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RE: September 28th Design Notes: Rebuilding and Epochs

 
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9/30/2018 7:11:14   
Ace Woodlink
Member

Seriously considering getting the calendar now for the artifact. This class is way more fun that I could've imagined against bosses, and doubtless will be even more so with the trinket giving me almost no downtime on the Haste buff.

Non-boss fights are a different story.

Starting with zero momentum is debilitating, especially against multiple enemies. Against bosses, this doesn't matter, because you have the turns to gain back whatever health you lose in the first few turns. Starting at a disadvantage doesn't matter in long fights because you quickly gain the advantage. But short fights don't give you that time.

Therefore, I propose starting fights at three momentum instead of zero. That's enough to get off a Gunburst on one enemy, Runeblast the other, and figure out what to do with the third. Or start up a 3 turn Timeshift, maybe fire off a multi, decide what you want to do from there. Or stun them with Punch's full force instead of being stuck with only a single turn stun because you didn't have any momentum behind it.

Starting at three momentum gives you options on what to do. Starting with zero makes you a sitting duck.
MQ  Post #: 76
9/30/2018 11:03:59   
Flamerider345
Member

@chazero, thanks for the info. it helped alot since ive been using mi runestone during timeshift at times.
oh so it was like tat. Well dove deserves all the break he can get.

And is it just me or does the pierce skill lag on the last 3-4 hits?

Also rather than a 1 turn perfect shield wouldnt a 3-4 turn shield be better. Im sayin tat it mite be better to hav a separate shield skill rather than have it on the boost skill. It takes time to set up the shield (2 turns) and ive found tat its not enough to dodge boss attacks consistently so naturally i would hav to use ultra which would then prevent me from buffing aim nd heal. against bosses like unraveller nd emperor (not ex) i took a lot of damage by the time i could set up a good defence (nd in a boss fight u would want to start with a good defence.....well tats mi play style anyway), and the heal afterward wasnt enough to recover from it (though in general the heal is very good).

If it cant be separate then at least it should be first in the order so we can start off with some protection especially since most of the strategies we use for bosses (like those at the inn) involve first turn shields.
DF  Post #: 77
9/30/2018 12:57:11   
Greyor_42
Member

quote:

Trinkets disrupt the double turn cycle resulting in one of your double turns becoming just a regular single turn after using a trinket


Actually, it just gets pushed back one turn, so that you always get the full amount of double turns from Timeshift.



@Ace Woodlink

quote:

I propose starting fights at three momentum instead of zero.


You never know, that might end up being an effect from a future trinket.
DF  Post #: 78
9/30/2018 13:08:04   
Silver
Member

quote:

Therefore, I propose starting fights at three momentum instead of zero. That's enough to get off a Gunburst on one enemy, Runeblast the other, and figure out what to do with the third. Or start up a 3 turn Timeshift, maybe fire off a multi, decide what you want to do from there. Or stun them with Punch's full force instead of being stuck with only a single turn stun because you didn't have any momentum behind it.

okay sure, but at least it's better than archivist's carried-over cooldowns lol

I think epoch's pretty cool. Now I don't know who sat down one day and thought to themselves "I want to see the hero running around with a dagger while wearing lingerie and boxers" but that person's right. Dove if that was you ily. Oh, and this released around the end of september too. Sexiest mogloween costume 10/10 http://prntscr.com/l0ia0x
(no but seriously though, the class looks funny but I like it)
While it's a really good stall armor, it hasn't helped me beat any boss that I haven't already been able to beat with other classes as (or more) easily. How good is epoch against extreme unraveler and sea chicken?
Post #: 79
9/30/2018 13:09:59   
Lujikul
Member

If we're talking about potential trinket effects, I hope that they'll all provide different aesthetics. Like how the current trinket is what we've been seeing with epoch, (the glowy rainbow/white armor) maybe some will be like red and white or maybe varying shades of blue. This is especially my hope for when Epoch actually releases and people starting saving it as their defaults so further down the line you could identify which kind you're up against in pvp.
Post #: 80
9/30/2018 13:14:34   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

Trinket or Bracer?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 81
9/30/2018 15:24:49   
ergotth
AQW Lore-titician


maybe next year it's a trinket that gives the class a DOOM motiff xD Would be interesting nevertheless.

By the way guys, lets not forget the most important thing:
Now that Epoch is done, Tomix can work on CHAOSWEAVER AND FLESHWEAVER!!! *throws confetti and pops champagne*
.
.
.
.
.
meanwhile, Aegis is looking for a place to hide.

< Message edited by ergotth -- 9/30/2018 15:27:16 >
DF AQW  Post #: 82
9/30/2018 16:08:05   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

Nothing can hide from wy Watchful Shadows.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 83
9/30/2018 19:15:12   
Divine Nexus
Member

I hadn't got around to doing some of the latest Inn challenges, so I decided to test Epoch against them. I went in blind for all three of these fights.

It took me two tries to defeat the Sea Chicken Emperor, I likely could have succeeded the first time if I had remembered to bring my dragon with me. Got him the second time.

I took down the Unraveler the first try. I had someone refer to it as the most difficult of the Inn challenges, but they may have been referring to the Extreme fight, or I got really lucky.

I've only fought Sinnocence, the Undying once. I kept expecting a moment where it would stop recovering, but since it never came, he eventually wore me down. And I got so close when I triggered NSoD's special. But I can't bring myself to try again, it was such a slog.

My loss to Sinnocence aside, this class is pretty powerful. Especially with the artifact, you can basically keep Timeshift going indefinitely. However, it's not especially useful against regular enemies since it starts with no momentum, making it far more useful for bosses.

A question though. During Timeshift, if you use a potion first you don't get to use the second part of your turn, so you have to use it second. This isn't much a problem for a health potion, but if you needed some mana to use a skill, you can't use that skill that turn because using a potion first counts as the whole turn. Is this intentional?
DF AQW  Post #: 84
9/30/2018 19:29:06   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

^ Or In That Case you can use Attack Button That Restores an Portion of Your mana, before using potion
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 85
9/30/2018 20:09:27   
Greyor_42
Member

quote:

A question though. During Timeshift, if you use a potion first you don't get to use the second part of your turn, so you have to use it second. This isn't much a problem for a health potion, but if you needed some mana to use a skill, you can't use that skill that turn because using a potion first counts as the whole turn. Is this intentional?


Trinkets and potions push the double turns back by one.
DF  Post #: 86
9/30/2018 20:21:46   
Divine Nexus
Member

@Shadow, it's still the same the same issue, seeing as the most it seems to restore is 16 mana, which isn't enough for any skill.

@Greyor, I see. If that's the way it is, that's the way it is. It's a very situational and minor issue, I suppose.

I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, but the Pierce skill produces an ungodly amount of lag when the blades explode. Even when the game is running completely smoothly otherwise, when this attack happens it's like watching it frame by frame. It goes back to normal right after, however. Is this happening to anyone else?
DF AQW  Post #: 87
9/30/2018 20:21:54   
blowthemandown
Member
 

Having finally gotten around to it, I'm going to have to say that Epoch, while powerful and fun, is ugly. Not REALLY ugly, a lot of its attack animations are flashy and cool, but swinging a hammer around in it made me realize how many of those animations are just stabs. And the armor itself is just dorky. I look like Titus from FFX.
DF  Post #: 88
9/30/2018 21:03:32   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

but swinging a hammer around in it made me realize how many of those animations are just stabs. And the armor itself is just dorky.


DF, like most RPG games is biased towards stabbing motions. Maybe cause cutting weapons like swords, axes and daggers are more ubiquitous than crushing weapons like maces or hammers historically.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 9/30/2018 21:14:04 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 89
9/30/2018 21:11:21   
Shadow X Ascendant
Member

Well, Today We Are Like Mogloween, well, Next Week Will be our Next Inn Challenge and Maybe The Return of Mogloween events, i will have many work to do like, Getting Soul Carved IV, Gnarly Guitar of Doom IV, Fierceless Baron Mask....
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 90
9/30/2018 21:13:56   
Kurtz96
Member

Since all the calendar classes are tier 3, shouldn't they be the same power roughly? This is the same problem that all updating tier lists run into. As more stuff is added, the gap inside tiers gets bigger so to accurately reflect the ranking, the tier list has to get progressively more granular.

Like the Smash tier list has A, A+, A- etc. And even there, some character in A+ is better than another character also in A+ but is not good enough to get into S tier. So do you make a A++ tier?

So for DF: DmK is tier 4, so do we say Epoch, BSW are tier 3+? 3.5? Since they are better than the other tier 3 classes?

EDIT: Do we still agree that DmK V1 and V2 are stronger than Epoch?

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 9/30/2018 21:17:53 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 91
9/30/2018 21:46:15   
TFS
Member

The tiers are a very poor indication of a class's power; they're better used for measuring how difficult it is to obtain a class. Look no further than classes like Ranger and Soulweaver that belong to Tier 2 but are far stronger than the majority of Tier 3 (or classes like Chronocorruptor that belong to Tier 3 but are weaker than the majority of Tier 2).
Doomknight is of course stronger than Epoch, as it exists solely to be the best class in the game. As far as boss fights go, Epoch and BSW fall into the "not as strong as Doomknight but better than everything else in the game" cabal, alongside SWoT, Ascendant, Cryptic, EPL, and Ranger.
DF  Post #: 92
9/30/2018 21:49:28   
Zeldax
Member

If you're going by Ash's tier list, a class' tier isn't fully determined by its power, just by how you get it.

quote:

Tier 3
These are some of the stronger armors in the game. They are either DC armors, armors that require you to train one or more armors of a lower tier, or are Special Offer armors.

quote:

Tier 2
These are the average armors of the game. They are either linked to a story line, a holiday event, or are just above the base classes power wise.


Most people don't really use Ash' tier list as a basis for a class' power anymore.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 93
9/30/2018 22:33:24   
Kurtz96
Member

Never mind, my post was off topic. Back to Epoch testing.

Is double turns the most broken thing in DF (beside life carve version 1)? It is so strong. But should you buff, buff, buff, buff, ultra then timeshift or timeshift first then buff? One way you spend the entire double turn time dealing damage, the other way you get the buffs faster and spend less turns doing no damage.

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 9/30/2018 22:56:47 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 94
10/1/2018 2:29:15   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member

Actually Epoch can be maazing for Sinnocence: when he heals, his ALL Reduces. At a certain point (-140 or 160) you can save up to 6 or 9 momentums and use laser slice and punch for a -45 ALL into a 5 turn stun (technically 4 which is easily still better than SWoT) and then bombard him with Combos, Guns and DoTs which do a lot btw until he dies off. I don’t think Pierce would be useful here, however, as he heals back to full HP anyway so the heal must be a 100% or something. In any case you give him a -20 All each heal and by the time he reaches a stunnable point, you’d already have given him a “-HOLY THAT’S A LOT” All resist so he would heal phenomenally despite your efforts. Pierce is such an eye candy skill though

Also I’d like to mention how combo’s an amazing upgrade to DW’s Double/Triple/Sextuple move by compressing all in one, this giving rise to more skill slots. Love this class.




Also, no, Shift’s extra turn stuff’s not broken in the powerhouse sense. The class doesn’t have a reliable (as in, on usage of move) shield (for more than a turn) or a HoT effect, so this is the class’s way of getting to that point. Building up to that without dying requires knowing your opponent—you should know if Boost or Hex is required and when to use Ultra which is based on the bosses, and when you do get to 9/12 momentum, you should know how to judiciously ise the class to stay alive and kick ass at the same time. The CDs on the class were made extraordinarily large (being at 11 for Boost and 14-19 for Hex) for this specific reason (so in 6 turns of extra turns and up to 7 to 10 turns of extra turns will you be able to use Boost/Hex or Ultras respectively), or else you’d have a better heal than PDL does. It teaches you how to use pets (and in some cases guests) to their best potential (except Baby Dragon, everyone knew how to use that). I actually grew to understand why the regular Boosts/Hexes were made so weak (except defense).

Also, this thing helped me beat up the Unraveler with comparative ease and way less luck than SW or even DmK. It’s a beast. (Though, I still had to try a bunch to get the rotations right.

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 10/1/2018 2:39:42 >
DF  Post #: 95
10/1/2018 4:28:38   
Lujikul
Member

An observation I've made that I haven't seen anyone remark on yet is how Epoch is one of the only left handed classes in the game, with the only other that i currently remember right now being Technomancer. And an argument can be made that Technomancer is still a right handed class, considering how much it uses that robot hand.
Post #: 96
10/1/2018 4:48:23   
Zeldax
Member

By left handed, I assume you mean classes that hold the weapon in the back hand. If so, there's Archivist, Ranger, Ascended ChickenCow, and soon ChaosWeaver.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 97
10/1/2018 4:48:38   
Silver
Member

quote:

Like the Smash tier list has A, A+, A- etc. And even there, some character in A+ is better than another character also in A+ but is not good enough to get into S tier. So do you make a A++ tier?

an armor tier system like smash's would be really cool for DF, but there'd have to be different tier lists for armors good against bosses and armors good for questing/farming. Like how archivist's good against bosses but I'd go bald by the time I finish a normal quest with it :P

quote:

Actually Epoch can be maazing for Sinnocence: when he heals, his ALL Reduces. At a certain point (-140 or 160) you can save up to 6 or 9 momentums and use laser slice and punch for a -45 ALL into a 5 turn stun (technically 4 which is easily still better than SWoT)

The last time I checked the stun skill didn't stun at all. Was that fixed o.O
Post #: 98
10/1/2018 5:28:04   
BluuHorseOfficial
Member

Yeah, it does it for 5 turns at 3 moms stacked now. Was it ever bugged?

Plus, Exemperor of Sea Chickens was a breeze for me with te Eternal Locket Epoch. It’s literally the easiest class to use to win that. I DID have hardships during the start and near the end of the battle, but the midway sections of most battles is the easiest and best.

If I could suggest a change, it’d be that Fade should have the same effect on extra turns as Potions and Trinket Skills do. It’s not fair how you can just Fade -> Slice an opponent, but it’s the devs’ call.

The class is definitely one of the strongest classes there is, but it has its limitations, too, which is good. I hope it won’t be nerfed again since it’s around BSW level now anyway.

< Message edited by BluuHorseOfficial -- 10/1/2018 6:04:05 >
DF  Post #: 99
10/1/2018 6:03:52   
Sakurai the Cursed
Member

It had 1 turn lower stun than intended at the very start, so if used at 0 Momentum it did a 0-turn stun, i.e. nothing. It would still stun if used with Momentum though, just for 1 turn less than the design notes said.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 100
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