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RE: =DF= Design Notes July 06, 2018: Dreamspace: Dominion

 
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7/8/2018 18:19:22   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


I’d just like to note that many of these challenges are only possible for DA users near the level cap to beat. I’m fine with the ‘DA users’ part because we need some incentive to support the game, but the level restriction isn’t great. This is a result of DF’s effective stat system (e.g. MPM, Bonus, BPD, resistance etc) not scaling with levels like HP/MP/the six ‘investable’ stats do, and I don’t really see a way around it. But for this reason I would like the staff to focus on the storyline, if possible, and space out such challenges in the future. It seems like we have had a whole slew of challenges and minimal story for quite a while.

< Message edited by Silver Sky Magician -- 7/8/2018 18:20:28 >
Post #: 101
7/8/2018 22:08:28   
PurgeXZ
Member

Ok, can we please stop using abbreviations for classes? Because I have no idea whatever the hell it is y'all are talking about. Like, what is PDL? Could someone give me a list of abbreviations for each class?

Anyone have any ideas as to how I can kill the druids? I'm a rogue, and I don't have Doomknight, or any DC class. Deathknight worked well at first, but now the lion is untouchable, hits like a truck, and makes damn sure that he'll always hit you.

I once said that Shin Megami Tensei 3 was the Dark Souls of turn-based combat, but I think this award now goes to DragonFable by virtue of the challenges alone. No, scratch that. Dark Souls is actually fair about 95% of the time, these challenges this week are just plain cheap. Even the Nameless King, Ornstein & Smough, and Sulyvahn were more fair than this. Yes, I absolutely love Dark Souls, and my favourite is DS3.

< Message edited by PurgeXZ -- 7/8/2018 22:18:09 >
Post #: 102
7/9/2018 0:44:54   
Kurtz96
Member

PDL is Patience Dragon Lord. It is dragon lord with the dragon's patience artifact.

DmK is DoomKnight

Also these challenges are suppose to be hard and for the max level full power characters. Comparing this to Dark Souls is not good because this is not the main game play. Check out last week for what the main game of DragonFable is like. These are suppose to be frustrating.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 103
7/9/2018 1:43:18   
TFS
Member

quote:

I once said that Shin Megami Tensei 3 was the Dark Souls of turn-based combat, but I think this award now goes to DragonFable by virtue of the challenges alone. No, scratch that. Dark Souls is actually fair about 95% of the time, these challenges this week are just plain cheap. Even the Nameless King, Ornstein & Smough, and Sulyvahn were more fair than this. Yes, I absolutely love Dark Souls, and my favourite is DS3.

As the name might imply, the challenges are endgame content for the most advanced of players. They're there for people who enjoy extremely difficult fights. They're supposed to be, well, a challenge. Calling them cheap or unfair isn't too accurate a complaint as everything you need to beat them is in the game, provided you have a Dragon Amulet.
Try familiarizing yourself with a variety of classes (for this fight I'd recommend Ranger, Cryptic, or Ascendant) so you know what kinds of playstyles are at your disposal. Try using gear that raises stats such as Crit and All resistance. Try training up your alchemy and getting extra potions from the Cloak Scrap or Pale Sea. Try seeing how different stat builds affect your platstyle. Try different stat builds on your dragon and determine how he can best help you. Try using food items such as Seaweed and Zard Kebob to heal or give your stats a boost. Practice against the solo fights penalty-free, so you can become familiar with the bosses' mechanics and map out a strategy. Victory isn't given to you on a silver platter, but if you try you can do it!

< Message edited by TFS -- 7/9/2018 1:51:27 >
DF  Post #: 104
7/9/2018 8:33:45   
Tomix
Soulweaver


This is very well said, TFS!
DF  Post #: 105
7/9/2018 9:11:21   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

@TFS the problem is that even with everything the game has the offer , these Fights are not "The most advanced players needs strategy to win" , These fights now are "The most advanced players needs LUCK to win", I Tried with Every class the Armor Closet has, (Except DC, Calendar Class and Dmk because I and most of players don't have them) , Raising Crit is useless since Skywatcher gives you a good -200 Crit, even in an glacing blow, Trying different stats cost 40500 gold per try , how much time we take to gather this gold for just one try at stats build? As it is now , even with all Light/Dark/All Resistance from things that are in game, you still can't beat it, Skywatcher deals 400-800 damage per turn if you kill dryad first, how much HP we can have 2500-3500 at max?, And if we kill Skywatcher First , Dryad will not only gives you high hits but also decrease your defense and increase her hit and Crit that was already High, and also i will not tell about these two having 200 Stun Resist, now let's mix all of this with Kathool reducing your All resistance to -50 All (with makes your All resistance work useless) and - 50 Hit, and with him making you unable to use your most needed skills, with his cooldown, that everyone complained in Sciuridaehotep, But It has only a chance to use, Kathool no, he will use every 6 turns.

Patiente DL = Failed, Ranger = Failed, Cryptic = I don't have, Ascendant = Failed, all of these with 200 Protection Dragon, 5 potions from Scrap Cloak, Hero's Diet and Zard Kebob

And look about all Strategies here, have you seen a Single one, that not needs Doomknight armor? I haven't, This is not about Challenges that you can with Strategy and Work, are Challenges that are 100% Luck Based or Challenges For Only DoomKnights, If we can't beat it, just think about Non-DA Players (that are most of players) even they knowing everything the game has, they still have no hope in beating these

These challenges are supposed to be hard ? Yes, of Course, But are they not supposed to be.... let's say.... "Possible" ? If DmK is Banned from most of challenges, it means we need to work without relying on it, so why now only DmK can possible win this without DC Itens or Rare itens?

Let's Give Example on Last Challenges to understand ? Ok, let's do it. Super Sentog Needs to Go alone, Groundhog Dave needs to be killed in 15 rounds, Leorilla can't Buff or Debuff, Sir Beaginion needs to be alone even wihout pets, Jack Crescent and Guitar Needs to kill the two at same time, Uthuluc needs to break his armor first, Sciuridaehotep can't be stunned or he will reflect damage, Kathool need to be low at HP, Cauldron Sisters need to use Right weapon Type, Mega Meowphant cant' be blinded or stunned, Sporca needs Accuary, and What about Dryad ? Can you explain? If you Kill one, the other goes Berserk, So we need to kill the two at same time, right? NO, because one hit at one heals the other. So how we can beat those two, Kathool is very very Okay as it is now, These two annoying Dryad Duo are the only problem here.

< Message edited by Shadow X Ascendant -- 7/9/2018 9:34:38 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 106
7/9/2018 9:27:30   
dragon_monster
Member

I did not try the challenge but on more important things does the hero right now trains to beat the actual Kathool? Would we manage to beat the actual Kathool now if we meet him in our Lore?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 107
7/9/2018 9:29:12   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

Now.. That's a good question... but also.. since when we thought the Hero wouldn't be able to beat kathool if we meet him?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 108
7/9/2018 9:55:34   
dragon_monster
Member

Well since we needed help to beat his minion doubt we could have beaten the big boss. But over time we got crazy stronger. I wonder the fight with bosses that require DC and not canon classes means that our hero is on the weak side and will never reach the potential of his counterparts from other universes?


< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 7/9/2018 9:58:36 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 109
7/9/2018 12:52:11   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat


quote:

I’d just like to note that many of these challenges are only possible for DA users near the level cap to beat. I’m fine with the ‘DA users’ part because we need some incentive to support the game, but the level restriction isn’t great. This is a result of DF’s effective stat system (e.g. MPM, Bonus, BPD, resistance etc) not scaling with levels like HP/MP/the six ‘investable’ stats do, and I don’t really see a way around it. But for this reason I would like the staff to focus on the storyline, if possible, and space out such challenges in the future. It seems like we have had a whole slew of challenges and minimal story for quite a while.


Thanks for the feedback!

We have been spacing challenges out a bit. We skipped last month's challenge, in fact. As for concerns about focusing on story, these challenges are basically "Verlyrus weeks" where I do most of the work, Tomix and Dracelix help with some art assets, but mostly, it's time for Tomix to work on major upcoming things. So for example, this week, while I was building the challenge fights, Tomix was working on finishing the Epoch class's animations and art.

Unfortunately, we don't have the resources to do a main story release every other week. I definitely feel your pain though! I want more main story too!

Regarding difficulty, these are certainly intended for level 80+ DA players. The level 80 level cap was there for a really long time- as a result, there is a bit of a power bubble where at level 80, weapons become MUCH more powerful than before. I wanted to create a "endgame" so to speak for DragonFable, so I came up with the idea of these challenges for those players who want something different than say, smashing war waves.

And since I can create the challenges while also giving Tomix the chance to either work on something big or a bit of a chill break, I think they are worth continuing.

quote:

@Verly
Can I ask you about your design and balancing process?
How do you decide what is too much or what is still possible?
Do you think up a gimmick/strategy first, then build the enemy for that? Or do you make a challenge and then afterwards look for a strategy to win?
Does the staff know how to beat each challenge before release?


I want to answer this in the future! Not now though, sorry. :P
AQ MQ  Post #: 110
7/9/2018 13:00:52   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

I want to answer this in the future! Not now though, sorry. :P


Is there a place on the forums to ask behind the scenes question like this? Because I am afraid that asking in the main release threads may derail them.

Also is the giant snake in the Pale sea an Inn challenge level boss?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 111
7/9/2018 15:18:48   
Baron Dante
Member

quote:

As for difficulty, the trio fight is definitely one of the harder fights on the board right now. It's a challenge fight. Malydrys and Argus, and Kathool are "baseline" challenge fights- they should present most players with a good challenge to figure out. The trio? It's unfair. It's not meant to be fair.

That said, harder challenges make room for buffs to the player- better items and skills, etc.

You know, there's something here that kinda bugs me.
Specifically, the way the Inn rewards tend to work for the newer sets. Beating the "baseline" nets you a low level reward. To get the better rewards, you need to beat the... let's say "true" challenge.
Now the problem here is that even the baseline is hard enough where most players at lower levels, where the reward is relevant, most likely can't do it easily. By the time it's reasonable to do those, the reward isn't worth it anymore.

Would it be possible to do something like giving players the possibility to get a high-level version of whatever the drop is, but doing the true challenge gives you a stronger version of it? Like, as it stands, the Inn gear tends to be some of the best in the game, let's call that the "Inn boost". The idea would be that those are locked behind the "true" challenges. The baseline would give you a weaker version, more in line with a regular item of that level. Yeah, it'll be outclassed as soon as you can get the true reward, but at least then, even at high levels, just eating the baseline nets you SOMETHING of possible value.

quote:

Patiente DL = Failed, Ranger = Failed, Cryptic = I don't have, Ascendant = Failed, all of these with 200 Protection Dragon, 5 potions from Scrap Cloak, Hero's Diet and Zard Kebob

The thing is, people have done the challenge with a fair few classes. Is it necessarily 100% consistent? No. But here's the thing: You only ever need to do the fight twice.
So in reality, the strategy consists of two separate parts: The first is to find a strategy that can win. PDL, Ascendant, Evolved Pumpkinlord and Archivist have definitely done it, and others too, but I'm not sure which, so I'm not gonna claim something did it to not spread false info here.
The second part is something I like to all the "luck is a skill" part. While it's true that luck may be a factor, the skill part comes in finding a way to minimize the impact. For example, I did it with Archivist (In addition to v2, since it's faster... or would've been if I wasn't dumb and approached it wrong). It just happens to have a lot of tools that work for this fight.
The increased defenses and nerfs to your hitrates are annoying? Just pop Ash's Glory and never miss with your regular attacks, something the class is built around.
-200 Crit? You can at least get some Crits with Demento's Bane applied.
Obnoxious heals from Skywalker? You deal enough damage thanks to the turn skipping properties.
Massive damage? Oh look attack button has plenty of hits that you'll spam constantly for heals from Bloade of Awe and other such things. Ash's Glory has even more hits.

Now, I realize that most people probably don't have Archivist, but the point I'm making here is that instead of just finding a strategy that COULD work, I looked for a strategy that can mitigate the luck-related aspects. The end result is pretty close to consistent.

quote:

And look about all Strategies here, have you seen a Single one, that not needs Doomknight armor? I haven't, This is not about Challenges that you can with Strategy and Work, are Challenges that are 100% Luck Based or Challenges For Only DoomKnights, If we can't beat it, just think about Non-DA Players (that are most of players) even they knowing everything the game has, they still have no hope in beating these

There's a few things to note here. I'm pretty sure every challenge so far has been done without rares (iirc Verly stated at some point that seasonals are fine, the fights aren't going anywhere). You're also assuming that non-DA players need to be able to beat them. Which, I've seen some seriously impressive non-DA payers that have managed most challenges, usually only tripped up by the "true" challenges. In a way, it makes it DA-only content without strictly being that, giving them a chance to do it if they somehow manage.

quote:

Now.. That's a good question... but also.. since when we thought the Hero wouldn't be able to beat kathool if we meet him?

It's worth noting that this isn't Kathool but a simulacrum.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 112
7/9/2018 15:42:11   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

Yeah, But Archivist is one of the calendar class, and like i said, i don't have it
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 113
7/9/2018 16:02:01   
dragon_monster
Member

quote:

It's worth noting that this isn't Kathool but a simulacrum.


So its an simulacrum made by beings that can manipulate time and space why would it be weaker then the real thing?
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 114
7/9/2018 19:01:10   
Greyor_42
Member

Because the Inn is supposed to be training us to become stronger so that we don't die, and not supposed to kill us? Are you forgetting that Kathool is legitimately one of the most, if not the most, powerful being in DF? Like, to the point where the hero and their dragon together don't really compare to even a sleeping Kathool?
DF  Post #: 115
7/9/2018 19:03:45   
Baron Dante
Member

quote:

Yeah, But Archivist is one of the calendar class, and like i said, i don't have it

And as I said, that wasn't the point. I used Archivist because I concluded it had the best tool set to do it consistently. Other classes can do it, it's just up to you (Or someone else, I guess) to find what is the best option beyond that, and make a more consistent strategy. Or, y'know, keep throwing your face at it until it breaks anyways.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 116
7/9/2018 21:33:17   
Greyor_42
Member

quote:

Or, y'know, keep throwing your face at it until it breaks anyways.


Ah yes, the patented Baron Dante Strategy For Everything(TM)
DF  Post #: 117
7/9/2018 21:57:39   
Theis4321
Member

I'm currently trying to beat the Archdryad fight with Ranger. Killed the Dryad fairly easily, only having to use one of the food items, but then got destroyed by Skywalker. I thought Ranger's crit boost would counter Skywalker's crit debuff after Dryad died, but I can't keep the boost up without putting up a shield, since the shield resets the boost. And unless I had put up the shield, I would be taking way too much damage.

Gonna try killing Skywalker first, then the Dryad.
Post #: 118
7/9/2018 22:40:10   
Greyor_42
Member

Ranger focus boosts Crit damage, not Crit rate, which is what skywatcher debuffs.
DF  Post #: 119
7/9/2018 22:56:06   
dragon_monster
Member

quote:

Because the Inn is supposed to be training us to become stronger so that we don't die, and not supposed to kill us? Are you forgetting that Kathool is legitimately one of the most, if not the most, powerful being in DF? Like, to the point where the hero and their dragon together don't really compare to even a sleeping Kathool?

Well first so are the hero and his dragon one of the strongest beings in DF. Sure his mind controlling is second to none yet ineffective and weak to an 10 year old elf girl who had contact with the water orb. The thing is the hero and more important the dragon beat him with help from Aquela when he was awake and Kathool was empowered the water orb and some staff. I am pretty sure this dude is not the strongest.
Now since we are not supposed to die does it not occur that when we lose an challenge the heroes are teleport from there before they get killed. Would that actually affect our training the simulacrums do not hold back the heroes just have an fail safe so they do not die. So its good training right?


< Message edited by dragon_monster -- 7/9/2018 22:57:21 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 120
7/10/2018 8:59:02   
whenua
Member

Alright, I don't know if people tried this before, but I have a question - will the Kathool Adept Armor affect the Simulated Kathool in any way?

I'm asking because I know you get a "special" effect from the Uthuluc monster where his gibberish is translated.
AQ  Post #: 121
7/10/2018 10:00:46   
Greyor_42
Member

Aside from being able to attack Kathool with Kathool, nope.
DF  Post #: 122
7/11/2018 10:19:46   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

The only option i see here is if you kill the Dryad first and in skywatcher you K.O with EPL Scythe in the exactly next round. But since it costs 1000 Gold for a 1% chance of victory for an upgrade of a Ring/Necklace, it isn't worth anyway, We already got them in primordials, until TimeTorn Matrix we haven't got a any weapon, neither an Trinket. If we are going with fights that we have only 1% chance to win we deserve something better, no? Even at Yllmar, we can get Elite Sunken Rose weapons
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 123
7/11/2018 16:50:06   
Greyor_42
Member

I mean, the level 90 necklace and ring are Best in Slot alongside the Primordials stuff.
DF  Post #: 124
7/13/2018 10:37:01   
EdyMaster
Member

I beat using Crypitic on my second attempt https://i.imgur.com/NMDQlKW.png
I used a build focused on B / P / D (I only got 78), played defensively and attacked Archdryad first because most of his buffs only activate if hit successfully and also because the Argus Skywatcher does not increase his bonus. The fight was extremely easy until the Simulacrum ruined the rotation and I ended up with no defensive skills because of the extra cooldown. Still it went well until I infuriated Argus and worse still when I was again without skills. At that point I was forced to use the Zard Burger to compensate for the lack of defensive skills. The rest of the fight was only managing the HP while fighting Simulacrum (I have not started with 5 potions but perhaps used more than that because of the potion stealing).

Another time I'll try again, but for the time being I'd be wondering what they think of the accessories. What better than the two compared to the other "Best in slot" items? Which one should I get first?

< Message edited by EdyMaster -- 7/13/2018 11:30:11 >
DF  Post #: 125
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