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Streamlining founder armor stats - why was it necessary?

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9/3/2011 6:07:57   
Rooster
Member

I'd like to discuss the necessity for streamlining the founder armor stats. I had initially posted this in a different thread, that appears to have been concerned with founder armor buffs. That thread was locked though as these buffs supposedly will never happen, making the discussion obsolete - although I recall Cinderella saying that they are considering it in a rather recent thread - I'll have to dig).

I want to thus emphasize that this threat is not aimed at discussion or promoting future founder armor buffs. It's sole reason is to discuss recent changes made to the founder armor stats that currently have a direct impact on the usability of this armor in game. Especially how these changes affect the mage founder armor.

I realize that my earlier post was placed in the wrong thread, and I want to start this discussion now by copying this post below.


Here it goes:

I'm seriously upset that my mage founder armor has been rendered useless. I've been a Mage from the beginning and only recently changed to TLM - I would love to change back, but it's getting more and more difficult if you want to be competitive.
I hear the reasoning from the devs that it is to "streamline" the armors, which allows for new armors to be added in the future. I just don't understand it. Can someone please explain to me why all founder armors need to have the same stats to allow the addition of new "mutating" armors? Does this also mean that any new "mutating" armor will need to have the same stats than founder? I think it's just a cop out. There is no logical reason for this to HAVE to be. It may be easier to have it that way, but there's no way it HAS to be. For example, I'm sure they could have just kept the mage founder armor as a separate armor from the other founder armors. That way, they would have to make changes at two place instead of one if they want to make changes to founder in the future, but I think that's a little price to pay for integrity.
I'm sure such a solution wouldn't have been a problem. This said, I've never programmed for Flash, so maybe it would have been, but given that there are different type of armors in the game, I doubt it.
Maybe someone with experience in this area can enlighten me (us) on this issue.

< Message edited by Rooster -- 9/3/2011 6:09:12 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
9/3/2011 6:28:01   
Wiseman
Member

The main reason the streamlining of the Founder Armor happened was to clean up the game code so that it would be easier to implement future releases related to class changing armors. When we found out that the Founder Armor could no longer have two separate stat distributions we naturally choose the majority over the minority. Mage stats where outnumbered 2/1 and that was the main factor that effected our decision. It may not have been the ideal solution, but it was the best one to keep the most players happy while presenting opportunity to move forward with the mutating item additions. Allowing two separate versions of the armor, both giving resistance, would have been a waste of a item slot for many players, and would have resulted in more complaints then we have now. I understand that some Mages are upset about this change, and I really wish that we could do something about it, however with the recent decision not to buff anymore rares, there really isn't much that can be done. It's a sad fact, but it looks like nothing will be done about this change, and I do apologize to the Mages that where effected by it in a negative way. I will however state, that having tested strength builds for Mage on multiple occasions I believe it is very possible to still be competitive utilizing a strength build with founder armor. If you have Tesla armor that is also an option as a possible replacement for the Founder Armor, with the only big loss being in the looks department.

That's about all I can say on the subject, keep in mind that the Developers are the ones that always make the final decisions on these matters, so there really isn't much the mods can do once the decisions are made.

Below: I'm not sure what you mean, the Dragon Weapons, being mutating items, are also stuck with the same stats for every class. The Founder Armor is now classified as a mutating item, so it does work in the same way as the Dragon Weapons.

So far there are 4 mutating items in the game.

The 2 new dragon items, Founder Armor, and the Beta Brutalizer (renamed beta primary).

< Message edited by Wiseman -- 9/3/2011 6:35:42 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
9/3/2011 6:30:15   
Xendran
Member

Why not just have the founder armor mutate the same way the dragon weapons do....?
Reasons not to do it: PR.
Reasons not to do it:




I'll have to get back to you guys on that one. can't think of any.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 3
9/3/2011 6:39:46   
Arcanis
Member

Actually thank you for that post Wiseman. You just nicely declared how does ED makes decisions-majority rules. And as majority of players are TLM nowadays,I really don't wonder anymore that balance isn't addressed yet
(all in order to keep the most players happy). Once again,thank you for that shred of light,now I'm absolutely sure that I will be spending my money elsewhere.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
9/3/2011 6:46:30   
Wiseman
Member

^ We do plan to nerf TLMs, very soon actually, and not all decisions are made based on the majority rule. However I was being honest when I said that the main deciding factor of the Founder Armor change was based on Majority. If you decide to consider that a "policy" of some sort, that's your decision, but I can assure you that your are incorrect about that assumption.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
9/3/2011 6:53:00   
Arcanis
Member

Judging by the past,that soon part might as well mean Christmas. But thats beside the point.
As far as your insuring me that I am wrong in my assumptions,I know you for almost 2 years now,and I know you're a smart person,so you tell me:
is it my fault that my faith in ED,developers and its future is at all time low? Historia est magistra vitae.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 6
9/3/2011 7:26:45   
Rooster
Member

@ Wiseman: Thank you for this explanation. I still don't understand though why the mage founder couldn't just have been kept separate (i.e. as a separate mutating rare) to the other two founder armors. Why is it imperative for future releases to keep them the same. I understand that it may be more convenient for the developers, but how much more work would it have actually been to keep the mage stats as they were. Insurmountable? Again, I don't understand Flash, maybe someone who does can explain it to me.

Btw, when was the decision taken to no longer buff any rares. Has this been announced and I missed it? Does this also apply to seasonal rares, and if so, does that mean we're getting uniques seasonal rares (Frostbane 2009, Frostbane 2010 etc. pp.). I currently don't like the sound of this, but I have to think about it. With the decision taken to not buff rares, have the devs considered skins instead? It may be vein, but I really want to keep wearing my founder armor. I have all the others - char page will tell - but I love my founder armor. The new ones are just so unattractive - that 's why I keep wearing Bunnies. It looks better than Tesla.

@ Xendran - I think that would be great.

AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
9/3/2011 7:38:09   
Wiseman
Member

^ There will be new seasonal rares in the future, I don't really have an answer for the "(2009) (2010)" or "skins" questions though.

I'm not entirely sure why the decision was made to merge all the founder armors into one armor, or the beta weapons for that matter. However I'm sure it was important, since Titan originally created the mutating item class specifically for merging those items, and then decided that new mutating items would be a cool addition to the game. :)

Basically this is a question that only Titan could answer, since I also don't have a lot of understanding of how the coding in flash works.

quote:

Btw, when was the decision taken to no longer buff any rares. Has this been announced and I missed it?


It was under discussion for a long time, but the decision was just made before this release, I did give a notice that way may end the buffing of rares a few days beforehand, however I wouldn't really call that an "announcement".

The announcement that I linked in the other thread is the first real announcement about the subject.

< Message edited by Wiseman -- 9/3/2011 7:42:25 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
9/3/2011 8:02:35   
Titan
Member

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to clarify the reason why the Founder Armor and Beta Gear changed a bit. This change was introduced for several important reasons for the long term benefit of the game!

Because Founder Armor is available for all classes and all genders and at 2 different levels ... there were 12 unique data records that defined all the armors. If you think about that, this means that every single player in the game must load 12x the necessary data to create a definition for what is basically 1 item.

The same was true for Beta Weapons. The Beta gear required several unique item definitions in the database and thus required all players to download several times the necessary data when the game begins.

Overall the long term performance of the game would be negatively impacted by continuing to add unnecessary records to the database.

Our solution was to build support for mutating items into the EpicDuel game engine over the last 2 weeks. We then used Founder Armor and Beta Gear as the first trials of the new system. To compensate for the fact that the stats were standardized, we improved the total number of stats on the items.

The other added benefit of this system was the ability to create specialty mutating items like the new Dragon weapons that behave like all three class specific weapons while only requiring a single database definition.

I hope this helps explain why we made this decision, and I appreciate your support as we always must keep game performance in mind.

thanks!
Epic  Post #: 9
9/3/2011 8:13:36   
Shadronica
Member

With all due respect we had no problem with our Founder armor and Beta weapons mutating so I fail to even see what your talking about Titan.

I found the change to my Tech mage founder armor disdainful particularly since you gave it the strength stats at a time when you were nerfing strength so I am having a very hard time understanding your explanation to be a plausible excuse.

So your also saying that the game performance comes before consideration of your customers? Game performance is of course warranted but so is customer satisfaction isn't it?

< Message edited by Shadronica -- 9/3/2011 8:20:07 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 10
9/3/2011 8:17:25   
Ubear
Member

Yeah thats great titan but... If you really wanted to make database space... Buff the useless old dragon weapons?
AQ Epic  Post #: 11
9/3/2011 8:19:54   
Dendavex
Member

Mods never listen they go by their own rules lets just face it
Epic  Post #: 12
9/3/2011 8:31:45   
Oba
Member

quote:

Mods never listen they go by their own rules lets just face it


+1

But seriously. Why? I've used Founder armor all the time, since its the only armor I had enhanced. A few days ago I changed to Mage and Founder armor became useless. So I had to enhance my Tesla armor, which I not really do like. I found it way better before this change. And as Shadronica said.
quote:

So your also saying that the game performance comes before consideration of your customers? Game performance is of course warranted but so is customer satisfaction isn't it?
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 13
9/3/2011 8:39:52   
Lord Nub
Member

@Shadronica,

You don't have to understand it. That's why Titans the programmer and your not. It obviously is a performance issue and I can sorta see how that would be an issue with absolutely no programming skills whatsoever.

Does it suck that the Techys get hurt more and more over and over again? Sure it does. I love my tech mage and until they do some massive overhaul with it, it's basically rendered useless. TaM is just the better option hands down considering this pro team of players they have set up, were incapable of seeing how placing two of the three abilities that classes revolve around into one class and leaving the rest out to dry would be a problem.

@The two above me,

Mods never listen? Wonder why. There's so many trolling comments they have to siphon through with absolutely no constructive ideas placed anywhere. Your basically saying this is what this clique wants, and if we don't get it were gonna CAPS LOCK RAGE!!!! How's that fair for anyone?



< Message edited by Lord Nub -- 9/3/2011 8:42:08 >
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
9/3/2011 9:03:02   
Shadronica
Member

Its hardly a performance issue Lord Nub because there was no issue at all with our Founder armor and Beta weapons mutating before.

No its simply a case of suck it up and buy new stuff. Buy Buy Buy. That is the only message I get from this game. Perhaps they could rename the game Monopoly Money Exchange.

Oh and btw ... constructive posts get overlooked here too so unless your a real brown nose or a walking advertisement for ED you won't even get looked at either.

< Message edited by Shadronica -- 9/3/2011 9:09:56 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 15
9/3/2011 9:14:17   
Wiseman
Member

I'm just going to make an announcement here.

Due to the valid points in the argument presented about the founder armor, it has been decided that there will be a compromise made.

This is not compensation and it is not a buff.

The stats for the founder armor will be readjusted to the numbers below.

5 Strength
7 Dexterity
5 Technology
10 Enhancements

This change is a fair trade off for both sides of the fence, it's a common ground that represents both versions of the old founder armor. We chose dex as the highest stat, because it was the one stat the two versions had in common. The other two stats where lowered to 5 because that would make the armor equal in both aspects that where class specific. This is a fair compromise between the two versions of the armor, and will be implemented in the next release. Since this is a completely fair compromise and there is no valid argument point that can be presented against it, all complaints about the issue will be ignored from this point forward.

See, things can happen without "compensation" or "buffs", it just requires a bit of thinking outside of the box.

< Message edited by Wiseman -- 9/3/2011 9:19:14 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 16
9/3/2011 9:24:42   
scott bernard
Member
 

 I have faced the way a game gets better that is it evolves, I like my founder armour as does everyone else the look but sometimes game progress is best for play, hey I am an alpha tester and used to fight for better upgrades for alpha weapons I still think they look cool but you will never see them in the future of the game as they become so underpowered I mean I'm willing to compramise at least take up the dmg of alpha weapons and founder armour to fit in with lvl 33 and beyond lvls if you don't want to hook up the stats its ok but +27 dmg compared to +34 dmg your not gonna see alpha weaps being used in this game ever again
Post #: 17
9/3/2011 9:25:59   
button33
Member

Nice solution. I guess it is fair that mages do get str and dex, along with a little str.
AQW Epic  Post #: 18
9/3/2011 9:26:46   
Fay Beeee
Member

Thank you wiseman. :)
I can feel a few rebuilds coming. lol


_____________________________
Epic  Post #: 19
9/3/2011 9:32:08   
roborapter1493
Member

Looks like founder's are coming back

_____________________________
DF  Post #: 20
9/3/2011 9:34:18   
Dendavex
Member

well done to the founders
Epic  Post #: 21
9/3/2011 9:34:33   
Shadronica
Member

I am so sorry scott bernard. I personally am saddened too that there just wasn't enough Alpha players to rally for the Alpha weapons to receive some tender loving care too. With any luck at all it would be my sincerest wish that Titan or Nightwraith or perhaps at least a kind moderator would see your post and consider.

Thank you to all the players who rallied to see the Founders armor survive for just a little longer.

Thank you to Titan and Nightwraith for reconsidering this contentious issue.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 22
9/3/2011 9:35:10   
Reki
Member

I understand the reasons completely for what the team did so hope it all goes good and really just cuz you guys like shadowslayer don't get it is no reason to dog titan, show some maturity please. Yes valid points were made about the stats for founder but there's more than one type of build for mages and such so its not all necessary to whine so much. Be glad the team works as hard as they do cuz I don't see you guys doin better...things can't please everyone but they try. You don't like it that much then quit, simple.

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 23
9/3/2011 9:48:45   
Lord Barrius
Member
 

 Since it seems that this thread was ruled primarily by high tempers and less with constructive thought, and since the issue has been dealt with now, I see no reason to let this go on.

Locked.
Post #: 24
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