need to retrain maybe once if you needed more health or damage.

All in all, the change adds really nice variety of builds and is definitely welcomed, since it gives you an opportunity to choose what best suits your style and the class. The swords / daggers / staffs problems is minor (+10/15 to a stat won't change that much) and can be mitigated by scythes. However, I'd argue that it almost discourages you from playing with multiple classes, since you'd be forced to retrain every time you switch and it costs a lot of money.

If I have to be honest, I still don't really understand why stat retraining has to be so expensive (or why it costs in general). I think that greatly decreasing the stat training / retraining cost or even removing it would definitely help this change and that way everyone would be able to make the most of it. People would be able to experiment so much with the classes both in quests and in the Inn Challenges. It will encourage more play time from everyone.

DF	Post #: 94

5/7/2018 13:30:59

Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat

Addressing the stat training cost is high priority for me- and I totally realize it's a huge issue currently. I expect to deal with it by the next Inn challenge, if not earlier.

Post #: 95

5/7/2018 20:08:49

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

I guess I'm in the minority in that I have millions of gold and nothing to do with it, so while I understand the concern for newer/less dedicated players, the cost to retrain is inconsequential to me. It's the need to farm multiple sets of weapons that I'm not a fan of, because as much as you say it's not necessary to be optimal, it is necessary for some challenging fights and either way if you provide people with a way to become stronger then they're going to want to use it. And I do, but I simply don't have the desire or the necessary time to do the immense amount of farming I'd need to to to be able to use any class I like optimally, which doesn't sit well with me whether it's game-breaking or not since I could easily do so before this change; you may not have nerfed me with the changes, but you took away my ability to use any class I like to the fullest. Just my own opinion, of probably an extreme minority in DF if I'm honest. It'd be alright if there were at least one scythe with good stats (not necessarily the best of the best but not completely out-shined by a much better non-scythe [except the Destiny weapons of course, but I already have all 3 anyway lol]) for every element at level 85 though, then my only problem would be aesthetics but that's a personal thing that I don't expect the game to design itself around; I already have a few scythes of course, so it wouldn't take much more to fill me out, and as long as I have the tools I need when I want to try something it's all good, while I can keep my staves for general gameplay.

That aside, I think the stats are balanced pretty well now; buffing Dex's defense was needed I think since its offensive use is so niche, now they each have their own particular use and are each strong in their own right. I do still think that Int's Bonus is rather meaningless and it'd be nice to have something else, but it's not really a big deal.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 96

5/7/2018 20:22:58

Baron Dante
Member

So, talking about now needing "triple" the weapons (Which isn't exactly true, but you know what I mean), in addition to being an issue with having to get them, I'd like to also point the issue of SPACE. You might not need all of this in your inventory all at once or anything, but the way items are stored in your bank is, for the regular player, basically random. Having to fill it up with even more stuff is going to make finding anything there terrible (I would know. I can spend 30 minutes looking for what I need there as is, and that'll be worse now)

AQW

Epic

Post #: 97

5/7/2018 20:56:33

Sun Wukong
Member

Does DEX increase DmK's Lingering Doom DOT?
Also IBR's DOTs?

< Message edited by Sun Wukong -- 5/7/2018 20:58:34 >

Post #: 98

5/7/2018 21:10:36

LouisCyphere
Member

So new Design Notes for Engine 14.2.43

Well, looks like the recent changes is really diversifying builds.
The way I'm seeing it is that, offensive builds are separated into two. classes with insta-crit and classes that don't have it.
Offensive Classes with Insta-Crit would rather go Main Stat/INT with main stat and INT gear since main stat is still the main source of damage. I would call this the Cookie Cutter build since it can finish battles easier but may have trouble with long battles.
Offensive Classes with less Insta-Crit skills would go with Main stat/LUK and crit gear. Don't have a name for this yet but buff for Crit chance from LUK is going to be useful in long battles when nuke skills are in cooldown.

As for defensive builds, I'm guessing DEX and LUK with MPM gear since LUK increases MPM too.
I'm still really hoping for END to have an additional feature. Although the 1k HP look nice, we have several ways to recover HP. And any HP left after a battle is wasted HP.

Oh, and there's class-exclusive builds too I guess. With Ranger being the prime example.
With STR/DEX Ranger. Unlike before where a STR/DEX Ranger was underperforming compared to a DEX/LUK Ranger.

Now if only we can have a class like ranger that gives bonuses for investing in STR and INT.

AE really needs to hire more animator and coders for DF

And another thing,

quote:

Not so much "You have to get a full set of everything if you want to cover all the bases" more so "You now have the option to get multiple sets of gear that open up and benefit different playstyles".

This is basically the gist of the recent engine changes. Free DA banking is a godsend. Imagine if we didn't have that.
Still gonna mess around with different builds to get a feel of them.

< Message edited by LouisCyphere -- 5/7/2018 21:57:31 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 99

5/7/2018 22:28:04

BluuHorseOfficial
Member

Thing is, AE generally accepts volunteers in art or animation somewhat more than misic composers. They generally mever hire coders and programmers because this is all very fragile stuff which could easily get demolished be it the person wants the game to go down.

DF	Post #: 100

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