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6/16/2018 13:03:30   
Cataleptic
Member

I always did but it gave the notion that you wanted to do it for the sake of the LGD. Taking away their skill to nerf the bot. I repeatedly asked you to follow through with Satafou and I suggestion but you didn't think it was a good idea.

This could've been averted long ago had we understood each other a little bit more coherently.
Post #: 26
6/16/2018 13:11:26   
NDB
Member

I never disagreed with Satafou's suggestion. I just thought it should still be limited to the top three skills because it would be too powerful if people could choose to take away Field Medic. What do you think about that?
AQW Epic  Post #: 27
6/16/2018 13:39:22   
Cataleptic
Member

I dont think people should choose, and if you want it kept the same then you dont want to change it. You want it pretty much kept as-is.
Post #: 28
6/16/2018 16:58:17   
Mother1
Member

Here is another solution for said issue with the pyro fly. Return the passive skills that were stripped from us. It was when passives became active skills that gave this robot the massive buff that made it so crippling along with the need for Energy being made worse by the cost to cores. Change that back and boom the pyro fly get's nerfed back to what it originally was.
Epic  Post #: 29
6/16/2018 19:48:44   
Cataleptic
Member

quote:

That's probably no going to happen. I wish it were something we could just turn on or off but it's built into the battle engine and even with Titan's help would take ages to do if it could be done at all.


That is what Nightwraith tweeted on Twitter regarding passives.
Post #: 30
6/17/2018 2:41:30   
Mother1
Member

I kind of figured, however that would have been the best solution seeing as I pointed out it was the passive to active change that indirectly buffed the Pyro fly to the point where it could literally destroy builds if it hit the right move instead of just slowing down but still having it possible for the person hit to win.
Epic  Post #: 31
6/17/2018 12:21:32   
Satafou
Member

Nice discussion guys, it's good to see the forums somewhat lively again.

Although as it appears there has been a few misunderstandings, I just want to clarify that I did write that the pyro rework could disable any skill with the "exception of field medic". I did already think that scenario through.

Another thing, yes this rework would make it impossible to beat certain legendary bosses. However balance should take absolute priority over a side achievement that has no statistical value towards anything relating to PVP. Also legendary bosses were designed to be unbeatable in the first place, I know this rework would take away the method previous players have used to defeat these legendary bosses, however pyro bot as it is, is simply not healthy for PVP and it should be reworked in one way or another.
Post #: 32
6/17/2018 12:39:30   
NDB
Member

@Satafou

Gee, how did I miss that part about heal the first time.

I wholeheartedly agree that PvP balance should take priority over NPC fight, but I am pretty sure that the Legendary bosses were meant to be beatable. They were very carefully designed, from a statistical standpoint, to be able to be beaten in a reasonable number of tries with a few ranks, hence why they are called "Legendary" bosses (obviously, assuming you are using the appropriate build, strategy, and skill cores). The necessity of Pyro Fly, I am quite certain, was fully intended. If Pyro Fly is reworked, there definitely also needs to be something done to make them possible to beat again.

< Message edited by NDB -- 6/17/2018 12:40:01 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 33
6/17/2018 14:35:58   
Cataleptic
Member

I don't believe the legendary bosses were carefully designs, since all they do is deal high damage using their primary, and their primary is what really decides who wins, because you would have to shield throughout the match, with pyro just being essential to the build needed to defeat them.

Legendary bosses were the players idea. Players wanted tuffer bosses to face and the developer gave them one. The bosses could've been better by giving them different builds.

Suggestion

Inventory/buddy list

We need to have more space for these two. There isn't enough space to add weapons or people on our accounts. Rarity score and possibly for those that have Twitter is evidence of that. Buddy list should be 200 and 50 as the starting slots. Inventory should be 500 with 100 as the starting slot. It would help players not to sell their items because they don't have space for it.

Flag capture
Contributions should be brought back to capture flags like we use to.
Capturing flag as we use to was a lot better than having to wait for a war to star, with a poorly designed item as the price.

Power day
We should have power day (power hour) on Friday's and Saturday's. Friday is the end of the week and who doesn't enjoy satudays? It should last for the whole day, and it'll help you onwards to lvl'ing up and gaining credits to unlock slots.

Those are minor suggestions that would be helpful to the game and players until there can be a solution for pvp balance and other things.

< Message edited by Cataleptic -- 6/17/2018 14:38:15 >
Post #: 34
6/17/2018 20:12:52   
Mother1
Member


@ Cataleptic

it isn't to be honest the primary that decides but rather the types of damage they do. For example everyone but Dage and titan have only one type of damage during their end game, and because of this you can make a build that works around this and make it so that unless they crit you their primary damage doesn't do anything. However with the titan and dage seeing as they do duo damage this make it that much harder.

Not to mention when the legendary ranks took a nerf (Thanks to players who didn't have them complaining how unfair it was for them to have said power and it needed a nerf) this in turn made these bosses indirectly harder.

With all the legendary bosses I have faced so far I never needed to use pyro fly's ability to win against them. To be honest it is Dage and the Titan that are the only ones you need to use this bot for seeing as there are records of other players not needing the fly to beat said characters.
Epic  Post #: 35
6/17/2018 22:05:10   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


I can confirm legendary bosses were not designed to be fair or careful in any form. When they went through testing it just had to be beatable and strategies for how it was done were not shared.

I think it was confirmed the first legendary boss was only defeated by Mecha, who used an actual strategy, and Titan, who just got lucky and was unable to reproduce his victory
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 36
6/17/2018 23:18:13   
NDB
Member

Hmm.. well, when I said that they were carefully designed, I was just referring to the fact that they are reasonably possible to beat; that the testers would not recklessly slap together a boss that is statistically impossible to beat. Other than that, I am not exactly sure what constitutes fair or balanced for an NPC fight. In any case, as far as I am concerned, it is hardly relevant whether or not they were meant to be beat or not; the fact is, they clearly are, especially before Legendary Ranks were nerfed which is when they were tested. Hundreds of, if not a thousand, players have beaten Legendary Titan using countless builds, strategies, and with different classes. Probably at least a hundred have beaten Dage over the years, before the nerf. And now, I have beaten him after the nerf using two distinctly different builds/strategies in less than ten tries (discluding battles where Pyro missed Bludgeon) for each win. I could have even won three times if the first time I had realized how much his Fire Scythe cost after I got him out of energy. So, bottom line is: people will complain if Pyro Fly is changed in a way that makes Titan and Dage impossible.


@ Mother1
When we say legendary boss, we (at least I am) are just referring to Titan and Dage. I think its pretty well established that all other bosses are beatable without it.
AQW Epic  Post #: 37
6/18/2018 6:53:46   
Cataleptic
Member

quote:

For example everyone but Dage and titan have only one type of damage during their end game, and because of this you can make a build that works around this and make it so that unless they crit you their primary damage doesn't do anything.


Neither of these bosses has one type damage "during their end game" and knowing heir primary does help to formulate a build to beat them. All the LGD bosses are strength, so they will deal high damage. Their skills that don't require their primary to do damage to you, such as, plasma, plasma rain, overlord, isn't that effective, like their primary required ones, like berserker, bludgeon, would be, so you have to worry about their primary.


Bosses that we have now are not the same as one's we had before. Bosses back then required you to use an actual strategy, where you don't just spam stats, but actually use strategic moves. Those type of bosses should be implemented into the game.

Example: Habuki- his skill and strategy differentiates from other npcs because he is able to take away your energy, deal decent damage and make you think outside the box with him. He makes you use strategy instead of shielding or spamming stats so you can get the win. There should be bosses that are durable, casters, support, etc.


Post #: 38
6/18/2018 8:41:08   
NDB
Member

@Cataleptic

You're kidding right? Anyone who has ever come close to beating or has beaten Dage, even Titan, will tell you that it takes quite a bit of strategy and a well planned build to be able to beat them. It is FAR from just spamming stats and heal, then mindlessy spamming shields and heal on repeat. If that's all you do, I can garauntee that you won't be able to win! Most people who try dont realize this, which is why almost everyone loses and no, it is not just about luck. I have given dozens of people my two builds for Dage, my Tech Mage build for Titan, and basically none have been able to win because it's not just about the build but also the strategy.

For example, there are very different and distinct gameplay strategies for when Dage (1) has energy, (2) is out of energy but above 7000 health, and (3) when he is below 7000 health and starts healing which make the battle very interesting in my opinion. This is one of the reasons why I think they are carefully designed; a build and/or strategy that can survive while he has energy might not necessarily work in the other two phases, which makes you have to think hard when desiging your build. If you are that interested, I have plenty of very interesting stategy to share on beating Dage and other bosses; I just don't want to share all the "secrets" on a public forum.

Another reason I think the four legendary bosses were carefully designed is that there are also very distinct builds and stategies for beating each one. If all they really did was slap together a huge hunk of health, energy, and strength then that's not what we'd see. Yes, this does have a lot to do with their energy/physical types but so what? The creators of the bosses didn't just do that by random either. On the contrary, Habuki probably was actually slapped together without very much thinking or testing at all and was made in far less time than any of the legendary bosses. There just wouldn't have been any real incentive since he isn't exactly a boss. It doesn't matter if the legendary bosses were not actually designed carefully by some people's standards (and they only appear that way by coincidence) because, relatively, a lot more thinking must of went ito making them compared to other NPCs.

Yes, it would be extremely interesting if the bosses had more moves like static grenade to increase the potential for new types of boss gameplay. But that doesn't mean the current bosses are horribly designed. They still require the most skill (knowledge of game mechanics, thinking during the battle, keeping track of which of the boss' moves are on cooldown, build preparation, etc.) of any bosses in the game to beat, simply because they are so difficult. Also, stat spamming has always been part of bosses basically since the game was created and certainly by the time Slayer was created.

< Message edited by NDB -- 6/18/2018 9:21:36 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 39
6/18/2018 9:34:39   
Cataleptic
Member

quote:

Another reason I think the four legendary bosses we're carefully designed If all they really did was slap together a huge hunk of health, energy, and strength then that's not what we'd see
.

That is what they did... So you're saying giving them 20-30k hp and mana with immense strength isn't all they did? I don't see the creativity in that, especially since they're supposed to be legendary, different, not cleshay and boring.

quote:

It is FAR from just spamming stats, healing, and mindlessly repeating


There are youtube videos of the bosses being defeated, with by spamming stats and healing to defeat them. Who said anything about mindless repeating? But yes, you repeat some of the same moves to beat them, which is necessary.


quote:

Also, stats spamming has always been part of bosses basically since the game was created and certainly by the time Slayer was created. If all they really did was slap together a huge hunk of health, energy, and strength then that's not what we'd see
.

You've just proved my point.


quote:

On the contrary, Habuki probably was actually slapped together without very much thinking or testing at all and was made in far less time than any of the legendary bosses. There just wouldn't have been any real incentive since he isn't exactly a boss.


You're joking, right? What other npc is there that takes your energy so you can be strategic in using it later? Habuki is a far better npc than most npcs you see in the game. You can defeat slayer at lvl 15 just by spamming dexterity, but you can't with Habuki, even though his lvl is lower. If more bosses were versatile and weren't coalesced together, with arbitrary skills, then they would be a lot more interesting and fun to defeat. Not be viewed as a means to an end.


Also, I didn't say he was a boss, that only he was an example of what we should expect from a boss.

< Message edited by Cataleptic -- 6/18/2018 9:41:46 >
Post #: 40
6/18/2018 9:51:46   
NDB
Member

quote:

That is what they did... So you're saying giving them 20-30k hp and mana with immense strength isn't all they did? I don't see the creativity in that, especially since they're supposed to be legendary, different, not cleshay and boring.

No, that's not only what they did. The legendary bosses are not all the same. Boring, maybe (that's an opinion). I agree with you that we need bosses that are completely different, like ones involving Static Grenade. But I don't like how you keep bashing the current ones without taking a deeper look into it and seeing that there is indeed a great deal of strategy involved in beating them. Spamming stats, heal, and shields is necessary and will be the basis of your moves, but that doesn't mean there is no strategy other than that. I'm sure if they made a new boss with Static Grenade, you would still have to do this.

quote:

You've just proved my point.

No, you said the old bosses were better:
quote:

Bosses that we have now are not the same as one's we had before. Bosses back then required you to use an actual strategy, where you don't just spam stats, but actually use strategic moves.


quote:

You're joking, right? What other npc is there that takes you energy so you can be strategic in compensating to energy?

Just because they gave him Static Grenade doesn't mean that they carefully designed him or even spent any significant time testing him. I still don't think I am wrong when I say that, relatively, the Legendary bosses took a lot more time to design and make than Habuki.

From what I see, we differ in our definition of strategy. You seem to want creativity and variety. I just care that there are clever decisions to be made about the build and moves in order to maximize your chances to win. In my opinion, Titan and Dage accomplish this quite well. If they really are so simple in design and require little "real" strategy, then tell me why so few people can beat Dage?

By the way: This thread has gotten completely off topic from my original post. If we wish to keep discussing boss fights or Pyro Fly, we should create a new thread.

< Message edited by NDB -- 6/18/2018 10:15:39 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 41
6/18/2018 10:37:28   
Cataleptic
Member

quote:

No, that's not only what they did. The legendary bosses are not all the same.


So all the LGD aren't strength, within a range of the same hp and mana?

quote:


No, that's not only what they did.

So you admit they did slap a huge junk of hp and mana and called it legendary because of the distinction between the normal and the legendary ones.

You may see it as an opinion but you can't deny they are boring to fight since there isn't at all any difference between the bosses except for hp and mana, also primary.

I'm not bashing the current bosses. The fact that I took a deeper look at them to see what they are about is the reason why I say this.

quote:

Spamming stats, heal, and shields are necessary and will be the basis of your moves, but that doesn't mean there is no strategy other than that


Spamming stats isn't the bases of your moves. There are builds like focus where you don't need to spam stats and be able to win.

quote:


No, you said the old bosses were better

That's not what I said. I said they were well made. Look at Xendra videos of him killing bosses, he didn't need to spam stats.

quote:

Just because they gave him Static Grenade doesn't mean that they carefully designed him or even spent any significant time testing him. I still don't think I am wrong when I say that, relatively, the Legendary bosses took a lot more time to design and make than Habuki
.

I never claimed, nor said they designed him better because they added a skill other bosses do not have. I said they did well with him or designed because the didn't make him up to be like other NPCs where they are only about attacking with their immense strength.

This discussion would be a lot better if you defended your point by responding to what was said instead of insinuating or making a fallacy notion.
Also, we should stop right here in regards to bosses and other things that are irrelevant. You and I are mainly the ones talking about this and we aren't getting anywhere so we should stop it right here. If you want to make anew thread then go ahead, won't be on it.

< Message edited by Cataleptic -- 6/18/2018 11:11:18 >
Post #: 42
6/27/2018 17:34:52   
RaXZerGamingZ
Member

My suggestion is a new NPC which sells all the war prizes from War 2.0
Each item for 500 varium (unupgraded) so even if you lose the war or dont feel like playing it you can get the item if you like it.

Balance
For balance I still think bringing back passives is the best way to go as the Energy meta is too complicated and is hard to balance out (and passives are more fun in my opinion)
The Pyro Fly bot should only be usable against NPCS not player, its too overpowered to take away a skill and completely ruin someones build with no punishment to yourself
The Assault Bot should have an extra effect ontop of removing debuff like for example adding an extra 100 health and energy to the player you use it on.

< Message edited by RaXZerGamingZ -- 6/27/2018 17:41:02 >
Epic  Post #: 43
6/27/2018 17:52:53   
Born.In.Hell
Member
 

Great suggestions in this topic and we hope see all of them in ed this will be unbelievable now after Nightwraith mention this link in tweet i think 90% ++ From this suggestions can add in near future i'm glad to see this game back again but i hope see low damage like before low hp and energy too wanna to see Fair damage between level 40 with High Rank vs Level 40 with low rank

After Fixed Legendary Rank last time still need more fixed to make us i mean player with high rank feel strong after this hard work to get high ranks ( i'm mean only legit players ) other Botters Kids we hate them they are killed this game all time bot vs NBC'S

If u can make varium Core = Credits too like 1 core =50k Credit

Class Changed 50k is too much and 900 varium too players wasted much Credits to change so 25k- 495 varium will be fine

Why not add Game Voice don't mean chat i'm mean sounds From char when use skills like Silkroad game if u know it

Buy Slots For page or Bank if with Credits like 10 slots = 100k Credits it's too much but after gifts event everyone can get

Now let's talk about money yeah this game need money too to can stand up again add New Items with varium only but not different between Credits Item only have New styles some Cores Help varium Players to look different , back some old items with varium only like swords , armors , aux

that's all even Now i'm love you guys too much

NightWraith If u can read my suggestion can u back Eggzoka With Credit and varium Please i miss this aux

Thank you
Epic  Post #: 44
6/27/2018 17:57:35   
thekingofrage1
Member
 

Please buff bounty hunter at higher levels (in 1v1). It is really terrible (go try it yourself and dont just look at stats).
Post #: 45
6/27/2018 18:07:15   
ofelfel22
Member
 

Honestly, the blood mage energy parasite thing is too weak, its only good on npcs, you barely get any energy from pvp, say someone has 430 and you want to take their energy so they dont use a certain thing, its only gonna take like 70 .-.
Post #: 46
6/27/2018 18:39:18   
Mother1
Member

@RaXZerGamingZ

If passives were brought back in the place of actives and undid all the band-aid fixes that were originally done to fix the problem the passive to active change brought the pyro fly wouldn't need said change. It was the passive to active change and all the band-aid fixes that overpowered his bot in the first place, seeing as just about all the old moves (minus the fixes and one CH move) that the pyro fly targeted were originally immune to the pyro swarm ability.

Epic  Post #: 47
6/27/2018 19:57:18   
RaXZerGamingZ
Member

@Mother1

I know about that but i still believe its overpowered, it fits any build and as i said can destroy an entire build even with passives, lets say you are using a support build in 2v2 and someone uses it on you and disables your artillery, your main move gone and little to do then
Epic  Post #: 48
6/28/2018 3:43:17   
bluetiger
Member

Hey guys, i would like to suggest a new war idea because we are really bored from this cycle its been more then 4 years which we can call it "routine"

If you guys still remember the infernal war in 2012, it was the best war in EpicDuel's history we had so much fun and we got addicted to the game.

If you go to Exile Soldier level 29 in the Fortune City you will see a word "CAUTION" if you try to go there it says "Don't even try it!", well i suggest a new war system there as the Infernal War in the Infernal Mines this will bring a lot of players and at least a new idea to get the players more excited to play, maybe they can do it as the Door in the infernal war we used to hit him until he is down so new shop and new area can be revealed, also we can kill the Exile Soldier on 4 levels ( Legion vs Exile). 1st level 1M health of Exile Soldier, 2nd level of 2.5M health, 3rd level of 5M health, 4th level of 7M health. Im pretty sure this idea/new war will bring a lot of players back and will get the players more excited to play this game, because we are really really bored from this war cycle. Hope you guys can read this and let the admins work on it maybe it can be a good step for EpicDuel.
Epic  Post #: 49
6/28/2018 13:11:50   
Cataleptic
Member

Great discussion and good suggestions guys!

A suggestion I have is to add voice chat in the game! Sometimes players get muted and they can't talk for a certain period of time, so I think having voice chat will help to communicate with your partners a little more.




Also, I was wondering if you could choose your partners in a 2v2 match? I still believe we should keep matches arbitrary, but when you have a specific partner you want to team with in a match I think you should get that partner. One way to keep it like that would be linking them to yourself. Whenever you aren't linked then you can go solo in 2v2 and be palaced with and against someone at random. I believe it'll lower the rage from players by not getting mad for getting players that think they are bad. I'm also well aware of how bad it could be for 2 high ranks to team, so I've given the thought of one, they face high tankers themselves to even out the game, or their rank can't be the same and the difference between the person they want to team should be about 25-30 if their ranks are above, say 40, if not 50 or above? So yeah, I think this would be a great idea and will help perpetuate rage from happening numoerious times to the point where the players feels they need to leave the match because the distain they have for their partner or some other reason. Anyhow, its just a thought, nothing more. Hopefully there will be consideration put into this.




Another thing, since legendary points, like NPC crusher and NPC armor, have no effect in a pvp match, could they not be counted as legendary ranks in a match? It's unfair to the high ranked because they would have to deal with underdog against players who are within the same rage as them that don't need underdog. For instance, rank 60 vs 80, the 60 will have underdog because of LGD likes NPC crusher and NPC armor when those points don't even benefit them in battle. For this reason, I think those points shouldn't be counted in PVP modes, however, if they do count, I believe it should be used as a way to help them, not only by NPC's, but also from players!


Lastly, could the +6 passives be used as permanent passives? It'll help lower rankers have more accessibility to builds like high rankers do, and they will attenuate for legendary points they don't have yet. This would honestly be a good replacement for underdog, also on contrary to what I said about some legendary points being useless in PVP. It'll be attenuating for both sides: Higher rankers won't have to deal with underdog being a burden on them when ranks aren't that different and lower ranks will stand a little more of a chance for higher ranks so they don't feel beating higher rankers are impossible


To make higher ranks not feel that the ranks they have worked for aren't useless, I'm suggesting they be only purchased by varium and nothing else.





< Message edited by Cataleptic -- 6/28/2018 13:42:33 >
Post #: 50
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