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The death of Beastmasters

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2/11/2019 22:11:58   

OK so,

We have finally come across to the death of one of the most fun somewhat meta and always more fun builds beast-masters and arcane beast-masters. :( Since the newest update
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=17881426&mpage=3&key=� we now have almost no way or chance to inflict a status besides pure damage ones. However because of pure damage pets being significantly worse then status pets AND boosters existing and using main-stat. We now have no real reason to ever touch cha ever again. You may argue "but boosters need some cha" and I say to that yea sure, HOWEVER just use arcane amp /int boosters in general and that cha requirement becomes so worthless that the stat-points could go into anything else and be more effective. now even at a new cap of +50 for bosses we run an issue of your best chance at inflicting something like fear for example is now a +30 which is already abysmal in general and THIS IS WITH terror mask. Control has the same issue where even with rares your either at a +0 for 3 turns or a +20 because accordion shield for example is a -20 and 50-20 is 30 however cracked ornament is also a -10 so 50-30 is +20. However you say "what about pure damage effects like burn poison and bleed" whelp your outta luck because 2/3 of those are a complete waste of time and resources. Bleed is now the only effect BMs can effectively get off without much issue because scarab pet is a -20 already and cracked ornament is a -10 it can last a long time as well because its infinite turns until the save is reached usually its on END which monsters normally have max of or almost max of... so.... instead of wasting any resources on that mess just use a booster and it'll die in less time with less resources AND in addition to all that its omni-elemental AND gives all that damage to you so you can just continue nuking anything into non existence... So I'm writing this to let out my frustration and to say goodbye to one of the most fun builds ingame and to swap to poemage because its the only real option to be competitive. Its super efficient and breaks everything. Its always useful and always powerful. And if it gets affected by literally anything you just negate and remove all the damage anyways. So to all fellow Beastmasters goodbye.

-xenix55/The Beastmaster
Post #: 1
2/11/2019 23:20:36   

You are not wrong but be aware that all (and yes that includes DEX) stats should get a rework in the next weeks.

For now beastmasters may lack either damage or status chances since not enouch stats points avaible yes,
but I sure hope that some of the other "nessesary" stats will get less important and we will be back in business.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 2
2/11/2019 23:23:41   

Against regular enemies I don't have any problem playing as a Beastmaster. I play it for role playing and fun purposes.

The only thing I agree with you here on are the new trend of Bosses. But then again, they are a very, very small part of the monster pools. However I do think it is important to discuss this trend before it becomes a major problem.
Post #: 3
2/11/2019 23:25:04   

You hope however that doesnt fix boosters or help cha at all atleast for the moment all I can do is be hopeful that they will fix this mistake and either fix or remedy the entire 250 stat issue in general. Right now boosters are now stronger then where they were originally because the only nerf that happened to them was it always followed dunamis standard except poes only got that nerf and it doesnt matter how nerfed they are (the cha nerf is a joke) but they still are the best because atleast as its worded CHA END and DEX are useless or not nearly as strong as before.

Regular enemies nobodies ever had issues with since 2014 and earlier because we can just steamroll them anyways so to say "oh on regular enemies your gonna be ok" yea sure my 150 str int 250 cha 200 luk build worked just fine on reg enemies even though its a TERRIBLE build. The only monsters that actually matter in AQ are bosses/new bosses because they actually are a threat with systems and statuses. But I think removing multiple builds from existence as a way to balance players imo is terrible. Every "balance patch" has further weakened BMs and this is the final "nail in the coffin" for BMs as a build. These "balance patches" also make boosters even stronger and more viable because it removes all other competition. Unless they nerf boosters really hard like 25% mainstat 75% cha or just make them scale off cha like everything else so atleast you HAVE to give up something AND it makes CHA viable only because it has boosters in it which is just a bandaid and not a fix for most of the game... Unless its the plan to eliminate all pets/guests except boosters.

< Message edited by 123456aq -- 2/11/2019 23:30:56 >
Post #: 4
2/11/2019 23:28:06   

I don't think things are quite that dire yet, but I have to agree that bosses are more relevant than ordinary mobs- bosses are supposed to be where the challenge's at, after all.
AQ DF  Post #: 5
2/11/2019 23:33:10   

Yea and the statuses that helped with that and made BMs closer to poemage levels of competitive just got nuked outta existance... Yes I personally LOVE boss boost because atleast its a discintivation to just lock it out and the softcap of void queen helped to make it less nukeable. Bosses like these are really really cool and really interesting to fight since I don't have to just "call poes push skill monster dies"

Like bleed is the only BM status thats even worthwhile but poes are even better at what bleed does with less resources. and its way less specific and you gain a powerboost because you can use werepyre and their amazing kit
Post #: 6
2/11/2019 23:36:54   

Does anyone have a Neko character? How are the status infliction rate on those? My characters don't have them at the moment. So I am rather curious on their infliction rates now.
Post #: 7
2/11/2019 23:42:52   

Neko had a heavy DoT focus, so Boss Boost shouldn't affect them much from what I remember. It doesn't apply to saves against pure damage statuses, like burn, bleed, or poison.
AQ DF  Post #: 8
2/11/2019 23:45:51   

According to some smart people in a discord server -20 statuses have 30% chance to inflict if your stats and boss stats are the same on a boss with a boss boost. Softcap poe nuking does way more and saves way more resources so........

Like neko burn stacking exists yea sure but you could just click attack and save all the resources and do it to anything anytime for basically free because the burns will eventually run out and burns are too weak to consider ik we had like celerity 60 power burns but now celerity doesnt exist... so bleed boosting sure its pretty lit but as far as im aware poe normal attacks are better and cheaper and a person from the discord seems to have this same conclusion

< Message edited by 123456aq -- 2/11/2019 23:58:40 >
Post #: 9
2/12/2019 0:16:43   

I’m having a hard time understanding staff logic. Lets try anyway, by using green text!

>250 stats that makes pure builds mostly the only thing to play with
>”nerfs” boosters
>promises a lot of good things that probably will benefit status stuff and make beast builds much more worth playing
>kills all beast builds by making boosters the only thing worth using again

What was the point? Was this an ‘easy’ fix untill the new? All this does is just making boosters OP again and making any sort of creative build hot garbage in comparison,basically making boosters in comparison to anything as OP as they used to be before the 4 nerfs. Anything but pure damage of any sort is not worth using.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
2/12/2019 0:25:08   


in light of the modifier cap removal, I too think that rolls are way too weak now. Particularly rolls for beast builds, especially FD nekos. Perhaps one option to remedying this is to change the modifiers on certain abilities? E.g increase nilak to -30, neko burns and bleeds from +20 to -5, etc etc
Post #: 11
2/12/2019 1:44:36   

Oh that’s a great idea but 99% that won’t happen, it’s too much work. This was a easy nerf done , an easy solution to stuns so thats too much work
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 12
2/12/2019 4:10:48   

my fourth character is a double Poe mage and yeah I literally can't see why you would play any other build. Even my main and secondary who are lvl 150 are weak compared to my lvl 110 pure mage.
AQ  Post #: 13
2/12/2019 4:23:25   


Staff, you are doing it wrooong! Do you even AQ?!
The OP builds are PURES, characters who BURST!
I know the Boss Boost helps to nerf that strategy somewhat, but it nerfs statuses for everyone!

How to fix a broken game:
- Change or get rid of problematic items.

Remember Eye of Naab? Do it again!
Essence Orb, QUICK-CAST spells, especially QC STUNS, those are the big issues in your game.

There is no risk in using EleLocked armour skills, and with all those free turns there is no risk using HP as a POWER RESOURCE.

Seriously, it seems so easy to do. We just need to look at the facts.
AQ  Post #: 14
2/12/2019 7:00:53   

I have a double poe mage primary and a neko BM secondary. Personally I think the constant tweeking,nerfing, boosting etc is great. I love the way things change even if it seems annoying at first because for me the changes mean altering my game play,improvising and adapting to new problems which makes it all much more fun.Wouldn't it be boring if everything stayed the same.

Thanks to all the staff for caring enough to evolve the game.
AQ  Post #: 15
2/12/2019 8:44:35   

this isn't evolving, it's dodging the problem of poe mages absolutely blasting everything in the face and taking what little shreds of bms remain and setting them on fire along with the houses they live in
Post #: 16
2/12/2019 11:35:00   

Yea and now its poemage or nothing and its really saddening considering I really enjoyed my BM and had fun finding new ways to beat bosses that poemages beat in 1 turn
Post #: 17
2/12/2019 11:58:50   
Lord Markov

Yeah my biggest problem with this is it's treating symptoms, not problems and doesn't even really address the real issue of insane burst damage. I can easily agree that stun/celerity lock strats were too good, but taking it out on every other status strat out there (blind, choke, panic, spiritual seed, etc.) and even turn skipping statuses that weren't capable of being so easily activated and stacked like paralyze are gonna feel the hurt. BM builds are going to feel this especially hard and I highly doubt it's going to change the fact that nuking is the best option, you'll just have to be more careful when you do it.

As a quick example of what this did to status rolls, using the formula from the master list of game formulae, take trying to utilize shadowfeeder pendant against Void Dragon Queen as a 250 luk player:
Major: (200 -275)/5 = -15 (we can also be generous and assume SFP is updated to use 250 instead of 200, thus giving us -5, however it won't make a difference)
Level: (148-150)/5 = -0.4 (Fairly trivial)
Minor: (250-225)/10 = +2.5 (The only bonus you're going to get, enjoy it :P)
Outside bonuses: (0 - 50) = -50

Now take the roll: 51 + (Major + Level + Minor + Outside) = -1.9 (-11.9 if we assume SFP isn't updated, which is more likely anyway)
In other words, the monster has to roll a d100 and get higher than -1.9 to resist the celerity. So good luck with them not resisting.
(I have heard that people have managed quite well to inflict celerity vs. the Queen since the update, so either the formulas we have are totally outdated, or the update is borked ATM. Would be nice to know which one.)

Now while a lot CHA based statuses will allow you to get a +20 major bonus on the roll since monsters rarely have CHA, and unlike celerity DO have outside means of boosting your chances, a lot of pet based rolls also have a base +20 to the roll on the monster's side, unlike shadow feeder pendant's +0, which is going to basically undo that major roll bonus you'd be getting from CHA. So if you're using a status you can get some decent outside boosts on and have luk roughly equivalent to the monsters, you're looking at a probability of succeeding those rolls in the ranges of 20 to 40%. Which for a build based on inflicting statuses seems fairly unacceptable.
Throw in the fact that BMs already have to max out both CHA and LUK and then choose between having a mainstat or dex for everyone's accuracy since the 250 stat cap update and it just gets even sadder. Can we please stop pushing half-baked updates and do this stuff when we've taken care of more pressing issues, like, say, balancing dex?

Yes, you can argue bosses don't make up "most" mobs, but they also make up the mobs who generally keep you from getting the rewards and/or finishing the quest. I don't know about you, but completing 95% of a quest doesn't feel like playing the whole game.
AQ  Post #: 18
2/12/2019 12:36:28   

Not so Fast! Returning hybrid beast warrior here, and I have something to say.
After getting back into the game last week (and accidentally switching to Neko subrace 'cause of a misclick), I found out how insanely fun (and somewhat broken) a bleed-build neko party is. Allow me to explain:
Ok, a little story first. After logging in for the first time since 2 years, my first act was visitting the Void to see if my skill had gotten rusty. Met the Void Queen and won despite being a sitting duck, chucking health potions constanly in SO armor and landing almost no hits on the final phase of the boss (bless your soul, my dear neko pet and guest, your stun lock saved me from utter defeat). Returner's luck, I know. Because the next 10 tries resulted in me dying, repeatedly, with the Void Queen getting over 500 bonus Dex (something that I didn't even notice during our first encounter)
And so, I visited many posts on the forum to see how to power up, and updated my inventory with various goodies (purple rain, essence orb) as well as training as a werewolf in order to get the most out of the purple rain's usage. At first, things were going well, stacking effects at the beginning of the battle was a bit tedious, but effective (I still lost to the Void Queen though). However...
...I visited the Neko's dojo... and didn't think twice before accepting the gift of the Neko. 2 hours spent training to be the top dog went down the drain, and worst of all, I only found posts on the forum praising Neko for "bleed and burn" build, which sounded slow and tedious. Well, I was wrong, Dead Wrong!
It was insanely Fun! I stacked around 120 charges for my Sol Neko armor, preparing my Neko pet and guest for the slaughter, and utterly Annihilate the Queen! Purple rain the first round, double damage for pet and guess using 40 charges and the 2 followers went down immediately. I spent the rest of the short fight stacking bleed attack with my fellow cats, and realize the Massive potential of this build: it is defenitely slower compared to pure damage ones, but it has a clear edge against tricky foes (for example, the ones that could halve your damage like bun-bit or Kibbles can be bled to death) due to its use of pet and guest as a damage dealing factor or status applier (once again, without the stun that my cats provided, I wouldn't have made it)
This build, it's fun, and I like it! There will be changes in the future, but saying that "Beast builds are dead" is just not right. It's harder, but defenitely still a super valid option.
Here's my char's page, in case anyone wants to see my inventory of pets and spells to summon guest: https://guardian.battleon.com/Build30/charview.asp?temp=84252653
Battle on!
AQ Epic  Post #: 19
2/12/2019 12:41:35   

^People are mainly arguing against the bosses. These recent changes have made things very difficult for beastmasters.
Post #: 20
2/12/2019 12:51:15   

Yep, it’s def dodging the problem. This made Poe/dun the only thing worth playing. Statuses are now pretty much useless and bosses will now only be killed with burst builds.. which is the problem. Burst builds are the problem, Shiba is completly right
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 21
2/12/2019 13:24:42   

I agree with @Shiba here, albeit using a different tone. Whilst the staff are clearly attempting to address a known issue, this is the wrong way to go about it. At the very least this should have been released with changes to DEX so that beast builds weren't hit as hard. On the other hand, I also think it was the wrong fix to begin with. If you wanted to limit nukes, what was the point in weakening soft damage cap? You could have kept the original formula, which severely limited damage output. That would have limited nukes without hurting beast builds.
AQ  Post #: 22
2/12/2019 13:42:59   

I think people are mistaking the effect for the cause here. This isn't some attempt to address unrelated items, the removal of the +/- cap is something long in coming. Every time the issue of not being able to get full benefit from your status boosting items because of the caps came up the response was "I really want to remove it some day". Well here we are, you can now stack your main +/- roll with the like of a pet or misc. You can easily get -20-20-20 on some setups now.

Where the issue is as people have mentioned, were does that leave the recent boss boost effect as it falls under the old +/- 20 rule(now gone). More specially where does that leave combination without the support of +60 to balance the boss out.

I am not going weigh too much into this but yes you shouldn't be beat over the head vs a normal boss if you don't have a bunch of boosting items while at the same time you shouldn't be able to do it to them either.

Something was changed and that means other aspects might need to be looked at again but the sky isn't falling just yet. This is the time for dialogue so yes discuss issues but lets not go blaming other random things and claim the world is on fire.

I will be leaving this is normal GD rather than GBI(could fit) as I see this as more of needing discussion rather than pure numbers alone. Lets keep the "me too" posts a minimum however.~afterlifex

< Message edited by afterlifex -- 2/12/2019 14:03:35 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
2/12/2019 14:17:07   
Aura Knight

But who wished to get it removed?
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 24
2/12/2019 14:33:19   

Are you asking what players or what staff? If you are meaning specifically that has nothing to do with the matter at hand and would be inappropriate to say.

If you are trying to speak from player base perspective the matter came up any time someone asked about statues effects rolls and stacking of boosts or any time a new status booster came out. It's something that been complained about* and a topic for a long time. The issues now is just one of conflicting updates and the need to adjustment.

*(by many of the people in this very topic in fact if I had to take a guess by who is here)

There are 3 main issues here:

How do you make status roll boosters have use together?

How do you make bosses not a cake walk?

Without either of the above punishing your normal player?

< Message edited by afterlifex -- 2/12/2019 14:42:33 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 25
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