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RE: Werepyre Update Part III: Werepyre Finale!

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11/4/2018 18:09:31   

@Relinfearous This problem wasn't addressed at all in the vamps/weres... Rather, the base forms of vamps/weres came out bugged and were always at FO lean instead of the intended N lean.
AQ  Post #: 51
11/4/2018 19:39:34   

No, they were originally N. Since Beast Form kept reverting they changed Vamp/Were to FO as a bandaid solution.
AQ  Post #: 52
11/4/2018 20:46:12   

Well, at least the encyclopedia entry says it's a bug. I guess I'd be fine with it for Werepyre as a temporary solution. Or, as I mentioned earlier, reverting to the base form at the end of a battle.
AQ  Post #: 53
11/5/2018 9:22:08   

Will the werepyre race be changed? I mean, it is actually weaker than vamp or were races. I think it should give the possibility for toogle 50 int and 50 str plus a 50 increase in cha or luck. Few people use hybrid and really is a waste of potential for this subrace who should be able to choose between stats. After all, it should be more powerfull than both races (both abilities, no weakness).

< Message edited by Semceck -- 11/5/2018 9:25:41 >
Post #: 54
11/5/2018 9:34:32   

@Semceck Uhn... Let's see... I need to split my reply I guess...

1) It mostly likely won't be changed. (save for bug fixes)
2) It's not supposed to be stronger than the other subraces.
3) It's not particularly weaker than Were or Vamp, they cover different niches.
4) If they try to take the best of both Weres and Vamps, then they obviously will need to lose on something, either having less interesting abilities due to lack of slots (compressing 20 slots in 10) or they'll have weaker abilities to compensate the compression of 2 different skills in a single skill. (+50 str and +50 int into +35 STR/INT)

So... I don't agree with most of what you said I guess~
AQ  Post #: 55
11/5/2018 10:13:19   

Pretty darn cool subrace overall, lots of nifty resource management and sustain abilities paired with stun immunity sure makes werepyre have a hell of a potential as a warring monster, as well as a beast that bypasses most of the anti-meta effects of recent challenge bosses. Great work!

EDIT: ^These are first impressions based on how they play out in-game though, and some of them might've been skewed by bugs. And I was initially assuming it would be equally accessible to non-hybrid builds as well.

Some info subs on how the skill works would be nice to have soon though. Especially on that lvl 0 skill of using hybrid stat bonuses, and whether it's really compulsory for the lvl 10 skill as well.

Based on in-game description I thought it was merely always using STR for STR/INT/Mainstat and INT to substitute DEX, but based on some shared screenshots it seems to function not exactly that way. And apparently I've been hearing rumors of the toggle affecting spells cast in the armor as well.

< Message edited by poopbum -- 11/7/2018 19:17:30 >
AQ  Post #: 56
11/5/2018 12:49:49   
Primate Murder

Any news on the challenge battle?
AQ  Post #: 57
11/5/2018 13:36:22   

OK. Then the beast attacks should use str or int? Also, why not use the dex stat at all in beast mode combined with str or int?
Post #: 58
11/5/2018 18:47:45   

@Above It's not using DEX because there is no point in making it use Hybrid stats if you still need DEX to run the armor... >.>

And btw, info subs are out! The armor is lovely!!! \(^^)/
AQ  Post #: 59
11/5/2018 23:35:53   

Mmm... Dracopyre subrace next?
AQ  Post #: 60
11/6/2018 0:56:02   
Primate Murder

The info subs are out and it seems we have a new and fairly powerful earth nuke with 1.5x elecomp in lvl 9 skill!

Terror, alas, remains fairly unimpressive.

Also, we finally have a confirmation that the lvl 10 form uses hybrid stats for spells - are we seeing the dawn of the 0-dex spellcaster?!
AQ  Post #: 61
11/6/2018 1:39:49   

^Yeah, the damage on Dual Bite is bonkers- and also, Terror can stack, and can completely nullify the monster's damage after a certain point.
AQ Epic  Post #: 62
11/6/2018 2:15:18   
Primate Murder

Terror seems really UP even compared to other sources of Panic infliction, such as Jaania's Orb or Seeing Red.
AQ  Post #: 63
11/6/2018 4:02:50   

I have to agree with Primate on Terror. After looking at the subs I feel like a -20 save might've be more befitting, given its current potency per infliction. Being limit to only 1 cast per turn unlike vampire and lycan is another thing I'm a little iffy about.

With that being said, I tested the subrace vs wind essence and I must admit that Terror's panic carried that fight for me. But having 50 END helped quite a lot too...... and if I were a vampire I could easily keep the dragon locked down further for more overall damage reduction....

Though versus stun immune bosses panic is definitely a way more relevant status, but atm it kinda needs to be paired with seeing red combo to truly shine.

Werepyre's other defensive abilities seems better than its peers though. Lunar Vigor so far has been able to heal pretty impressive amounts for me, getting about 900-1k+ HP most of the time even with just dual poes + the predator STR/INT stat boost toggle. Granted it scaling of hybrid stats really helped. And the passive 5% healing is just a nice free bonus, not much(due to being unmodified by elemods) but also more relevant than the passive regeneration abilities lycan and vamp has.

EDIT: Vampire's healing from their lvl 10 is easily a lot higher as a drain heal though, and to top it off is a strong healing ability that you can use in the middle of nuking unlike lunar vigor.

Also Vampire's mist form scales purely off INT which is as good as hybrid stats, if not better. So the only reason why it's behind is cause it loses healing power to get blocking boost. They are equal in the grand scheme of things.

The subrace indeed requires a dedicated stat build to use effectively, though I gotta say all those untraining and retraining has been worth it so far.

EDIT: Looks like part of what makes it "feel worth it" was confirmed to be a bug. Well I think I'm not sure anymore.

It does restrict your options and make you more reliant on the werepyre armor however, unlike lycan and vampire which allows you to still use various other armors and forms of attacks normally.

At the moment the "new toy syndrome" is still fresh so I might just stick with it, but I still wish the Panic skill can at least be cast twice a turn like the other subraces.

< Message edited by poopbum -- 11/7/2018 19:14:44 >


AQ  Post #: 64
11/6/2018 9:23:51   

Does the Terror misc work with Panic? I somewhat remember that it boosts fear & related effects but I'm not sure if that includes Panic. It would be really helpful if it does.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 65
11/6/2018 19:04:03   

@Above Only on Fear sadly, you can check it on the pedia entry of the item~

@J9408 Your link is broken, you need to click on the post number (on the bottom right of each post) to get the direct link to the subs you want! >.<

That said, there is already a pedia entry for this misc.

< Message edited by AliceShiki -- 11/6/2018 21:48:31 >
AQ  Post #: 66
11/6/2018 20:30:44   

^I did not know the pedia for it was updated. Thanks for telling me. I'll delete my post.

< Message edited by J9408 -- 11/6/2018 21:00:00 >
Post #: 67
11/6/2018 21:49:23   

@Above All posts on the subs that are in quote tags and have that "Got this, thanks" notice below them already have pedia entries! ^^)/
AQ  Post #: 68
11/7/2018 18:57:09   

Now that I think about it, one part of me wishes the "hybrid stats" aspect of werepyre was entirely optional in the lvl 0 toggle. Instead of it being forced in werepyre's every other skill including the lvl 10 transformation. I suppose the hybrid stats being forced could be justified in the "lunar vigor" skill, since lycans themselves have a similar heal skill that uses END instead.

Or rather than wishing it's optional, it's more of a wish for the hybrid stat forcing to be more justified. After all I think it's cool that hybrids are for once getting their own exclusive toy, so hopefully it stays that way.(but maybe with a little extra oomph to show for it)

The hybrid stats aspect is pretty cool in that it enables players to swap out DEX for two mainstats like a hybrid(while at the same time making DEX redundant in it), but making it compulsory outside of the toggle seems like a restrictive redundancy.

To play werepyre you would have to put all your eggs in the werepyre basket, due to even the non-heal skills having in-built hybrid stats being forced upon despite the armor already having an optional toggle to do it already.

You are essentially losing out on stats compared to a pure build without really getting anything in return, other than turning into what is essentially a poelala mage that trades DEX for STR.

So you're basically losing out on DEX's blocking just to gain the same level of player offensive stat bonuses as a pure/dogwalker mage and warriors, not counting premium things like token stat boosting packages which those builds can also abuse anyway.

Okay so maybe you have stronger normal attacks on par with a warrior, but in practice players have enough sustain to spam skill level attacks until most fights end so that is hardly a real advantage anymore.

Since skills and spell level attacks deal essentially the same damage per MP/SP cost spent regardless of whether they are melee or magic. You are just a warrior with mana. Meanwhile normal warriors themselves can just easily use SP in place of mana to end most fights quick with skills, and SP recovery options nowadays makes sustaining of such skills a trivial matter.

I must concede that werepyre's lvl 10 does deal more damage, but that's because they are paying extra MP for it so it's more of a design thing. From a design aspect werepyre kinda has less "filler skills" too, though vampires and lycans make up for it with having a better quickcast disable skill(but terror vs mes/snarl is another matter).

Of course players can still choose to retain a certain level of DEX if they wish to keep their armor options open, but you are still paying the opportunity cost of 200 stat points to merely match up to other builds in terms of raw player attack only.(only just equal in werepyre, but slightly behind outside of it except you still have less stat points and less combat flexibility)
Now maybe if the hybrid stats's scaling in the armor skills could be amped up proportional to the assumed loss in blocking + pet/guest bth from DEX(even with efficiency penalties thrown in), then the compulsory hybrid stats might be actually justified then.

Or maybe the lvl 0 toggle could just be tweaked to also use hybrid stats for pet/guest bth, but only for the DEX aspect of it without replacing any CHA requirements at all.
So that this way, the opportunity cost of shifting stats to make use of werepyre's skills would be limited only to losing out on DEX's defensive aspect.(I know most players nowadays don't care about blocking, but from a balance perspective it still shouldn't be considered completely irrelevant)

I understand that a lot of effort has been put into this subrace and I enjoyed it. But I have to admit that part of it comes from novelty factor.

Still it's a nice attempt to encourage a different style of play, and bridge the gap between hybrids and pure builds. Since patch 39, DEX has been a mandatory stat that's hard to break out of, due to penalizing DEXless builds too much. This partially addresses that problem, though a little more juice if possible would be nice.

I greatly appreciate all the hard work you guys put into this, and thank you for keeping this game alive for 16 years!

< Message edited by poopbum -- 11/7/2018 19:26:20 >
AQ  Post #: 69
11/8/2018 10:35:04   

Is the challenge fight out? If it is, where?
Post #: 70
11/8/2018 11:23:02   
Dreiko Shadrack

It isn't.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 71
11/8/2018 21:08:22   

Mail Moogle of AdventureQuest

Not yet.

I am sad that the build is hybrid, however ever grateful that werepyre once again, is a force to be recokend with.

I guess that means I need to get back to writing instead of lurking.

*scurries away*
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 72
11/9/2018 1:17:04   

Though I love Werepyre I definitely echo PB's sentiments. Another issue I have, is that when using Deadly Predator with hybrid stats, the total stat bonus you receive is lower than that of a pure build using Lycan or Vamp with their mainstat toggle. This is because you only receive 35 to both, rather than 50 to one, and your bonuses from STR and INT are halved.
235/16 + 235/16 = 29.37500
250/8 = 31.25
Instead, I'd like to see Deadly Predator give 50 to both, but at a higher cost, to put it on par with the others.
AQ  Post #: 73
11/10/2018 17:21:48   

I'll wait for Dracopyre with bated breath.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 74
11/10/2018 18:18:50   

Unlike werewolves, vampires and werepyres currently do not have convenient shop pets, do they?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 75
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