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RE: Design Notes: May 4, 2018: The Endless Invasion Challenge!

 
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5/8/2018 18:57:45   
The Jop
Member

I'll listen to Dante on this; Togslayer is a fun class, but not really worth 1000 battles of increasing difficulty. I'll leave this challenge be, and just take the few I did as an elongated way to get defender's metals. Good luck to everyone else still on that journey though.

< Message edited by The Jop -- 5/8/2018 18:58:48 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 251
5/8/2018 19:11:44   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

@Baron Dante, and To win the New Book of Lore's Badge Too, Right?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 252
5/8/2018 20:28:37   
Kurtz96
Member

I just don't want DragonFable to become one of the those games where new players, lower level players, and players with no money and or time to spend are discouraged and punished while all the top level players sit there all smug with all the best equipment and achievements.
I admit I am probably in the latter group but that should highlight my point. I know these Inn challenges are not for everyone, but accomplishments and achievements are what games should be about. And if you release a quest/challenge/event that a majority of people cannot complete, it is discouraging. Sure you can just ignore this release, but you will always have that blank badge to remind you of your failure/inability to do this challenge.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 5/8/2018 20:31:57 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 253
5/8/2018 20:40:09   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

That's What will Pursue me.....
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 254
5/8/2018 21:16:45   
Baron Dante
Member

quote:

I just don't want DragonFable to become one of the those games where new players, lower level players, and players with no money and or time to spend are discouraged and punished while all the top level players sit there all smug with all the best equipment and achievements.
I admit I am probably in the latter group but that should highlight my point. I know these Inn challenges are not for everyone, but accomplishments and achievements are what games should be about. And if you release a quest/challenge/event that a majority of people cannot complete, it is discouraging. Sure you can just ignore this release, but you will always have that blank badge to remind you of your failure/inability to do this challenge.

I don't know about that. I mean, as it stands, all of the challenges are not doable by non-DA players. On one hand, it's kind of unfortunate, since that means that it's essentially "pay2win" content. But on the other hand, if everything was made with non-DA players in mind, would the challenge aspect not quickly fade away for those players that have more than that?

And I don't mean that in the way that "if you don't have a specific pile of rares from the last decade, you can't do it" in a way. I do think that these challenges should at least be doable without any further cost than the initial DA, and at least so far, that's how it's been. This challenge is probably no different in that regard.

That being said, I don't thin it's necessarily an issue that players can't easily finish content like this. The way I view it, it should be the opposite. It shouldn't discourage them because they can't do it, it should encourage them to try harder, to get better at the game. Ignoring the rares situation, that's how you make a "top level player". You put in effort. It's all about those choices at the end. Do you think a reskin of a class (and a badge) are worth hours and hours of grinding, and probably experimenting with strategies? No? Then you have the power to decide that it's not worth it, and you ignore it. If the lack of the badge bugs you so much, clearly it's worth the time?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 255
5/8/2018 22:29:02   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member

Yeah. If it was designed solely for players who have, say, half of the Pirate skills unlocked, then just imagine how easy it would be for those who had the rest, like Backstab damage reflection, cannon nuke+stun, and a bunch of other strong skills. Yes, it wouldnít even be a challenge
DF  Post #: 256
5/8/2018 23:23:50   
Giratina87
Member

If I may add, it is actually much better to fight as a non-DA if the CHALLENGE is what you're after; once you unlock all the rest, it can be too easy. It makes you stay on your toes and actually think about your next move.

In fact, it's more satisfying because of the victory over the extreme difficulty. Sure it was annoying for me when the Sporca was released (it almost make me quit really), but I willed it a bit more and now I have little Sporcaling in tow (dat cute lil guy <3).

Time was never the essence of the challenges, which is kinda ironic since the challenges are at the Inn at the EDGE OF TIME. Then again, time seems stopped here, so take as much TIME as you need. You may not complete it now, but if you experiment, you might happen to have a strategy that is surprisingly effective, despite looking stupid. ever heard a normal Chicken Cow defeat a Leorilla, using a massive amount of Mad ChickenCow Attack? Take a long, long time, mind you. Now I just need to deal with the Omae wa Mou Shindeiru...

So, in short, they're not impossible, just quite infuriatingly difficult. THAT'S the challenge. Can you keep your patience?

Otherwise, if challenge is not your thing, it's your choice whether to play it for the lulz or ignore it altogether, which includes foregoing the badge and/or the rewards. If you think about it, if you really want the reward badly, you'd put yourself in that despite how it makes you want to smash a keyboard or fling the mouse to a nearby cat. If it's not worth the effort and frustration, why bother? And while this means forgetting about the reward, there shouldn't be regret, because you will have to weigh in effort vs reward. This is why I don't bother with the Meowphant in this case, because I would prefer the Leorilla Mane Belt IV over that. I play it once in a while, just to trigger the Meowphant, but not as much as to try to defeat it. But since I want the portable TogSlayer armor (I'm quite lazy adventurer and prefer to have stuff with me than having to go elsewhere for a piece of armor, besides, I wonder how the re-skin looks), I grind.

Now as for the chain-skill classes (Warrior, SoulWeaver, etc. ) indirect nerf, I do agree with Eragon Dragus with the shield bypass crits on the last hit. After all, it's still a LAST HIT and Crit means that it hit right in the kokoro (therefore a hit, basically), even if the other hits were dodged in a way like the mosquito from One Punch Man (the only critter that Saitama can't kill, apparently).

Sorry for the long post. BTW what do you put here in place of a potato or banana?
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 257
5/9/2018 9:54:20   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

I don't know about that. I mean, as it stands, all of the challenges are not doable by non-DA players. On one hand, it's kind of unfortunate, since that means that it's essentially "pay2win" content. But on the other hand, if everything was made with non-DA players in mind, would the challenge aspect not quickly fade away for those players that have more than that?

And I don't mean that in the way that "if you don't have a specific pile of rares from the last decade, you can't do it" in a way. I do think that these challenges should at least be doable without any further cost than the initial DA, and at least so far, that's how it's been. This challenge is probably no different in that regard.

That being said, I don't thin it's necessarily an issue that players can't easily finish content like this. The way I view it, it should be the opposite. It shouldn't discourage them because they can't do it, it should encourage them to try harder, to get better at the game. Ignoring the rares situation, that's how you make a "top level player". You put in effort. It's all about those choices at the end. Do you think a reskin of a class (and a badge) are worth hours and hours of grinding, and probably experimenting with strategies? No? Then you have the power to decide that it's not worth it, and you ignore it. If the lack of the badge bugs you so much, clearly it's worth the time?


The time is the main issue though. The battles themselves as individuals are not too hard. It problem is the time and how tedious it is. Again I go back to my university example: imagine doing basic arithmetic questions (1+1=2) for hours everyday. All the arguments about encouraging you to become a top students (top player) also work here. And it is not OK. Check my posts on the previous page for the full analogy, don't want to retype it.

Yes there is some mild innovative game play at the very end as you try to find the optimal strategy, but for almost the entire grind it isn't. Just one tactic and go.

Also, rewards in the Inn of Time usually depend on previous rewards to make, like the baby chimera.

quote:

If I may add, it is actually much better to fight as a non-DA if the CHALLENGE is what you're after; once you unlock all the rest, it can be too easy. It makes you stay on your toes and actually think about your next move.

In fact, it's more satisfying because of the victory over the extreme difficulty. Sure it was annoying for me when the Sporca was released (it almost make me quit really), but I willed it a bit more and now I have little Sporcaling in tow (dat cute lil guy <3).

I prefer boss battles because they are actually challenges. And that is the problem with this one. It isn't a challenge in that here is a tough thing to do. This challenge is here is a time consuming thing to do.
If I fought the level 1000 tog right now, I could win after maybe 2 or 3 tries in about 5 minutes.
This challenge's difficulty comes from the length of time it takes. Which is my main argument. Below is my main point.

The difficulty of a challenge should not be affected by real world issues that players and staff have no control over. Imagine if there was a challenge that you could only win if it was 12 degrees in London at 12:45pm. This is not OK. This challenge naturally favors people with more time. Maybe they are on vacation or have finished university.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 5/9/2018 10:00:10 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 258
5/9/2018 10:08:27   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

I just hope that dreamspace III are Bosses Fights or Farming Areas like TimeTorn, which we explore an maze, fight enemies and get pieces to change into new items like TT Warblade / hilt / Sigil / Teleshard, NPS Blade.... Maybe even a Kathool or Wargoth battle

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 5/9/2018 10:09:12 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 259
5/9/2018 11:16:20   
1997godown
Member

Well, everything was going really well. I am now at 512, since 500 progress has slowed dramatically. Anyone find a quick way to kill them past 500?
DF  Post #: 260
5/9/2018 11:41:01   
Eltar
Member

quote:

This challenge naturally favors people with more time. Maybe they are on vacation or have finished university.


This challenge was meant to be taken at one's own pace, also finishing university doesn't make you have more time because the purpose of it is to have the knowledge and diploma to work on a certain job
Post #: 261
5/9/2018 12:30:48   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member

@Kurtz96, See, everyone is in different situations. The game really isnít imposing it on you to forcedly finish this by a certain time the way your university does. A good pleasent solution would be to do a few a day. 10 or 20 is fine. If youíre in the mood to grind a bit, do some more. Try doing something else as youíre grinding, such as listening to music or watching something. A good solution, Iíd say, would be to study as hard as you can to reward yourself with some time on music, as you grind Tog waves while listening. Granted, Tog Waves are more tedious than War Waves, but in the end you get a very rare-to-own badge, and a reward that would potentially become a very useful asset to you. Furthermore, 200 DMs and a constant source of farming them other than Fires Over Oaklore.

Hope this helps. :p
DF  Post #: 262
5/9/2018 12:34:09   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

If when Soulweaver , and we uses two hits skills, one hit is glancing blow and the last one is crit, if at least this was counted as a hit, or when the enemy is with shield and ALL MY HITS BE CRIT should be counted as a hit, has supposed to be, This challenge could me more ... possible. I think verlyrus hates Soulweaver somehow... it's the only reason that fits in...


376-400 = From a Volcano To a Full Bright Crystal Cave

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 5/9/2018 13:14:13 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 263
5/9/2018 13:08:08   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

This challenge was meant to be taken at one's own pace, also finishing university doesn't make you have more time because the purpose of it is to have the knowledge and diploma to work on a certain job

I mean, and it should go without saying, when one is done a year of university and are on summer vacation/between summer jobs.

quote:

@Kurtz96, See, everyone is in different situations. The game really isnít imposing it on you to forcedly finish this by a certain time the way your university does. A good pleasent solution would be to do a few a day. 10 or 20 is fine. If youíre in the mood to grind a bit, do some more. Try doing something else as youíre grinding, such as listening to music or watching something. A good solution, Iíd say, would be to study as hard as you can to reward yourself with some time on music, as you grind Tog waves while listening. Granted, Tog Waves are more tedious than War Waves, but in the end you get a very rare-to-own badge, and a reward that would potentially become a very useful asset to you. Furthermore, 200 DMs and a constant source of farming them other than Fires Over Oaklore.

Again, the idea of going at your own available pace is fine, but does not answer my main complaint which I put in bold on my last post. Copy and pasting from earlier this page:
The difficulty of a challenge should not be affected by real world issues that players and staff have no control over. Imagine if there was a challenge that you could only win if it was 12 degrees in London at 12:45pm. This is not OK. This challenge naturally favors people with more time. Maybe they are on vacation or have finished university.

To use an Inn challenge as an example: imagine if Sporca had a mechanic where it can only be defeated if you had played for at least 3 hours everyday for a week. Not everyone can do that, and the reasons why they can't might be totally out of their control.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 264
5/9/2018 13:20:01   
Eltar
Member

If it open for interpretations, one should clarify. As for the bolds, this challenge is more likely to be completed first by those who have time, this is not a race and shouldn't be take as such.
Using your sporca example, as long as those seven days aren't in a row is doable in due time, which is the case here.

< Message edited by Eltar -- 5/9/2018 13:21:00 >
Post #: 265
5/9/2018 13:32:46   
Kurtz96
Member

The in due time argument can be applied to anything though and is still not good design. You can make it about anything. Sometime eventually, whether it be in 1 year, 5 years, or 10 years, it will be 12 degrees in London at 12:45pm.

Saying in due time is like saying: "keep trying, after 10000 hours of trying you will finally beat LeBronn James/Cristiano Ronaldo/Lionel Messi in a game and you can finally get your season tickets (the class) and a twitter mention (the badge)." Can you do it? Sure, eventually if you practice enough.

Consider this: For most challenges, the more skilled player wins. Here it is not the case, the person with more time wins. You can mindlessly grind and complete the challenge before someone who is a expert at maximizing equipment and stats.
With my sport example: normally the more skilled players would win (maybe you are an NCAA players who is OK at the game), however, instead the worst player with more time completes the challenge (me, who has no basketball experience but a lot of time). Rewards should not be handed out based on this. So what was the point of the NCAA player putting in all that work? Some random nobody with more time just beat you.

Anyways, ironically I am out of time and have to go do something else. If this discussion continues I will reply tonight (for those of you in other time zones in 8 hours).

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 5/9/2018 13:46:55 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 266
5/9/2018 13:49:53   
Eltar
Member

Your example applies to a competition scenario which is not the case here, this is a solo game with community goals. Any self imposed challenges and deadlines only apply to oneself and thus are irrelevant to the rest of the players.

Edit: I meant you are comparing playing against sport stars to a game with a bunch of scaling enemies with a foreseeable pattern, also your season ticket reward is related to a one time reward (which is good for said season) while the badge will stay until DF pretty much ceases to exist.

Again this is not a race and nobody is rushing anybody to complete it nor this is a pvp driven game where we must fight one another to get a reward


< Message edited by Eltar -- 5/9/2018 13:59:49 >
Post #: 267
5/9/2018 13:51:18   
Kurtz96
Member

My example of getting tickets and twitter mention is also personal? It is a solo thing too. Again continue later tonight.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 5/9/2018 13:52:27 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 268
5/9/2018 13:52:16   
Greyor_42
Member

@kurtz

quote:

Consider this: For most challenges, the more skilled player wins. Here it is not the case, the person with more time wins.


They have considered that. They found it wrong, because as they rightly said, it's not a race. There's no time limit, it's something you're meant to do at your own pace, whatever that pace is. Your analogies don't work, because they all assume that you're required to do it for hours on end, which you aren't.

quote:

With my sport example: normally the more skilled players would win (maybe you are an NCAA players who is OK at the game), however, instead the worst player with more time completes the challenge (me, who has no basketball experience but a lot of time). Rewards should not be handed out based on this. So what was the point of the NCAA player putting in all that work? Some random nobody with more time just beat you.


Stop treating it like you have to win faster than other people. As Baron Dante has said on multiple occasions as well, comparing your real life situation and how it affects how you play the game to someone else's is not healthy, and it shouldn't be done. Also, that example doesn't work, because other people winning, surprise surprise, doesn't take away your ability to win, or affect your gameplay in any way, shape, or form. Nobody is beating anybody with any of the challenges, because they aren't PVP.

And the tickets and twitter mention thing you brought up don't work here either, because unlike the tickests, the reward for this challenge isn't finite. You're not taking someone else's chance of getting the Dreaming Togslayer armor when you reach the 1,000th floor. And the twitter mention doesn't work either, because the badges aren't public and can't even be shown off except in person, and with a screenshot posted online.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 5/9/2018 13:55:51 >
DF  Post #: 269
5/9/2018 14:01:16   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

Stop treating it like you have to win faster than other people. As Baron Dante has said on multiple occasions as well, comparing your real life situation and how it affects how you play the game to someone else's is not healthy, and it shouldn't be done. Also, that example doesn't work, because other people winning, surprise surprise, doesn't take away your ability to win, or affect your gameplay in any way, shape, or form. Nobody is beating anybody with any of the challenges, because they aren't PVP.


Being a solo game does not prevent stuff from being overly long, nor do I want to finish faster than others. And the idea that you go at your own pace is good, but you still have to beat the same number of battles, so going at you own place still takes x amount of grind time, just spread out over a long time. The total amount of time is the same. You don't have to compare with others to find the too long grind tedious. Compare that with the usual boss battles, which involve changing your build and getting the right equipment. Very exciting to go through.

And my tickets example doesn't have to be taken as limited. Challenges like that often don't have a limit because they don't expect a lot of people to complete it. But it was just an example I thought of that has not been exhaustively researched so it may not be perfect. Also badge can be seen by others if you see their character page. Like I just clicked on the character page below your avatar and just click the badge button. But this is just nitpicking.

Continue later tonight as I said above.

EDIT: Actually, I'm not interested in continuing this conversation as it is clear neither one of us will convince the others (actually I don't even think we are trying to convincing each other). Basically, my point is this: I don't like this style of challenge (grind of any length) and would prefer challenges like Sporca (boss battles).
And this opinion has nothing to do with how hard the challenge it or is not. Because I would still hate this even if I had finished this challenge in 1 day. I just don't like this style (the same way some people prefer FPS vs RPG)

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 5/9/2018 14:20:15 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 270
5/9/2018 18:58:02   
xelessarx
Member

The thing I don't understand is that you are not obliged to complete anything in this release. It is just a nice release you can come back now and then, clearing some more waves, enjoying the random and funny tog names. It is actually a very nice release because it gives the endgame players something they can continuedly have a progress on and the 1000 reward is just a reskin which is not anymore useful than classic Togslayer itself.

It is quite understandable that you might not like this kind of challenge but we already have most challenges as boss battles. So calm down and let there be some stuff different than only boss fight from time to time. It is not that every challenge will be endless arenas, in fact I am pretty sure that is the only one that will be.
Post #: 271
5/9/2018 19:31:10   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

The thing I don't understand is that you are not obliged to complete anything in this release. It is just a nice release you can come back now and then, clearing some more waves, enjoying the random and funny tog names. It is actually a very nice release because it gives the endgame players something they can continuedly have a progress on and the 1000 reward is just a reskin which is not anymore useful than classic Togslayer itself.

This point has been brought up ad nauseum and I am fully aware of it. It does not change my opinion that this type of design is not as engaging, not to mention that regardless of how slow you go, it is the same fight very similar each time. The post above your post is my opinion of this idea.

Regardless, at present we have reached a point where is may be time to either move this discussion to PMs or to a new thread. I doubt any more fruitful discussion will be had as this has essentially moved into an argument about gaming styles and opinions, which is a touchy subject to discuss without descending into flaming/cursing.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 272
5/9/2018 20:37:51   
Eltar
Member

Its not ad nauseam if its true though, you are entitled to have an opinion as we have the right to disagree. The problem comes when somebody tries to impose his/her opinion as a fact.
Post #: 273
5/9/2018 21:25:24   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

Its not ad nauseam if its true though, you are entitled to have an opinion as we have the right to disagree. The problem comes when somebody tries to impose his/her opinion as a fact.

I never said I was imposing opinion as fact though. Arguing for a perspective is not the same as enforcing that perspective on others. I stated that I did not like this style of game design for the reasons in this thread and argued for it. I responded to others and had examples. At no point did I state my opinion was what everyone had to believe.

Also, to make it clear, my complaints are not related to my own situation necessarily. This opinion is not because I can't complete the challenge so I am complaining. I stated this some where up the comment chain, but I would still have these issue even I finished the challenge on the first day somehow.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 5/9/2018 21:28:53 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 274
5/9/2018 21:42:23   
Greyor_42
Member

@Eltar

Being true or not has zero bearing on whether or not something is ad nauseum. Here is the definition of ad nauseum:
quote:

referring to something that has been done or repeated so often that it has become annoying or tiresome.


Literally anything can be said ad nauseum if it's repeated enough times, especially something that's true.
DF  Post #: 275
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