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11/9/2018 23:56:45   
Vaulen
Member

As an experienced player who occasionally logs in some time despite my busier life since I first signed up, one thing I've always had an issue with is healing. Now, I know I have no hard statistics to back up my points, it is one of the reasons why I've never tried to address this issue in the past, whether it was in the days of Kalanyr, Barrius, or now. But I feel that despite this, I do have some insight to provide in this topic.

A key component in any RPG is the concept of healing, to stave off death or defeat in order to persevere and ultimately succeed where your opponent will not. Often this will be seen through the use of healing items, mage party members, or specific weapons/tools/abilities that allow siphoning of an enemy to restore ones health. But none of this are truly viable in AQ Classic and haven't been for a long time. Potions were completely awful until a year or so ago when they finally updated them, but even now their use is still restrained due to not just the removal of using 2 at a time (which I presume was done due to their increased healing via the update) but both taking a turn for their usage and being difficult to acquire in a substantial amount (past 5). These problems constrain a healing system that is, honestly, already pretty rough. I recommend perhaps:
1. An easier, more effective way to acquire potions
2. A potion limit per turn so that they don't take the entire turn up. Like 3 potions, hp or mp, a turn for the player to utilize as well as costing like, 100 sp or so as well.

I know that most enemies do not have access to the same benefits that players can receive, but to make up for this they are often able to have stats that are unattainable by players (giving them an attack power requiring exclusive elemental resistance investment to even stand a chance against, or being capable of dodging/blocking damage more than players usually can outside of possible investments in z-token items or so) along with having certain skills like blind/paralyses inflection that only sometimes can the player be warned against when the SP bar is flashing. That isn't even to mention their health bars which usually far surpass that which players can achieve, often not needing to heal or waiting till low health while players are stressing out trying to heal themselves with inadequate means.

Due to my limited experience (I've only maintained a singular, str/dex/luck build character in my 13 years playing), I cannot speak with certainty on how effective the healing spells are like Angel wings or Kiss of the Amesha, but I can say that things like Healing waters are wholly inadequate even with something like the Teacup of Life to boost its effects, usually healing around 250-300 points that can be, even with 9 or lower percent, easily completely or mostly erased. The same can be said for pets or guests which can heal hp or mp, though beastmasters could correct me on this should I (likely) need to be. The Guardian Angel is a noticeable example coming to mind, which, though it didn't heal as often, its original form at least allowed the chance of a Full Heal, which certainly saved my character back in older times. Now, though far more likely to occur, the healing is barely noticeable.

Maybe these are issues only for someone in the later stages of the game, having a 150 char and trying to conquer the challenges which had long since taunted me back in my weaker days. But I honestly do think this is something that needs to be addressed, especially since the game is aging and (seemingly) going for a more "wide variety of options to use" rather than constraining players to a specific series of sets to utilize.
AQ DF  Post #: 1
11/10/2018 0:30:11   
AliceShiki
Member

You're probably not using the right setup.

Try using a fully defensive armor and a misc that reduces the damage you take by *0.5 when using healing. Chances are, you'll probably be able to heal loop very easily against almost any boss in the game.

As for the potions, try going to Crossroads -> Yonder or to the Guardian Tower -> Teleporter -> Triple Challenge. Both of those options give 1 potion whenever you win a battle.
Potions are ridiculously strong though, they aren't even taken into account by standards due to how OP they are. Don't expect any buff to them.
AQ  Post #: 2
11/10/2018 2:32:46   
Vaulen
Member

Are they truly strong though? 700 on minimum with a rare chance of 1000 is nice, but the removal of a turn and the likelihood of losing at least half of the gain to a possible crit from the monster and/or their special ability removing said gains entirely due to needing a specific set up that even then doesn't at least give a guarantee of survival. Creatures that utilize multiple elements can be nightmarish, like the Underbeast. Even when utilizing a defensive build the heal loop can be easily interrupted, especially if the foe utilizes paralysis, stone, etc.

If this was the early days before status ailments and other special abilities, the potions would still likely need a bit of tweaking, but they'd be mostly fine. But with how the game has proceeded, there is a need for better, more reliable options for healing. Not everyone is going to solely invest in int and charisma, warriors and Rangers will need options as well. Availability and realibility of healing is a major tenant of RPG's and while the team have made strides in improving the situation (trust me, it isn't as bad as 05-08 could be), it still could use further tweaking.
AQ DF  Post #: 3
11/10/2018 3:07:37   
Lord Markov
Member

I can understand not wanting to use healing spells in this day and age, but I do have to wonder what's going on if potions aren't cutting it for you. A single potion should be buying you at least one additional turn (i.e. the turn you healed + one more to act on) against even the toughest bosses unless you're doing something horribly wrong.
AQ  Post #: 4
11/10/2018 3:31:19   
AliceShiki
Member

I'm sorry to say it, but potions are absurdly strong, even against a challenge boss that had a huge bug that made it way way harder than it should be, potions were still able to make almost everyone win against it.

Healing is in a fine spot right now, and potions are way above that... You need to tweak your build a bit if healing isn't being that useful for you, because I'm using healing spells in an offensive build and they're being very useful... They should be way better in a defensive build.
AQ  Post #: 5
11/10/2018 7:12:15   
Bu Kek Siansu
Member


quote:

You're probably not using the right setup.

Try using a fully defensive armor and a misc that reduces the damage you take by *0.5 when using healing. Chances are, you'll probably be able to heal loop very easily against almost any boss in the game.

I agree with AliceShiki.

  • If you really have an issue regarding healing.

    Your top 8 active Misc Items:
    1. Head of Raydius Dragon = -10% Earth/Darkness, +15 DEX, +5 STR/INT
    2. Evil Eyeglasses = -10% Light
    3. Fruitcake Brick = *0.5 Water
    4. Ice Orb Essence = -8% Ice
    5. Frostval Merc's Smoke Grenade = *0.6 Darkness, +50 DEX
    6. Windter Crown = *0.5 Wind
    7. Blood Ruby = *0.5 Energy, +50 STR/LUK
    8. Amulet of Drakonnan G = -10% Fire, +50 INT, +9 Magic defense

    You have the 8 defensive miscs from each element: Fire/Water/Wind/Ice/Earth/Energy/Light/Darkness.
    You don't need Frostval Merc's Smoke Grenade since Head of Raydius Dragon covers it for -10% Darkness.
    Instead, replace Frostval Merc's Smoke Grenade for Essence Orb
    since you're as a Warrior, you mostly need some more SP for skills and anything else.

    Also, you might want to have Fairy Godmother G to heal your HP or MP especially your HP.
    To make her stronger in order to heal your HP or MP more, you might want to have 50 CHA or more.

    Your current stats: 200 STR/DEX/LUK, 70 INT, 80 END

    How about this: 200 STR/DEX/LUK, 50 INT/END/CHA

    Or this one: 200 STR/DEX/LUK, 50 INT, 100 CHA

    Or this one: 200 STR/DEX, 50 INT, 100 END/CHA/LUK

    Or this one: 200 STR/LUK, 50 INT, 100 DEX/END/CHA

    Or this one: 200 STR/INT, 150 DEX, 100 END/CHA

    Or this one: 200 STR/DEX/INT, 100 END, 50 CHA

    Or this one: 200 STR/DEX/INT, 50 END, 100 CHA

    Or this one: 200 STR/DEX/INT, 150 CHA

    Or this one: 200 STR/INT, 100 DEX/END/CHA, 50 LUK

  • Otherwise, this one: 200 STR/DEX/INT, 150 END <= It's good for your Subrace Werepyre

  • In any case, click the options under SP bar, then more, then select Game Option
    Ready Inv Before Battle (AQ) to prevent from unexpected incoming attacks.
    Then manage the right setup element armor and shield against the incoming element attack.




    < Message edited by Bu Kek Siansu -- 11/10/2018 8:11:56 >
  • Post #: 6
    11/10/2018 18:44:15   
    Vaulen
    Member

    Perhaps my build is too archaic, thank you all for the advice. I hope I did not come off as belligerent or hostile.
    AQ DF  Post #: 7
    11/12/2018 18:36:24   
    ruleandrew
    Member
     

    Source: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=18263048

    quote:


    Level is the player's level
    PowLevel is the player's "power level" as modified by Guardian status. A player who is a Guardian gains at least three levels on top of their usual level.
    Player HP = [23.8 * ((5.25 + 0.5625 * Level + 0.00375 * Level^2) + (1 + 0.066 * Level) * END/16) * 1/1.4]


    Assume the player is level 150 (guardian player) and use a 0 END build then player hp is: ~ 3044 [this number should be 2958 not 3044]

    quote:


    Spell Base Damage = [2*(1 - Wild)*(5.25 + 0.5625*PLvl + 0.00375*PLvl^2)]
    Spell Random Damage = [4*(5.25 + 0.5625*PLvl + 0.00375*PLvl^2)] - 2*(Spell Base Damage)

    Note that auto hit penalty is *0.85 and always useful penalty is *0.9


    Assume the player is level 150 (guardian player) and use a 0 INT build then player healing spell mean amount: ~ 274 hp

    Ratio between healing spell mean amount and player hp is 274/3044 (~0.0900)

    The healing spell are not overpowered. Healing spell heal 1.8 times the typical standard monster attack (one turn with player wearing appropriate neutral armor).

    quote:


    HP recovered drinking one Health Potion = 2 * 0.85 * ((10.5 + 1.125 * Level + 0.0075 * Level^2) + (1 + 0.066 * Level) * END/16) HP, with a 10% chance of that END/16 being replaced by END/16 + LUK * 3/16.


    Assume the player is level 150 (guardian player) and use a 0 END build then player healing potion mean amount: ~ 609 hp

    Ratio between healing potion mean amount and player hp is 609/3044 (~0.2001)

    The healing potion are not overpowered. Healing potion heal 4 times the typical standard monster attack (one turn with player wearing appropriate neutral armor).

    Edit: Carandor number are accurate.

    < Message edited by ruleandrew -- 11/18/2018 5:07:32 >
    AQ  Post #: 8
    11/16/2018 8:13:05   
      Carandor

    ArchKnight
    AdventureQuest


    No one suggested healing spells are overpowered. Most would say the opposite in fact. Especially when you compare them to potions, which heal more, don't take up an inventory slot and cost a fraction of the SP (or equivalent) that healing spells do.

    Also, your math is off.
    quote:

    Assume the player is level 150 (guardian player) and use a 0 END build then player hp is: ~ 3044

    Max HP for a level 150 guardian with 0 END is 2958.
    quote:

    Assume the player is level 150 (guardian player) and use a 0 END build then player healing potion mean amount: ~ 609 hp

    Minimum HP restored from a potion for a lvl 150 guardian with 0 END is 621, so the average with LS's included would be higher still. I'm guessing the master list of game formulae doesn't mention guardians heal *1.05 of the normal amount.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 9
    12/4/2018 16:20:04   
    Phlox Lover
    Member

    quote:

    No one suggested healing spells are overpowered.


    I've always wondered why they need to get penalties for auto-hit and always useful. Like, yeah. It's a damn healing spell. And then they're made worse. Tbh the only time healing spells are ever useful are when they crit. Otherwise, they're totally not worth the inventory slot.

    I wonder if that's a GBI, even though the game's design takes them into account....
    Post #: 10
    12/4/2018 23:53:00   
    Primate Murder
    Member

    I do wonder why the recent regen stuff heals you as if the monster's resists are 100, like Hunger or Ethereal Soul Drinker. I mean, if the monster's resist's are 200%, we sacrifice 5*2 damage's worth of MC, so why do we only heal worth 5%?

    I mean, it just seems like an arbitrary and unnecessary penalty.
    AQ  Post #: 11
    12/5/2018 17:38:53   
    Legendary Ash
    Member

    Healing from those items are designed to be unaffected by resistance to prevent an arbitrary healing loop mechanism that exists when resistance are high.
    A primary example that represents the current model: two monsters A/B/C deal 150 dmg per turn, A has 3,000 Hp at 100% resists and B has 6,000 Hp at 200% resists, C has 1500 Hp 50% resists.
    From a balance perspective they have the same rate of being defeated if the player deals 300 per turn in a Neutral lean armor once accuracy has been factored in.

    Assume player has a weapon that deals 75% dmg like Nilak's Frostbite for an effect, and heals 1/3 the amount of damage dealt, the player would heal 75 Hp on the monster A, 150 Hp on B and 37.5 Hp on C. With B the player would be able to heal loop every turn due to resists having a positive impact on the heal, while with C there is a negative impact on healing.

    From a balance standpoint monster A, B and C are variants of each other and shouldn't produce differing levels of difficulty for the player.
    Thus in a simplified balance the heal is designed to be unaffected by resistance to remove any situational advantages and disadvantages.

    The only exceptions are old items such as Beam sword/staff, Poseidon's Edge and the Sp skill Your Body Heals at the Speed of Light.
    AQ  Post #: 12
    12/5/2018 20:04:22   
    AliceShiki
    Member

    quote:

    I've always wondered why they need to get penalties for auto-hit and always useful. Like, yeah. It's a damn healing spell. And then they're made worse. Tbh the only time healing spells are ever useful are when they crit. Otherwise, they're totally not worth the inventory slot.

    I wonder if that's a GBI, even though the game's design takes them into account....

    Auto-hit is easy to explain... Would you rather have your healing spell deal *0.85 damage or would you rather have a chance of missing your own healing spell? Staff decided the former option was better.

    *0.9 for always useful is because you can use it against any opponent, most spells can only be used against enemies of specific elements.


    Regardless, considering that player HP and monster damage here both divided by 1.4 back when patch 39.2 was rolled out, the damage of a healing spell proportional to your HP should be around the same as the damage of a standard spell proportional to the monster's damage.

    Healing spells are fine, you just need to use them in a defensive armor with a defensive misc and you'll most likely be able to heal loop against most bosses.
    AQ  Post #: 13
    12/6/2018 2:26:58   
    Primate Murder
    Member

    @ LA

    That would make sense for healing spells and skills and other things affecting only the player.

    On the other hand, when using a heal based on 'damage dealt', you naturally pick the most optimized weapon for the encounter - you don't use a light weapon against a light monster solely for the 5% heal. Reducing the healing to 100% is a straight up nerf.

    I honestly see no reason to enforce healing spell standards on 'damage dealt' type healing weapons.
    AQ  Post #: 14
    12/6/2018 3:55:52   
    AliceShiki
    Member

    @Primate Murder It's just to make you heal the same amount regardless of you fighting a Zeel or a Sand Golem, don't think too much on it~
    AQ  Post #: 15
    12/6/2018 4:42:11   
    Primate Murder
    Member

    But that's just it, you shouldn't heal the same amount!

    Healing spells are designed to be useful in a any situation, hence -100% heal resistance and *0.9 penalty. But when put on a weapon, it is not, in fact, always useful - and as far as I know, healing weapons don't have that *0.9 penalty. You're not going to be using a light weapon against anything except a darkness monster, unless you want to suffer a large damage reduction.

    So why put in the /resist penalty? You do deal increased damage against higher resist monsters, you gain elecomp to DoT effects when using an ele-locked skill, so what makes healing so inherently different?

    Besides, let's be frank, if you're not using a harm weapon/spell against a Zeel, you deserve to heal less.

    < Message edited by Primate Murder -- 12/6/2018 4:49:20 >
    AQ  Post #: 16
    12/6/2018 17:22:55   
    Legendary Ash
    Member

    I think the existence of potions as a scarce but available resource makes it so there is only an advantage and no disadvantage when RNG chooses a monster from a pool with 1% to 200% resistance weaknesses.
    There is little reason for a player to carry a traditional Harm element healing spell outside of tedious heal looping that 25 to 35 potions wouldn't suffice or to cleanse a status so that a boss doesn't get to trigger higher damage output.

    The ideal yet realistic situation in the game currently is that one would stock up on potions and have an inventory of resistance scaled healing spells. Half the range of 1% to 200%, from 100% to 200% would give an advantage for player, the other half, from 1% to 100%, the player uses a potion/Harm element spell and never has to suffer the consequences of low resistances.

    /resistance may refer to a standard amount of "spirit" essence when draining resources, a weakness may mean greater damage but one could say each monster has the same amount of "spirit" essence to drain from which is 1, something like a singular soul gained by Zombie Axe Master and Paragon items.
    AQ  Post #: 17
    12/6/2018 18:39:06   
    AliceShiki
    Member

    @Primate Murder Not everyone makes room in their inventory for a harm weapon, so they'll just use their day to day weapon... And staff decided that those players should have the right to heal as much against an enemy like a Zeel as they have against any other monsters.

    It's not a penalty, it's a design choice to make weapons with HP drain specials work as well against high res mobs and low res mobs.

    @Legendary Ash Or maybe the player doesn't want to use potions since they're not taken into account by standards and stuff? Dunno, feels like most people consider that they lost the fight if they use a potion in it.
    AQ  Post #: 18
    12/6/2018 19:14:44   
      afterlifex
    Mod-X


    ^ Potions, I would say that's more accurate opinion in the past yes. These days things have softened a bit on the matter from what I have seen, use what's around.




    As for healing spells and potions, potions are a stop gap for spells, a band-aid. Healing spells aren't easy to balance unless they become something all their own i.e. take monster power into account for example. (Completely ignore all other balance in the game).

    Healing spells are balanced much like all other things such as stun, +1 turn vs a normal monster(kind of where the "always useful" makes since, imagine a stun with no save" same basic idea).
    Quick cast is probably the easiest way to make them "ok" but for the resource expenditure even then there are better options, it's only really good for an Opps moment like potions. You can also increase power to account for the dmg you want to heal and the turn you cast it(based around a normal monster). Not a fan of the idea myself.


    The issue is since they assume normal monsters that makes then near useless vs harder hitting monsters (Boss+ or glass cannons). The alt is true if they are good vs the hardest hitting monsters they become OP vs normal or even tank Boss+ monsters(heal loop meta was a thing once). There isn't any middle ground.

    < Message edited by afterlifex -- 12/6/2018 19:22:02 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 19
    12/6/2018 19:25:17   
    Legendary Ash
    Member

    Resistance miscs which are not as popular in the damage driven meta makes healing more reliable against normal to hard hitting boss monsters, heal loops can be set up against a fair amount of standard bosses that put their Power Lv 4 score evenly in damage and health, so 2x to each compared to a normal monster, given the combination of a maximized resist misc, healing pet and guest.
    AQ  Post #: 20
    12/6/2018 19:47:53   
    Lineolata
    Member
     

    Healing spells could also take monster leans into account, if factoring in monster power is on the table.
    AQ DF  Post #: 21
    12/7/2018 7:30:13   
    Phlox Lover
    Member

    quote:

    Auto-hit is easy to explain... Would you rather have your healing spell deal *0.85 damage or would you rather have a chance of missing your own healing spell? Staff decided the former option was better.


    Why do they need a penalty? They can be an exception, seeing as they, you know, have no choice but to auto-hit.

    If you're spending your MP that you could otherwise spend on what, 100-400 damage? And then you have a .95*.85 penalty on that? It's like, potions are infinitely better. They don't take a spell slot, they don't cost anything (losing a turn doesn't matter), and they're literally infinite.
    Post #: 22
    12/7/2018 10:09:14   
    Primate Murder
    Member

    I mean, the /resist actually became a thing only recently. What made the staff implement this? I mean, with sub-100 resist monsters being few and far between, this actually gives a 30-100% decrease in the power of healing.

    I can understand why purely healing spells and skills use that 100% resist healing, but why use it with 'damage dealt' type healing like on the weapons? That was my original question.


    @ Afterlifex

    IIRC, most stun-type stuff use (resist*100%) stun, excepting qc stuff like Mesmerize or Love Potion. That kinda proves my point. Any stun used with elemental damage is affected by monster's resistance. So why is healing /resist?
    AQ  Post #: 23
    12/7/2018 17:43:47   
    AliceShiki
    Member

    quote:

    Why do they need a penalty? They can be an exception, seeing as they, you know, have no choice but to auto-hit.

    Exactly because they need to auto-hit that they receive a penalty, that's how balance works... >.>
    quote:

    If you're spending your MP that you could otherwise spend on what, 100-400 damage? And then you have a .95*.85 penalty on that? It's like, potions are infinitely better. They don't take a spell slot, they don't cost anything (losing a turn doesn't matter), and they're literally infinite.

    Comparing spells with potions doesn't constitute a GBI because potions aren't taken into account by standards. It's like comparing any damage spell with Zorbak -> Artix Ally Assists, why use spells if you can just hit the opponent with void damage all the time that costs 0 MP and doesn't need INT?

    ... I know the comparison is a bit unfair since Ally Assists do cost tokens and stuff, but the point still remains that potions aren't taken into account by standards, just like Ally Assists aren't. If you wish to compare the effectiveness of healing spells, you need to compare them with other balanced gear to constitute a GBI.
    AQ  Post #: 24
    12/8/2018 11:54:57   
    roobee
    Member
     

    The problem with saying that if something isn't accounted for in standards then it can't be compared is that standards don't take into account a lot. SP isn't accounted for in standards. Does that mean that it's fine for SP items to be much more powerful than non-SP items because they shouldn't be compared? That's a lot of items that we are saying we can just ignore the balance of. That said, specifically for potions and Ally Assists I agree that they shouldn't be accounted for in standards.
    Post #: 25
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