RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread


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12/25/2018 17:24:38

you stop
Member

Pretty sure that was pointed out already but anyway, I'd like to raise a point that this class potentially is the most annoying support in the game as well. It's a great support for Eternal Chrono but at the same time, autoattacks from a kilometer away so it pulls the boss off of every melee class's range, more especially on EC. An AoE class with plain terrible damage and ranged auto, I really dont see the point in this at all. It might be trivial but on EC specifically, even half a second of not autoattacking/using abilities could mean the difference between a 100k crit and a 70k crit.

< Message edited by you stop -- 12/25/2018 17:25:23 >

AQW	Post #: 26

12/25/2018 20:13:04

Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!

quote:

The class shouldn't be used for AoE farming at all, doesn't have the capable dps to do that.

It does, it just lacks potential damage. Literally all the "good" AoE classes have some variable in them due to crits, mostly.
Shaman, Chaos Slayer, Eteneral Inversionist, Royal Battlemage, Vampire Lord (less so due to Aspect of The Bat), Abyssal Angel, Scarlet Sorceress, Shadowscythe General, probably also Master of Moglins and SSoT neither which I have no experience with. All of these class' potential AoE damage output is far greater than FB's, but potential damage output is not guaranteed. If Blaze Binder is deserving of being considered a viable AoE class, so can FB. Imagine the Auto attack being equal to Combustion Blaze and Enrage being Dark Fire, but on about half the cooldown and that is basically Enraged FB in a nutshell, minus the DoTs.

FB is absolutely lacking in sustain while being Enraged and does best against HP ranges where it can 1 shot with buffed Auto Attack + Buffed Enrage, otherwise you run into the Troll Spellsmith problem of waiting for cooldowns that you would rather not, especially if there's only 1 enemy left, in the case of variable HP, which does limit where it could be most usable. Other AoE classes are more versatile so they less frequently run into this issue and also all of them (with the exception of EI) have proper sustain to make them able to run basically forever without resting, but in the cases you kill enemies with the 1,2 punch of Enrage + Auto attack, the sustain part is irrelevant. There's few spots where I would take this class over other ones, but those spots still exist.

On a side note about Enrage, which has nothing to do with my previous arguments, apparently it applies "Focus", which implies it's a taunt. Just something I have noticed while playing around with it.

AQW	Post #: 27

12/25/2018 20:22:22

you stop
Member

I guess I could maybe try testing it but I dont have the necessary resources to do so. Perhaps someone could? Though do use something similar to Lvl 85 enh so it's still in scale with the previous measure that I did. That or retest all the other classes just to give a fair comparison

AQW	Post #: 28

12/26/2018 9:16:54

Tyroniter
Member

So about Frostval Barbarian, Full Luck is the way to go again I assume?

AQW	Post #: 29

12/26/2018 10:25:34

Randomnity
Member

You could go full Luck, but the main advantage of full Luck is bigger crits that make up for lower auto attack damage. However, this class cannot crit, except on procs like Spiral Carve. Full Fighter I would think would be the way to go, unless you want to rely on Spiral Carve proccing.

AQ	Post #: 30

12/26/2018 11:37:33

you stop
Member

Either works tbh. I doubt it matters too much given at how little the class contributes in a party regarding its own damage. In farming, then maybe it'll matter but again I don't think it's a good idea to use the class in farming except maybe when you can 1 shot the mobs with 5 such that you dont get the haste debuff.

AQW	Post #: 31

12/26/2018 12:52:46

Rayimika
Banned

As a leeway of health deficit one could stop attacking, wait for Enrage to run out then wait necessary amount of heal over time ticks.
While in party doing nothing but applying silvers reward experience and loot and is self-sufficient besides if melee wants to keep his target maybe run up close first things first.
Just my two cents. Fighter ftw dat four thousand hitpoints buddy.

AQW

Post #: 32

12/26/2018 22:15:18

you stop
Member

HP doesnt really mean much. The class is more than capable of sustaining itself. It's damage is abyssmal in a team setting. I bet I could run full Spitfire enhancements and it'll only change the outcome by half a second in a full party

AQW	Post #: 33

12/26/2018 23:24:58

Sambud
Member

Anyone know whether or not infinity knight has been mentioned to be getting a rework or buff to it's mana regeneration? Just curious, the class isn't rare yet, so it falls under the "classes that aren't rare, are eligible to be changed rule."

AQW

Post #: 34

12/26/2018 23:52:18

you stop
Member

You're going to have to ask Devs for that. I dont think anyone here knows as of now.

AQW	Post #: 35

12/27/2018 1:23:08

Dante Redorigin
Member

FB could be fixed with one simple tweak to Barbaric Strike to make it able to crit only when Enraged. It'd make it shift from a high speed melee support to a slower, high damage burst AoE without making it too skewed towards one or the other. Having it only able to crit using Spiral Carve blocks off any real potential use of it for those who haven't/can't yet complete the Blade of Awe quests for the Awe Enhancements and that kinda goes against the idea of it being a holiday class for all players to be able to use. I really don't get why they blocked off the crit for the auto attack in the first place, at best they could have made it lower the crit chance for it until Enrage is active if not tying it to it outright.

Post #: 36

12/27/2018 1:42:46

Edme MacHeath
Member

quote:

It does, it just lacks potential damage. Literally all the "good" AoE classes have some variable in them due to crits, mostly.
Shaman, Chaos Slayer, Eteneral Inversionist, Royal Battlemage, Vampire Lord (less so due to Aspect of The Bat), Abyssal Angel, Scarlet Sorceress, Shadowscythe General, probably also Master of Moglins and SSoT neither which I have no experience with. All of these class' potential AoE damage output is far greater than FB's, but potential damage output is not guaranteed. If Blaze Binder is deserving of being considered a viable AoE class, so can FB. Imagine the Auto attack being equal to Combustion Blaze and Enrage being Dark Fire, but on about half the cooldown and that is basically Enraged FB in a nutshell, minus the DoTs.

The class is significantly slower than most, if not all of those classes ,with or without enrage. Using potential damage as any argument is really just a poor way of saying that all other classes have the ability to crit when FB doesn't. It's not a good measure of worth for anything in regards to FB, and if you're trying to argue FB is more consistent and therefore is viable, then I disagree. Consistency is nice but being significantly slower works against consistency. There are plenty of better options with similar levels of consistency or options that just outperform FB in all if not most areas.

AQ	Post #: 37

12/27/2018 5:33:50

Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!

quote:

I really don't get why they blocked off the crit for the auto attack in the first place, at best they could have made it lower the crit chance for it until Enrage is active if not tying it to it outright.

1. They want to skew people towards not using Luck enhancements. Not that this class really changes anything, meta-wise. For most people, it's just a nuisance that you would have to run anything else than Luck or Wiz, or rely on Spiral Carves or other Awe enhancements. You wont get much DPS mileage out of the class anyways, Awe or otherwise.
2. They wanted the class to basically only do 1 thing, being a support. The AoE part of it looks more like an afterthought so the class wouldn't only be usable in a single, pretty specific situation.

quote:

The class is significantly slower than most, if not all of those classes ,with or without enrage.

Unless you can bring some hard data on that to definitely prove that FB is a horrible AoE class, there's no reason to believe that. I have used it for a bit now, at various HP intervals and it does perform similarly to Blaze Binder, just with a slightly harder time killing of stranglers with low HP and has no heal unless it decreases it's own damage for a while, making it mostly useful for low/mid HP mobs, in the case of continuous farming on set enemies without resting. It can barely hold against 1 screen of Toweofdoom5, if you loop Enraged constantly, for example. Health Vamp could sort of give the class a semblance of sustain while Enraged, but with the slow auto attack, even hitting 3 enemies at once, the proc rate is still not great. It also needs some specific HP amounts, which is dependent on your Enrage and auto attack
damage to avoid needing to wait ~4 seconds to take down the remaining couple hundred HP of enemies. Versatility is definitely not it's strong point.

It being consistent doesn't give it a free pass and that discussion was already had before, regarding Blaze Binder, but people disregard it's AoE potential too quickly due to the haste debuff + lack of crits, when it still gets the job done at about the same pace as other mid/high tier AoE classes. Maybe my opinion could change once I reach lvl 90 and get proper Awe enhancements again, I have only been using normal enhancements with FB, outside of testing Full Luck FB with Spiral Carve (both Enraged and not enraged) vs Full Fighter, Enraged FB against a single enemy. I doubt the AoE viability would change much with Awe enhancements though.

AQW	Post #: 38

12/27/2018 6:42:34

you stop
Member

quote:

FB could be fixed

First off it doesnt need fixing. Second if it does need fixing then so do every other class.

quote:

I doubt the AoE viability would change much with Awe enhancements though.

It does increase the damage but I'll just repeat myself: I could run full Spitfire and I doubt the change is so big that I'd consider Full Fighter. Same goes for Awe Enh. I could live with or without and I doubt the change would be so big.

For AoE maybe it'll change clear speeds by 1 second which only matters on a really long farm. By then, I'd rather much use Shaman

< Message edited by you stop -- 12/27/2018 6:43:34 >

AQW	Post #: 39

12/27/2018 7:23:40

Paulus Xiphos
Member

a small recourse from FB tho...

What are you assessments on GB? As in novelty, efficiency and DPS.

AQW	Post #: 40

12/27/2018 7:37:03

Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!

Great DPS class, amazing debuffs, is generally outpaced by stacking classes on longer fights though and doesn't benefit as much from SC as other classes due to already capping out it's own haste, usually. It's definitely on my list of recommended classes. It also has he highest crit rate of any class (with the exception of Vampire Lord's temporary crit chance buff), going well over 90% and might even be 100% at level 90.

AQW	Post #: 41

12/27/2018 9:25:02

you stop
Member

It's tier 4 in my list. My list being:

Tier 1:
4.5k upwards
>SSoT
>IC

Tier 2:
3.5k-4k DPS
>LC
>VHL

Tier 3:
3k DPS
>LDK

Tier 4:
2-2.5k DPS
>HP Vamp EPL
>GB
>MP Vamp SC

Tier 5:
>everything else

AQW	Post #: 42

12/27/2018 9:41:30

Tyroniter
Member

Huh didn't realise Evolved Pumpkin Lord was that good, what's it like without HP Vamp though? Also UOK should be up there too imo, it can dish out quite a lot of damage from a pure DPS point of view.

AQW	Post #: 43

12/27/2018 11:19:31

Rayimika
Banned

Testing lucky with spiral carve shenanigan-anecdote was a complete waste of time so it is it seems during proc the barbierian only crits on awe portion of damage his nuke remaining white and auto attack devoid of big stat-enhanced numbers as description states.

< Message edited by Rayimika -- 12/27/2018 11:20:21 >

AQW

Post #: 44

12/27/2018 13:00:33

Hardcastle McCormick
Member

EPL May have lower long-term DPS than LDK, but in shorter fights it easily beats LDK and even LC. It’s basically my goto single target class until I get VHL...

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 12/27/2018 13:03:46 >

AQW	Post #: 45

12/27/2018 13:11:43

you stop
Member

quote:

barbierian only crits on awe portion of damage his nuke

Me in another thread:

quote:

Spiral Carve Crit:
Fighter: 2548
Luck: 4014

Auto:
F:412
L: 370

HoT:
F: 501
L: 451

Theoretical Maths
>Spiral Carve is on a 10% rate, with full haste, that should proc once every 15 seconds, aka every 10 autoattacks.
>This is of course, assuming perfect statistics. We all know it's not but let's just use that for the argument

Fighter:
(412 x 10) + 2548 = 6668 damage dealt over 15 seconds

Luck:
(370 x 10) + 4014 = 7714 damage dealt over 15 seconds

quote:

what's [EPL] like without HP Vamp though?

It's about 1.8k DPS. You're practically forced to go defensive once in a while. The point of HP Vamp is so you can continuously use Sprout + Explosive Pumpkin without worrying about your HP so much

< Message edited by you stop -- 12/27/2018 13:35:24 >

AQW	Post #: 46

12/27/2018 13:23:11

Rayimika
Banned

Pardon me my possible noobness and stating the obvious but wouldn't in that case powerword die be better sorry, dps.

AQW

Post #: 47

12/27/2018 13:35:56

you stop
Member

No that's just a straight no. By the time you wouldve even proc a PWD any other thing wouldve died through normal autos or Spiral Carve

< Message edited by you stop -- 12/27/2018 13:36:46 >

AQW	Post #: 48

12/27/2018 13:50:52

Metakirby
Constructive & Helpful!

So a couple changes has happened to FB.
1. The auto attack is on a 2.75 second cooldown now. Ever so slightly more DPS, meh, what gives?
2. The auto attack is no longer ranged.

Good for the people who uses it for it's intended purpose, bad for people who liked the way the AoE part of it worked.

It's a lot harder to use properly now, since you essentially lose a whole auto attack cycle when you use Enrage without enemies in melee range. That hurts it's potential use cases a lot, it relied on that extra damage to get the job done a lot of the time.

Guess I'm gonna go back to RBM as my usual AoE class.

AQW	Post #: 49

12/27/2018 14:50:14

Rayimika
Banned

You stop's numbers roughly compare to what I get in practice, i.e:
477 and 555 with dexterity flask two Enrages to one Frozen Beard, Thief set and Health Vampire on Aranx... taking breaks to heal up when below 50%.

AQW

Post #: 50

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