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RE: =DF= Design Notes June 08, 2018: DragonFable's 12 Anniversary Month Part 2!

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6/9/2018 9:36:59   


For the same reason the hero used "they" when referring to their dragon, and why I keep using "they" to refer to both. Because there is no confirmed canon gender for the dragon, and it's done that way on purpose, so that everyone can be right about their own dragon. Dove can't use "he", because then that would mean that everyone who said their dragon was female is wrong about their dragon and story, and he can't use "she", because then the same issue arises for everyone who said their dragon was male. The thing about "they", as I've explained before, on multiple occasions, is that it's not just a plural. It's also used for ambiguous gender. Like the dragon's. And the Hero's.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 6/9/2018 9:38:18 >
DF  Post #: 26
6/9/2018 11:55:34   

What is the problem with it? Which asked in the previous question I do mot know your deal with hom or she?2
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 27
6/9/2018 12:27:34   

Glasses for my dragon and nothing else. The back accessories are odd for me.
Post #: 28
6/9/2018 13:26:39   


Again, for this reason:


there is no confirmed canon gender for the dragon, and it's done that way on purpose, so that everyone can be right about their own dragon.

The instant you add a true canonical gender, the entire premise of creating/customizing both the character and their dragon is rendered completely pointless. Thus, both myself and the writers get around this by never referring to them with a gender, and instead use the neutral/ambiguous "they". The "they" is there purely as a placeholder that you can rewrite in your own mind as whatever gender pronoun you want.

< Message edited by Greyor_42 -- 6/9/2018 13:27:43 >
DF  Post #: 29
6/9/2018 13:45:18   
Dragon Master1229

not to mention they is also used by many as an acceptable pronoun when referring to themselves. they/them can be used in the singular not just the plural. and "it" is derogatory and reducing said identity to something less than people. as if they're a "thing" for not conforming. and like already said they is a lot better in this case than giving a gender or going she/he or whatever else

< Message edited by Dragon Master1229 -- 6/9/2018 13:46:26 >
DF  Post #: 30
6/9/2018 14:18:33   
Ace Woodlink

"Singular they" is also extremely convenient when you can't tell someone's gender, whether via looks (our dragon) or someone's name (many many names in map chat in another game).

Actually, looks-wise, dragons in general in are pretty androgynous in Lore. (Except maybe Aisha, who looks like an old grandma in dragon form.) The ones whose genders we do know, we know because of their human/humanoid forms (Aisha, Elucide, Evren, etc.) or because they've specifically been mentioned as such.

Edit: On the other hand, there's the last few lines of dialogue at the end of Primal Dragon Training that may throw this all out the window.


Elysia: Well done, <Character>! And you too, <Dragon>!
Elysia: <Dragon> is noticeably stronger now. Can you feel his strength emanating from within him?
Elysia: The next time you battle together, you should notice that he has much more power and a new trick or two!

I'm not sure if I'm to treat this as canon, a case of an unreliable narrator, or a confusing anomaly.

< Message edited by Ace Woodlink -- 6/9/2018 14:57:08 >
MQ  Post #: 31
6/9/2018 14:24:21   

Still hoping for Retro DragonLord. C'mon DF Team, hasn't it been enough time without it already?
Post #: 32
6/9/2018 15:03:55   

Just a quick question... Is Bk3 Sunbreeze Grove supposed to be Dragon Amulet only? Because using the Map or Baffet seems to put me in the older version of Bk3 Sunbreeze Grove and the Quest Log button says it's DA only. I know that you need a Dragon Amulet to grow your dragon and to use the new accessories, but I didn't know anything about the remade area not being accessible for Non-DA users.
DF  Post #: 33
6/9/2018 16:43:32   

So the reason them or they is used instead of "it" is an derogative to our dragon.
"Draco must reach his full potential"
This makes our dragon less then human?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 34
6/9/2018 17:21:19   

The Adorable Head Wings for my main dragon and the Flower Crown and Mysterious Hat on my alts, can't wait to see what other options we'll get in the future. Also Book 3 Sunbreeze Grove is really pretty, all these redesigns of old areas are looking really nice.


DF AQW  Post #: 35
6/9/2018 18:07:25   


So the reason them or they is used instead of "it" is an derogative to our dragon.
"Draco must reach his full potential"
This makes our dragon less then human?

....You just merged two completely separate points together into one point that was never brought up, and then misunderstood that non-existent point.

As I said, the reason "they" is used, is because our dragon is not canonically one gender or the other. There is zero canon that says our dragon is male, and zero canon that says our dragon is female. And, again, that was done on purpose, because that way, everyone who says their dragon is male is correct, while everyone who says their dragon is female is also correct. The instant one gender, character customization is a completely pointless thing, as it meas that anybody who didn't say their dragon was the canon gender customized their dragon wrong.

And Dragon Master didn't say using "he" made our dragon less human, he said using "it" as a pronoun did.


and "it" is derogatory and reducing said identity to something less than people. as if they're a "thing" for not conforming.

"it" is not "he". "he" means gender is male. "she" means gender is female. "they" means gender is unknown or ambiguous. "it", on the other hand, means there is no gender, and the thing is question is n't even considered a living creature, but an object. Hence, in the narrative of Dragonfable, "they" is the most appropriate pronoun to be used, until such time as there is an in game option to decide what our dragon's gender is. At that point, the devs would likely add a code to scripts that checks if our dragon was set to male or female, and use the appropriate pronoun, like what probably happens with our character.

@Ace Woodlink

I'd attribute that to an anomaly, as that is literally the only time our dragon is ever referred to by a gender. Every other time our dragon has been referred to in third person via pronoun, it's almost always been a variation of "they", with the sole exception of Titans of Battleon, where "it" was used in a case of early installment weirdness.
DF  Post #: 36
6/9/2018 18:09:59   

Eh, if we can customize whether our PC is male or female, why not have a quick option to do the same for the dragon at the customization screen. It needn't change anything about the appearance options, but it could toggle the dialogue a bit , just like the hero is sometimes s/he in book 1 dialogue. Personally, I have Veritas, who is emphatically a he and always has been from the moment i customized him (he just looks masculine somehow, which is amazing given his coloring). Then Whirlwind, my secondary dragon, is also male, and looks like it. Earthquake has a certain she-ness somehow in the shape and slant of her head and eyes, and Amestris is the same. No two have any features in common, and heads that look good on some turn silly on others, simply because of the color changes.
But whatever the devs want to do is fine by me.

..Veritas looked adorable in his flower crown. Amestris is going to get the helmet as soon as she's primalized, and no accessory will suit Whirlwind.

DF  Post #: 37
6/9/2018 18:42:10   

@Greyor I brought why they can not be replaced with it.The word it or its You explained to me why it can not be he or him or she. Then I asked again why you explain to me the he or she thing and again explained it.
Dragon_master got what I meant by or else there will be non explenation why it is not good.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 38
6/9/2018 21:20:25   

I think what dragon_monster is getting at is that "it" sometimes makes more sense than "they". There are certain places in the game where it doesn't quite make sense to use "they".
For instance in the Calamity finale, the following exchange doesn't sound quite right:
Ash: I don't see the dragon anymore...
Dove: They must've destroyed the amulet.

This is because the subject in this case was "the dragon", so "it" would have made more sense. However in this week's release, the subject of the sentence in question was "[your dragon name]", so using the pronoun "they" is the correct choice.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 39
6/9/2018 22:44:03   

For people without English as their native language, pronouns can be very confusing; after all, singular 'they' is just making up for having no neutral pronoun for living beings, while inanimate pronouns (it) are cited as the neutral.
In some cases, if I recall correctly, genitive forms allow you to distinguish using 'it', but don't quote me on that.

Singular 'they', while the best choice, is incorrect by the formal rules of the language, and when other languages have neutral pronouns it can become confusing.
Additionally, by 20th century convention, animals were 'it', and humans were 'he' as neutral. dragon_monster follows this convention about humans as well, which is perfectly fine in the context of the forum.

English is confusing for everyone, including speakers of it, so it's not really worth arguing over. Ultimately, as long as people understand you, it doesn't matter.

< Message edited by Shiny_Underpants -- 6/9/2018 23:01:47 >
DF MQ  Post #: 40
6/9/2018 22:47:28   


Bad example. The “they” was referring to the team of Artix, Nythera and the Hero, not the Dragon, who set out to destroy the Doom Amulet. Using “they” to collectively refer to a group of people makes all the sense in the world.
DF  Post #: 41
6/10/2018 0:04:06   

So I've been using DM after yet another buff. Takes me 13 turns from 14 to kill mega junkyard driller on extreme + hard mode.

I understand it better now, in terms of using it more offensively. You wanna include somewhere in your rotation where you use acid, fire, charge, and then hope to crit with magefury. And magefury is great because it's 140% magic damage and 0 cooldown which is nice, whereas a lot of the other DM skills are 125% magic damage. Magefury crits are what you want.

I learnt that stacking dragon's tempest is probably not the best thing to do, because when you try to stack it up to full, it takes away turns where you'd want to deal damage, and getting stuck to the point you're trying to keep up stacking dragon's tempest, and then you have turns where you'd put your shield and blind, which eat into the duration of your buffs and debuffs, and losing them means your dragon's tempest starts losing stacks.

It's cool you can play offensively with DM using acid, fire, charge, magefury, and have the option of playing defensively with lightning and ice for the crit and boost debuff.

I also use NTSB so I have a defensive loop with my own blind and shield.
Post #: 42
6/10/2018 8:10:53   

Actually, the place where it would be a bit confusing would be

Caitiff: The Darkness has won. You all have your place in this new world. It is as I promised <Dragon>-

But even here the game acknowledges the fact that your dragon’s gender is your virtually unchosen but realistically chosen (IRL)
DF  Post #: 43
6/10/2018 8:55:11   

I'm still hinging on Dove being Elysia's brother. And I'm back after much AE game neglect! Nice to finally have proper Hex-coded dragon colors. Now the only thing left is Hex-coded colors for our Hero's skin and hair. Heck, even AdventureQuest has that now. Hey Dove and Box kitty! Could you possibly add a preview function so we can see our kid dragon's pet/guest model of what we have equipped? It is sort of shocking that's not already a thing. A bit annoying to have to keep going into a quest to check.

< Message edited by DarkLore -- 6/10/2018 9:15:38 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 44
6/10/2018 9:40:50   

Especially since the closest quest would be Recepie for Disaster and that you cannot teleport from Sunbreeze Grove in the Lore Book...

Wait OMG I just realized Dove’s upcoming quests could be about the Dragon’s Human Form!

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 6/10/2018 9:46:23 >
DF  Post #: 45
6/10/2018 10:00:46   

Speaking of Dove, can we all just take a moment to soak in the fact that he used to be a monk, and then he got excommunicated for punching someone back to life?

Also I'm not sure whether or not to take the "back to life" part literally or not. Was the person actually dead, or just on the verge of death?
DF  Post #: 46
6/10/2018 10:26:16   

Lets say your body is dead your organs are shut down then comes Dove and punch the body bringing everything to life but there is no soul inside that body. Technically it brought the body back to life but with no soul probably the church with not like such an abomination that goes against the natural order of things. I mean what kind of creature that is?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 47
6/10/2018 10:47:20   

^It's canon now.

I can't tell if Dove is telling the truth, or just making up a cover story. We know he was 'born' cursed with... healing punches, but... there are monasteries in DF? Are they monotheistic or pantheistic? Do they worship the Avatars, or look down on abilities like Dove's because they indicate a greater proximity to the 'Avvys' than to their god?

Or were they cultists all along, who misinterpreted Dove and believed him to be a necromancer until that moment?
DF MQ  Post #: 48
6/10/2018 11:11:41   


he very specifically said "punching a man back to life". Not a "body", or a "man's body", but a "man". Which means the person themselves, not just their body, was revived.
DF  Post #: 49
6/10/2018 11:14:02   

Really does he really have to specify? I am asking others because you think it means something.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 50
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