Home  | Login  | Register  | Help  | Play 

RE: The death of Beastmasters

 
Logged in as: Guest
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [AdventureQuest] >> AdventureQuest General Discussion >> RE: The death of Beastmasters
Page 2 of 5<12345>
Forum Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
2/12/2019 15:17:07   
123456aq
Member

I mean maybe if we delt with the boosters which started the problem instead of walking around it avoiding it and trying to cater to the boosters. booster pets and guests should be removed for the health of the game because right now they just constantly anchor the entire game because well normal monsters have NEVER been a issue since 2014... statuses get nerfed into the ground outta nowhere "whelp now its booster pet or nothing because everything else got OBLITERATED... I dont even feel like playing the game because why would I? just nuke everything into nonexistence? I mean thats boring theres a reason ive always said hardcaps or nothing on bosses because this is what happens. the second statuses dont exist "whelp lets just nuke it clawback still doesnt mean anything"so we killed of entire builds for boosters? we tried balancing directly around them with Angel of Souls and that was a COMPLETE meme armor outside of poelalas. like ever since release we've just tried to balance towards them instead of against them they need to not exist for the health of the game! people bought them? whocares give a refund or another pack or packs or w/e. I find it just saddening that the only slightly engaging way to play was nuked off the face of the earth
Post #: 26
2/12/2019 15:38:58   
Caecus
Member

The 3 points ALX brings up are why I like challenge bosses (only if they offer additional titles not actually important in game items). With relatively little extra coding you get a decent solution for everyone.

The regular boss is fine for normal players and the challenge boss offers pride for the hardcore base. The regular boss could be just a normal monster with perhaps one or two gimmicks and high stats.

The challenge version could get things that really mess with the meta strategies and are thematically relevant. A boss boost, hard damage cap, player healing reduction, and freedom would make any monster a brutal challenge that required actual thought instead of simply stunning it forever, having an impenetrable shield, or blowing it up in one turn. Heck, despite not being updated in ages the wind essence is still immune to many "meta" strategies of defeating it. I remember the great strategies people were coming up with to beat the wicked king before kindred nukes made even the soft damage cap irrelevant. These are the types of bosses that frustrate players to begin with, inspire creativity as a reaction, and are actually memorable in the long run.

I think that's good (challenge) boss design. No (beatable) boss can ever be a real challenge to players unless it gets massive stat and effect advantages like those mentioned above. Players have near infinite options to buff themselves so a true boss must be able to be on level terms.

Now, if statuses are truly nerfed to the point that they are unusable against challenges bosses then that should be addressed but the idea that the hardest bosses shouldn't be a total pain to deal with doesn't really resonate with me. Honestly, I think the staff has done a good job resisting the temptation to just slap a boss boost on every end of quest foe. It seems mostly reserved for void challenges or higher and in those cases I say, fair play. It should take quite a bit of effort to have even a 10 percent chance of using certain statuses against certain monsters. I like that it's hard to stun monsters with high end or gain celerity against others. It makes the bosses feel more worthwhile. Beastmasters aren't killed by this update any more than booster mages/warriors were killed by the poe/dunamis nerfs or nukers would be killed by ironthorn being additive. It makes them work harder for their most broken abilities, that doesn't make them bad.
Post #: 27
2/12/2019 16:02:52   
CH4OT1C!
Member

quote:

@Afterlifex said:
How do you make status roll boosters have use together?
How do you make bosses not a cake walk?
Without either of the above punishing your normal player?

A simple bandaid to solve 2 of these issues (2 and 3) would be to revert the cap removal and the nerf of soft damage cap. Reverting it to it's original state would provide a strong limit to nukes if placed on a boss without weakening status rolls
AQ  Post #: 28
2/12/2019 16:07:08   
aq DarkKnight
Member

quote:

The challenge version could get things that really mess with the meta strategies and are thematically relevant. A boss boost, hard damage cap, player healing reduction, and freedom would make any monster a brutal challenge that required actual thought instead of simply stunning it forever, having an impenetrable shield, or blowing it up in one turn. Heck, despite not being updated in ages the wind essence is still immune to many "meta" strategies of defeating it. I remember the great strategies people were coming up with to beat the wicked king before kindred nukes made even the soft damage cap irrelevant. These are the types of bosses that frustrate players, to begin with, inspire creativity as a reaction, and are actually memorable in the long run.

That pretty much sums up everything I am going to said.
Post #: 29
2/12/2019 18:17:12   
Kilvakar
Member

@Caecus: Good points all around, and I agree with most of what you said. However, I do have to respectfully disagree with you on one point. With the combination of the status effect update and the stat cap increase, anything other than pure builds have been severely nerfed, and I would say crippled.

In the PSA: Dexterity thread, there has been some talk of this already. But basically, the staff want to change DEX because right now it's pretty much required for all builds, unlike any other stat, due to it being the main source of accuracy and defense. I know that the stat cap thing is unrelated to that, but the fact that the rolled out the cap increase without giving us more stat point effectively forces everyone to go with MainStat+DEX at 250 for maximum effectiveness. That only leaves one remaining stat to put points into, whereas before we could max out three and still have a fourth at 3/4 effectiveness. So yes, Beasmasters are now forced to go MainStat/DEX/CHA rather than MainStat/DEX/CHA+LUK or END for extra damage/initiative or survivability. So yes, Beastmasters have been severely nerfed. They now have no LUK, so they cannot go first and deal way less damage, and they can't even take the extra HP to make up for that fact. You can no longer play what was termed the "annihilator" build in the build guides at all. You could go FD Beastmaster, but you won't have the extra HP to help you with tanking. You could try to go MainStat/CHA/LUK, but you'll never hit anything and you won't be able to block anymore. So yes, all the Beastmaster builds have been ruined with these updates. This basically applies to all hybrids and pretty much any non-pure build at the moment.

In my humble and very respectful opinion, I really do think that the stat cap increase was a bad idea. At the very least, if they were planning on changing how stats work in general, they should have waited until they figured that out before changing how everyone has to play the game. To be fair, Kaelin seemed to be listening to feedback in the PSA thread, and even said at one point that they might balance the monsters without expecting everyone to have three stats at 250. But their explanations for why the staff did what they did boiled down to "we just think that three stats are better than four, no one liked that fourth stat anyway," and "Having three stats instead of four will somehow increase build options." I'm heavily paraphrasing here, of course. But you can go and read the thread to get the full view of the conversation. Needless to say, I strongly disagree with both of those points. Yes, booster pet players may have viewed having to pick CHA or END as a "dump stat" as annoying, but those "dump stats" were the reason builds like beastmasters were popular alternatives to booster builds in the first place.

I don't understand why that staff doesn't seem to get that the game does NOT need to be balanced entirely around the use of Poe/Dun/Thern! They're premium items, they're SUPPOSED to be powerful. Everyone complaining that the players who choose to use them kill stuff faster just needs to stop. As long as there are other viable, fun, and effective alternative builds out there, I DO NOT CARE if a Poe mage can kill something a turn or two faster than my BeastMage. The only time I can see such complaints becoming more valid are during wars, where booster builds dominate the top warmonger lists and everyone else wishes they could get those sweet rewards for the top 25. But that's another conversation entirely. I've played a BeastMage for a long time, and it is quite frustrating to see all these changes get rolled out seemingly with little thought as to what would actually happen as a result. IMR's statement of "Monsters often have 275 in a stat, and your 250 cap is closer to that now" seems to be the only explanation as to how the staff seemed to think that these changes would be good for the players. But what's actually happened is that only pure builds have been buffed, all other builds have been hamstrung.

So yes, all in all I do think that Beasmasters have been taken out of the picture for now, along with anything other than pure warrior/mage/ranger. I do think that the stat cap thing should be rolled back and a serious conversation take place on what type of changes would actually be good for the players. And I do think that if we bring these issues to the attention of the staff, they will listen and try to work things out for the best. 2018 was one of the best years in AQ history for staff/player cooperation, so I have faith that we can resolve this problem.
AQ  Post #: 30
2/12/2019 19:53:16   
toannghe1997
Member

@J9408 Yes, but what I'm saying is that beast builds shouldn't just focus solely on stacking the most status/bleed or even try to one-nuke a monster/boss to dead as we accepted that our build would never be able to nuke out damage like pure builds ever since we chose to level up our cha. Rather, we play as a beast master because we want to focus on dealing with a wide variety of situations instead: Enemies that can halve damage can be bled, glass canon can be nuked with sp skills while pet and guest apply status effect, or even turtling against a single element boss while companions heal loop, .... It certainly makes things more interesting than just bashing the attack button/spamming spells repeatedly then end the fight with a SP nuke.
AQ Epic  Post #: 31
2/12/2019 21:45:19   
123456aq
Member

right now boosters do better then damage pets while being omni elemental for the same cost AND its actual player damage so its immediately better. and thats the issue damage pets arent worth at all compared to them. like I have absolutely no reason to rely on damage pets when pet melee is so low that the damage MCs arent worth and guest MCs dont exist
Post #: 32
2/13/2019 5:39:18   
I Overlord I
Member

quote:

booster pets and guests should be removed for the health of the game

I realize that everyone is feeling extra emotional right now, but you genuinely need to relax. Especially as AQ isn't a PvP game and so "broken" items (especially those that have been nerfed multiple times already) consequently don't matter nearly as much. Furthermore, believe it or not, simply "removing" items people paid a not-unsubstantial sum of $50 for isn't an option.

< Message edited by I Overlord I -- 2/13/2019 13:18:59 >


_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
AQ  Post #: 33
2/13/2019 9:41:52   
J9408
Member

It would have been possible years ago when they were just introduced, but it is way too late now.
Post #: 34
2/13/2019 10:14:59   
Andlu
Member

Not like making them full CHA will work either, whenever DEX is kinda nerfed to the ground alongside END, most people will be running main stat + cha + luk
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 35
2/13/2019 12:33:25   
123456aq
Member

Andlu has a point but SOMETHING has to be done to weaken them or buff actual pet and guests
Post #: 36
2/13/2019 18:04:30   
Kilvakar
Member

I really don't think that we need to remove boosters from the game, and this is coming from someone who has never relied on them. I really don't have a problem with them being considered overpowered, either. Like I said earlier, as long as other builds are viable I don't have a problem if someone using a booster does more damage than a beastmaster build. While I agree it would be nice to see damage pets get a little stronger, pure damage pets not dealing quite as much damage as booster builds doesn't mean that beastmasters are inherently inferior to booster builds.

Again, the real issue beast builds are having right now is that they don't have enough stats to be as good all-around as pure builds anymore, thanks to the cap increase. And at the same time, status infliction has been nerfed, which was usually where beast builds stood out the most. So with those two factors combined, beast builds have indeed been severely weakened. It doesn't mean that booster pets are to blame or that they should be removed from the game. What actually needs to happen is that normal pets need to be improved a little, and we need to fix this stat cap and dexterity change issue.
AQ  Post #: 37
2/13/2019 19:42:22   
Kurtz96
Member

I am very against removing boosters, mainly because when people paid real money (and a not insignificant amount) it is generally not a good idea to just get rid of them.

For some reason whenever people see something broken in a game (fighting games, card games, RPG) they want to nerf it, instead would it not be better to buff weaker strategies? Think positive, not negative. Once I adopted this outlook on life, my days were a lot less stressed and angry.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 38
2/13/2019 20:45:41   
stratuscone
Member

quote:

whenever people see something broken in a game (fighting games, card games, RPG) they want to nerf it, instead would it not be better to buff weaker strategies?


that also has the unwanted side effect of a (steep) powercreep. either way, people always find a way to be dissatisfied about changes.

although in a non-competitive game like AQ, it's not really a problem. More play-able builds, the better!
AQ DF  Post #: 39
2/14/2019 0:06:56   
123456aq
Member

I mean i "paid money" for most of my pets my armors my pet enhancing weps miscs armors shields etc. imo "paid money" is a terrible argument like i have poes and a good bit of poemage stuff but i wouldnt be complaining if i got refunded 2 URs. Even if I wasnt I wouldnt sweat it because of how much better the game would be
Post #: 40
2/14/2019 1:20:26   
I Overlord I
Member

Sir, would you like some fries with that salt?

Likening non-premium in-game currency to real-world money is a terrible analogy, at any rate. Heck, you can theoretically get even the premium Poe/Dun/Thern guests (and Poe pet) for "free" (time investment notwithstanding); alternatively, you have no option but to dish out $50 for the Dun/Thern pets (and the non-Light ele. boosters). :/

< Message edited by I Overlord I -- 2/14/2019 1:35:09 >
AQ  Post #: 41
2/14/2019 1:26:57   
Aura Knight
Member

The suggestion to remove boosters will not help anyone. If will just make it so we're equally weak. Rather than remove boosters, changes can be made to make beast builds a bit stronger. Can't think of what could be done but it could be something as simple as Lucky Strikes for guests. Lucky strikes are not suppose to be relied on too often but those could certainly help. If we can do them and our pets can, why can't our guests?
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 42
2/14/2019 1:38:14   
Dante_Vulfuris
Member
 

I was under the impression that the boosters were worth REAL MONEY specifically because they were made to provide a substantial power boost. They have been nerfed several times already, and the notion of removing them is unwise, bordering on moronic.

And as for the game health...what 'game health'? Isn't AQ strictly a single-player mode? So what if a player wants to pay to make the game easy? What business is that of other players, who, again, aren't interacting with anyone directly? The worst thing that could happen is that pay-to-win players beat more monsters in wars. And what of that? Shouldn't paying customers get mote benefits than free players? It's the least the game could do to those funding it. And if that's still unfair, it shouldn't be too big a problem to set up brackets for war scores.

If AQ were a P v P, then we can talk about OP items. Otherwise, no. It's simple enough to make the game challenging again: move boosters into the storage vault and/or use gold-only items.

Leave the boosters alone.
Post #: 43
2/14/2019 1:50:57   
I Overlord I
Member

On that note, I find it humorous that most of the people who complain about the game being "too easy" have an inventory full of Champions sets. AQ isn't hard as long as you know what you're doing, but it's not a total cakewalk even then either. My Level ~65 Adventurer alts generally have a noticeably harder time beating even level-appropriate mooks. Refraining from using "OP'd" gear is entirely your prerogative -- just because you choose not to do so doesn't mean everyone else won't (or can't, if they're not as well off).

< Message edited by I Overlord I -- 2/14/2019 2:26:10 >
AQ  Post #: 44
2/14/2019 4:31:22   
CH4OT1C!
Member

Entirely removing boosters just won't happen. Flat-out won't happen. People paid (at least partially) for those items, the ramifications would be too massive.

@Dante-Vulfuris: The substantial power-boost does not exist because they cost real money. They are unbalanced. They were nerfed because they were overpowered. To be honest, they are still overpowered.
In relation to "game health", I don't believe that term refers solely to PVP. I think it refers also to the state of the player vs all foes, whether they be players or computer-generated. There are undoubtedly those entertained by winning against easy opponents. In that regard, we have plenty. However, there are others that enjoy the challenge. We have very few monsters that pose a real threat in AQ. Beating these monsters isn't a necessity. Challenge monsters are often locked in the void or behind an optional "challenge" fight in a quest. In this regard, both types of player win. So why standardise with balance? It makes things a lot easier in the long run. Having equipment and monsters to standards means that you can make a monster appropriately difficult (or easy) for everyone. Without that standardisation, you could make monsters impossible or a pushover depending on what build you choose to use. This is the problem associated with boosters. Even with several nerfs, boosters do not conform to standards. When an item doesn't fit that standard (ie is OP/UP) it makes things unnecessarily easy/difficult for that player because everything else is standardised. This is where OP/UP comes from.

Now, @Andlu brought up:
quote:

Not like making them full CHA will work either, whenever DEX is kinda nerfed to the ground alongside END, most people will be running main stat + cha + luk

This isn't strictly true. The problem with booster pets is twofold:
1) The boost is much higher for non-CHA users so why would they ever bother using pets?
2) The interaction between booster pets and other boosts applied to the player
Addressing 1), if it became a CHA pet, you wouldn't change the overall boost. However, only those with CHA (The appropriate build for pets) would be able to use it effectively. It wouldn't be better than any other pet for non-CHA builds, which is why going full CHA would work. However, 2) means that boost interacts with other effects. For example, it could interact with blood contract because you're boosting player damage by *1.2. Other pets do not get this effect, making booster pets more powerful than the equivalent.
AQ  Post #: 45
2/14/2019 5:03:17   
Andlu
Member

Actually making boosters be cha would indeed increase they damage. Not much but it would happen

Heck compare leprechan and chilly

Both do the same boosting but one is not mcd
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 46
2/14/2019 5:16:33   
stratuscone
Member

what if the boosters gave a flat boost, that does not interact with any other boost to the player?
AQ DF  Post #: 47
2/14/2019 5:33:52   
I Overlord I
Member

Boosters were literally just nerfed (after having been nerfed multiple times already). They really don't need another just because certain players can't handle the self-imposed restrictions they chose to put on themselves. After a certain point, I would much rather have a refund instead and I'm sure a lot of other players who've bought boosters feel the same way. False advertising (even if inadvertent) is a big no-no.

Of course, if CHA replaces DEX as the go-to secondary even for non-BM builds... Talk about a lose-lose. :|

< Message edited by I Overlord I -- 2/14/2019 5:39:05 >
AQ  Post #: 48
2/14/2019 5:59:21   
Slayne
Member

I still don't understand all the hate for dexterity. While I agree that it shouldn't affect pet/guest BtH & it should also have a bigger effect on ranged damage, but other than that just because some people want to run a dex-less build doesn't mean that everybody does.

IRL dex is a measure of physical/mental agility/quickness and as such it should play a large part in BtH, dodge & initiative for players.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 49
2/14/2019 7:20:23   
Dante_Vulfuris
Member
 

@CH4OT1C!

- They are also optional. Nobody's forcing players to buy them. You said it yourself, that some players enjoy a challenge. Nothing is stopping those players from not buying boosters, just like nothing is stopping them from not using boosters to face certain bosses/monsters. Just because those players want a harder game, doesn't mean the game has to be harder for everyone else, at least not to those who forked over real cash for boosters. And frankly, for a price tag of fifty bucks, they're not overpowered enough.

- If we're talking about standardization, such standards should have been tailored to what gold-only players have access to. If the game is too difficult for them, then they should be strengthened, as opposed to weakening everyone else.

- So what if the game becomes 'too easy' to booster-enhanced players? It was their decision to pay to win. As mentioned earlier, and several times now, even they have options to make the game challenging if they feel like it.

- The worst part of this, however, is what Overlord mentioned about 'false advertising', and I am in full agreement. Promising buyers one thing, and then screwing with their expectations after their purchase, well, that is a good way to lose customers.
Post #: 50
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [AdventureQuest] >> AdventureQuest General Discussion >> RE: The death of Beastmasters
Page 2 of 5<12345>
Jump to:



Advertisement




Icon Legend
New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Forum Content Copyright © 2018 Artix Entertainment, LLC.

"AdventureQuest", "DragonFable", "MechQuest", "EpicDuel", "BattleOn.com", "AdventureQuest Worlds", "Artix Entertainment"
and all game character names are either trademarks or registered trademarks of Artix Entertainment, LLC. All rights are reserved.
PRIVACY POLICY


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition