We need to talk about farming, craft times, DC and player respect.


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We need to talk about farming, craft times, DC and player respect.

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5/6/2017 1:25:24

megakyle777
Member

Ok, I'm worried. In this release alone, I spent 2000 DC on shortcuts. A lot went on reducing insane craft times. Amnd the reward at the end of my DC was so not worth it.

And you know what? I don't feel good about it. I feel insulted. I feel annoyed. I feel mad as all get out. I feel FORCED to buy this stuff. I feel like everything was padded out just to make money. And above all else I hate having that feeling about a AE game.

We need to talk. About player respect. About FUN. about craft time, farming for items (IN A BETA NO LESS), about DC and about our money's worth. Which is why I am making this topic.

I'm really, REALLY mad right now, so I'm going to let others tackle this topic. I'm just going to make the thread.

For the record, I would much rather spend a ton of DC (And I gladly mean a ton right now) on cutting out shortcuts forever (Buy acess to a gold potion shop, buy Perm XP/gold boosts, DEFINALT cut out wait times forever) then be nickled and dimed each damm day I play this game. IT DOES NOT FEEL FUN TO ME. AND I'M DAMM SURE I WOULD SAVE MONEY IN THE LONG RUN.

Take it away other people. I'm too mad to.

< Message edited by megakyle777 -- 5/6/2017 1:27:04 >

Post #: 1

5/6/2017 1:32:34

Retrosaur
Member

Warframe is like this and you just have to have patience. There is no rushing for me because one way or another I'll grind my way to getting whatever it is. Rushing anything leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it feels I took the easy way out, and for me accomplishment only comes around from actually grinding it out. Think Void Highlord in AQW where the only way to get the item is to go through the normal grind.

Remember, you are deciding if you want to rush, and I feel you may be in the minority because I have never felt "pressured" to rush anything. Having played Warframe for years I don't mind waiting a few days for something to craft or something to build that I can enjoy later -- it lets me progress through the game a bit slower and have more time to enjoy other content as well.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 2

5/6/2017 2:02:21

Loftyz
Member

You can play the whole game for free. The only wait times are for creating items, which you shouldn't really need immediately, since the gear is only slightly better than whatever came before it. The Crimson Staff has horrible defence/health bonus, and the Furnace Hammer is a much better weapon unless you only want max Attack for quick Shadowskull runs.

But with all that said, I'd much rather have 1 six hour craft, rather than 66 six minute crafts.

AQW

Post #: 3

5/6/2017 5:00:38

Physik
Member

Before you spend you can see the item stats and preview the item cosmetically so it's not AE's fault if you're dissatisfied with your purchase.

They should allow you to queue your crafts so you're not forced to AFK at 6 minute intervals but as far as the craft times go, I reckon they're completely fair as these items are more for the novelty and grind than being necessary to progress.

Post #: 4

5/6/2017 5:21:02

megakyle777
Member

I'm going to do the math here for a moment to throw things into light here:

Each Shard costs 25 DC to speed up. That's 100 DC for 4. You need 66 of these. that is a total of 1550 DC. Then you need to pay about 100 to make the greater shard, and another 100 for the scroll, and then 250 to make the staff, and THEN when the grind is over anotther 250 for the final product. (Which does not even keep the Abyss open when done by the way.) If you are impatient, or feel forced to do it because it's too much of a grind ALREADY like me, (And I assure you I will not be the only one) that comes to a grand total of 2250 for one staff. WHICH IS NOT EVEN A GOOD STAFF. And then there is the bombs. And the other long craft times. Adnd don't even get me started on the 750 DC EACH for the star swords (WHich I aknolwedge as a cosmetic but that is 1500 for 2 swords!)

It's insane. It's absolutly insane and I do not feel good about ANY of it. I estimate I've spent over 3000 DC on this release and all I have to show for it is a staff.

I might be in the minority but I assure you I'm not alone. This will be a issue. Kids will feel pressured into buying for the latest item. People who find it hard to control themselves will feel the pressure on themselves. This is a bad thing. Plan and simple. And it makes me worry for AE.

We need to talk about this.

I've been here since before Mechquest was a thing. I love AE games. But this direction for AQ3D and the company as a whole legitimately terrifies me. I kickstarted this game and tbh I'm regretting it more and more each day.

< Message edited by megakyle777 -- 5/6/2017 5:35:23 >

Post #: 5

5/6/2017 13:02:52

Retrosaur
Member

Your whole post reeks of entitlement. AE, at the very least, doesn't gate content behind "gems only" and non gems only -- starswords are purely cosmetic and offer no stat bonuses, so what's the issue with selling them for gems? Do you really naively believe the world is built on sunshine and promises? At the very least Artix and co have to produce revenue to pay his employees and himself -- and no amount of Guardian packages and Kickstarter funds can perpetually keep that chain running.

At the end of the day, I can't sympathize or empathize with you. You made the decision to rush every single craft -- when there is absolutely nothing in the game forcing you to be "number 1 to get it". I don't understand exactly why it's worth rushing it -- is there some sort of competition I'm unaware of? Or are you simply hoping to inflate your ego by having it before everyone else gets a chance to normally grind it out?

AQW

Epic

Post #: 6

5/6/2017 13:07:30

Aura Knight
Member

I'm assuming you can take your time with these craft things. I haven't played this game but the more I hear about it, the less interested I am in doing so. There's probably no need to rush these things unless these craft items are available for a limited time, and even then I would think it won't take too long. But like I said, I've not played the game, so I know nearly nothing about how things work. If there is a problem, it's no question I'd be in support of a change to make things better, but it seems this issue is more of a personal one than anything else.

AQW

Post #: 7

5/6/2017 13:36:26

Retrosaur
Member

I see people here thinking AE craft times are terrible but they haven't seen Warframe, or even worse, any generic Korean MMO. Gating content behind time isn't really an issue unless players really expect to have all the freshly released content on Day 1, and it helps to slow down the pace of the game. Just like in AQW, I don't whine just because I have to grind 15 Elephant's Bloods for VHL, even though that's two weeks. For me I already have a good set of solo'ing classes and really, the "end game VHL da best" is just an afterthought.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 8

5/6/2017 15:11:25

GODMARIN
Member

well let me put it all this way...

this game has wait times like most if not all! micro transaction games,
it has "pay your way" options, i don't see it being a pay to win in the end, but you never know,
it's still pretty new(at least to me it is).
if you do not pay, you must wait your turn(Pay Or Wait).

i don't mind the waits that are 2 hours, maybe even 3 hours, as there is not much to the game to get,
tends to be the current end items that im about to get, so waiting is not all that bad,
i still spent most of my 15k DC on crafting times(besides potions, which is an issue all on it's own).

But!, i do wish there were no wait times, and that there were more ingame currency related items(potions, event items like the light caber blades...etc).
but this stuff is just information from a player, it holds no ground until the majority decide to state the same, soooo i guess...

State what you need to state, let others state their opinion and why, and what comes from it, will be...."what ever"

Post #: 9

5/6/2017 15:34:30

Vypie
Member

'World of Warcraft', for example, just gated and slowed the content by making some items obtainable from doing dailys, dungeons and raids.

But it's just a prettier way to have timers, while in this game.... it is right in your face. Daily content just hides it in a way that you may not notice.
Other than dungeon keys, we do not really have any daily content (but this can be a good thing too).

In practice, you still have to wait 24 hours each time to earn some special currency that takes a total of... let's say 1 week or 1 month. And raids are once per week, and that week you most likely don't get any drop for you.
Items take very long to obtain, but you don't feel like you are waiting that much, maybe because you are not required to be GRINDING all the time.
Because it locks you from even progressing each day, you have no option but to HAVE a break from farming those items. In turn, It makes you less bored from repeating the same stuff 100 times in a row. It allows to to take breaks.
But it also feels BAD if you happen to miss a day, because you will fall behind.

This game, on the other hand, allows you to keep playing continuously, so you can really blaze through it! But then the content would be over really quickly, that's why the timers are there. The game needs something to pace it out. Maybe it just needs to be more subtle about it.
Here you don't feel the need to play every day if you don't want, that's nice!

I don't really have any solutions to this problem, but I can say that timers can be good when/where they are used right. If they are, then they don't feel like a hassle, and more like part of the game itself.
Then spending DC might end up feeling different: more like a positive reward that feels good, rather than a cost to reduce/eliminate something negative.

Remember, the crafting times are not there just to try and get money from you. It's to pace the game a bit too. In World of Warcraft you don't even have that option, and it is already a payed game!

< Message edited by Vypie -- 5/6/2017 15:36:08 >

Epic	Post #: 10

5/7/2017 10:50:17

XeNON_54
Member

The staff is actually pretty good.
And by good I meant THE BEST.

15 points of Attack MORE than the Hammer PLUS 10% CRIT AND CRIT POWER.
It's a freakin' BEAST!!!

No wonder it's classified as a NULGATH Item.
It shouldn't even be a BLUE item. It should be a PURPLE item. Heck, maybe even ORANGE.

Post #: 11

5/7/2017 12:01:00

Vypie
Member

What I find weird about the Staff grinding, is that you have to consume your teleportation staff to craft it.

if you want it again, you have to spend loads of time and gold to farm it once more.

It doesn't seem very... sane.. to repeat the same grinding.

Epic	Post #: 12

5/8/2017 1:35:05

megakyle777
Member

Look, clearly people do not agree with me, so I'm going to level with you all.

The reason why I made this thread was because I, personally, felt forced into doing all of this. I felt like I had to speed up craft time, like I had to buy the bombs and other stuff. I'm aware I am probably in the minority, but I assure you I will not be alone. I feel as though these mechanics were not designed to be fun but to force me to drain my wallet, and it's working. crafting is not fun. Waiting for long times is not fun. It feels, to me, like if I want any kind of fun I've got to pay, and then I feel like crap abo.ut it because it's not fun. I feel like I need to own everything despite the fact I KNOW I cannot. I feel compelled, addicted, to getting everything as soon as possible and that means paying.

At this point, I'm not having fun. I feel forced.

DF	Post #: 13

5/8/2017 3:07:51

Retrosaur
Member

Can you better explain why you feel forced? What external factor caused you to feel like you were "forced" to get the staff? There's no enemies in-game that really require the xtra few attack points so i'm a bit confused why you still feel like you were forced to do it

AQW

Epic

Post #: 14

5/8/2017 8:44:49

XeNON_54
Member

You don't even really NEED the staff to go to VoidHall.
Just use /join command.

@megakyle777
I think the REASON you FEEL forced is because you feel like crafting shops are the same as Merge Shops from AQW.
Well it's NOT.

Just take things SLOW. You don't NEED to speed it up all the time. IT'S NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

Though there really should be a queuing system implemented in it since we have to craft all these reagents one after another and they are all taking up valuable space in our inventories.

< Message edited by XeNON_54 -- 5/8/2017 8:51:15 >

Post #: 15

5/8/2017 12:44:40

Vypie
Member

The reason megakyle777 felt forced could not be because of that at all.
For example, some people just have their brains wired in a way that addiction behavior is more probable to happen. It relates to dopamine imbalances in the brain, and people with this problem have a harder time avoiding addicting things.
They must be extra careful to not fall into spending issues, drinking addiction, etc, and when they start, it's harder to stop than normal.

Sad thing, some games take advantage over people by making their micro-transactions in a way that eases people with addiction problems to spend continuously.
They're basically their cash targets, or "Whales". And most of their profit comes from those people alone (over 90% of profits, if I remember).

Things like timers are some part of the problem, since it's the difference between 'instant' or 'delayed' gratification. It's perhaps more difficult if you have dopamine imbalances.

Epic	Post #: 16

5/8/2017 14:44:53

chisagen
Member

I personally do not mind the timers. You are not forced to spend your DCs to speed up the process, it's just a choice that everyone can make if they wish to.

As for now, it helps lengthen out the playtime of the game before the next release. (Can you imagine if we could get everything in an hour and had to wait another two months for the next release?)

It gives you time to do other things in the meanwhile like farm gold (Those craft items are not cheap

), hang out with friends, farm a boss or two.

_____________________________

AQW

Post #: 17

5/8/2017 16:32:47

Retrosaur
Member

Agree with both chisagen and Vypie. This is no different than a person with a gambling addiction claiming they feel forced by a casino to gamble. It is impulsive for them only because they are wired that way, but for most of us the issue is nonexistent because we think a bit more rationally. There is no figurative gun being pointed at our heads -- if anything, the hand holding the gun is from the same person aiming at himself. AE is not forcing OP to grind it, but he himself is forcing himself

AQW

Epic

Post #: 18

5/8/2017 20:19:39

orc orc orc
Member

quote:

I see people here thinking AE craft times are terrible but they haven't seen Warframe, or even worse, any generic Korean MMO.

Imo, even if worse examples exist, that does not mean AQ3D's waiting times aren't bad either. Just because other games have similar practices, does it mean AQ3D has to get away with it?

I still think there needs to be something done with the waiting times.

Here's a post I made in another thread, partly because I have limited time right now.

quote:

I get it, Dragon Crystals, besides their significance in getting cosmetic items, are used mainly for convenience's sake. And AQ3D is a free-to-play game with a financially struggling company at its helm, so I do understand the use of micro-currency. However, I do not think our enjoyment needs to be sacrificed in order to pave a way for Dragon Crystals.

The thing about Dragon Crystals is that they are not necessary to acquire the best stats in the game, but are they really not? Most purple items may seem to not have DC options, but given that their craft resources and the dungeons involved in crafting have DC shortcuts, they technically do. The process of waiting 3 hours just for a single dungeon key, or having to wait 6 minutes for a single craft resource, when dozens, if not hundreds, dungeon runs or craft resources respectively are required can get incredibly tedious and repetitive. Not everyone, even dedicated players, are always willing to go through that. Consequently, we may be pressured to buy Dragon Crystals just to enjoy the game. That's also the time some would quit the game.

In my opinion, waiting times are an easily-exploitable system to make a buck off us. I'm sure AE isn't malicious to be exploiting waiting times and I believe they need to be balanced. Some may argue that an epic item isn't meant to be farmed in a day, but the game is only in Beta right now, and with merely 17 levels we should not be getting endgame items. Additionally, waiting times do nothing to add challenge to farming, but rather make them more time-consuming. I'm not saying waiting times are an entirely bad thing; when done right, they can be a useful tool to prevent unhealthy levels of gameplay. But when tiny portions of farming are divided by long waiting times, that is when the farming becomes no longer enjoyable and we may be pressured to buy Dragon Crystals.

Possible improvements to this issue include decreasing waiting times for dungeon keys and allowing us to craft more than one crafting resource at a time. Another solution is to decrease the general number of requirements of a crafting item and increase the difficulty in getting them. That way, the item still remains a challenge to earn and we are not required to wait as many hours to get their resources. Crafting items already have hefty waiting times to begin with, so it is not necessarily to give their resources large time requirements as well. And with the rise of cosmetic equips, I do not think the value of Dragon Crystals would be heavily compromised.

In conclusion, waiting times need to be revised. If a farming process is lengthy, they should only divide them into few sessions, not mince them into tiny segments divided by hours of waiting. They should be a useful limit, not a way to force money off us.

I do acknowledge that Dragon Crystal shortcuts are OPTIONAL. But I am also concerned about this fact being potentially abused. Granted, the more notorious items are not exactly mandatory statwise (some even cosmetic), though I fear if the future of crafting centers around repetitive waiting times more so than actual gameplay. And imo, some of the top items such as the Scale Slayer are already requiring us to wait several minutes to craft a single resource, which a handful of them are required; they are nowhere close to Void staff in terms of requirements but they can still get tiresome. There's nobody forcing us to buy Dragon Crystals, and that's exactly the point. Some of us would just quit the game if we cannot enjoy it.

I have listed a few possible improvements that can be made. I like the idea of having to craft multiple of the same item at once, possibly stacking the waiting times in the process to balance it out. I would much rather wait 6 hours to get the required resources as opposed to crafting one at a time every 6 minutes within the same time span. Even if I play at my own pace, something that's repetitive and tedious is still repetitive and tedious. I believe that this change can mitigate some of the monotony in this game.

< Message edited by orc orc orc -- 5/8/2017 20:38:10 >

Post #: 19

5/9/2017 5:26:36

Roaros
Member

OMG. IF you dont like the wait times, pay for it with RL money(aka DC). If you dont like buying DC, guess what? *DONT* AND WAIT. So many special snowflakes wanting everything for free and wanting it NOW NOW NOW GO GO GO HURRY HURRY HURRY FASTER FASTER FASTER!!!!!!!!1! I havent spent a SINGLE DC POINT on this staff and Im almost done having played in my spare time as I go to school fulltime, have a fulltime job, a wife, a son AND another part time job on Sundays. Get over yourselves and HAVE SOME PATIENCE FOR GOD'S SAKE is all I can say.

That said, I dont feel pressured to BUY anything and I never have. Do I buy things? Yes, but the big difference is I do so when I want to, knowing full well i just payed RL money for that. The Star Swords for 750DC? Sure! bought both! Awesome! I didnt *NEED* to. I just love Star Wars, so I did. Well worth it! There is literally NOTHING in the game that requires you to buy DC points. Literally. Nothing. And frankly I feel better giving my money to AE than say Blizzard or some other megalithic company. What AE is doing is truly groundbreaking IMO. I really like the personal touches and personality the staff has. Its clear to me they do indeed care about us and what we think. So many good things happening all the time. All I have to say is BATTLEON!!

Post #: 20

5/11/2017 1:00:31

Shiny_Underpants
Member

quote:

~original: @Retrosaur
Your whole post reeks of entitlement.[...] Do you really naively believe the world is built on sunshine and promises?

This is a game. It's not the real world, and a game, like any art, is paid for with the promise of the experience it will bring.
This is not work, and I see no reason why you believe it should feel like work for a paying customer.

We all have the right to feedback. Unfortunately, if the game is based on feedback from supercilious players who clearly have too much free time, it will be imbalanced.
There is no financial benefit from giving a small number of players special treatment because they show the most 'devotion'.
Why not reward players who show devotion to their job, and use the game to relax? A far larger number of your players will fit in this category.

quote:

~original: @Vypie
The reason megakyle777 felt forced could not be because of that at all.
For example, some people just have their brains wired in a way that addiction behavior is more probable to happen.

Well, that's what the gambling industry takes pains to convince you of. It's the good old 'it's not the product that's at fault, it's the users'.
But the game is structured around making people pay money. If you've seen what Cysero posts, when faced with complaints about the time taken to complete basic tasks, he often waxes lyrical about the game needing to make money. Player respect?
Regardless of your theory about 'addictive personalities', kids are always far more susceptible to such behaviors, and it disturbs me that the company are basing their profits around targeting that type of advertising to kids.

And in case anyone is wondering, yes, that also opens them up to the possibility of legal action against them on those grounds.

In any case, @megakyle777 was predisposed to pay for the game to support AE. Leave (inaccurate) personal insults out of it.

The bottom line is that a game that takes several hours to make a single tiny progression is a low quality game. If the playerbase are obsessed with these ideas of 'devotion', it will skew the game away from a large market, and towards the short term bonus of hordes of cash from their existing, 'devoted' fanbase.

The Smurfs Village only had optional purchases. The supposedly optional nature of them is not an argument.

I'm not going to play a game that takes all my free time to go nowhere; why bother, when I can play a better game, one that actually has some content?
I'm not going to compare the grind to some other, worse game to justify it; I'm going to compare it to the best game, which would clearly be the best use of my time.
And at the moment, reading a dictionary is more engaging than AQ3D without DCs.

Post #: 21

5/11/2017 3:13:48

Loftyz
Member

quote:

But the game is structured around making people pay money. If you've seen what Cysero posts, when faced with complaints about the time taken to complete basic tasks, he often waxes lyrical about the game needing to make money. Player respect?

They do have to make money. Cysero can either say that, or choose not to say that, but neither of those choices will change the reality that salaries and profits have to come from somewhere. But if you think AQ3D's practices are like really bad and disrespectful, then you haven't played many MMOs.

When you get into the meat of free-to-play MMOs, you'll see downright predatory money-making tactics against the consumers at every level of the gameplay. These are the kinds of games where every stat on your character comes from 30 different sources, all of which have to be min-maxed. Your gear has to be upgraded by merging it with 31 pieces of the same gear, and fortified to +20 in an RNG system where $ consumables lessen the failure rate. And congratulations, you have a set of level 70 PvE armour. Now do the same for a set of PvP armour. Oh whoops, Level 73 armour is here; bad luck. Compared to all that, what does $ in AQ3D buy? Just a couple hours saved (even though you can do something else during any wait-time. even sleeping), and buys some cosmetics.

When I'm looking at the steam stats for AQ3D, the median playtimes are looking a bit disastrous, but at least there are many players logging consistently-high weekly playtimes (prime opportunity for "whale" targeted spending model), but it doesn't look like AE wants to target them with any game-altering microtransactions. So unless the mobile player statistics are doing well, I just don't see where the consistent stream of revenue is.

AQW

Post #: 22

5/11/2017 9:06:18

Vypie
Member

quote:

Well, that's what the gambling industry takes pains to convince you of. It's the good old 'it's not the product that's at fault, it's the users'.

The direction I was taking this was that actually, care and responsibility should be taken into the ones who MAKE product, to avoid potentially exploiting people with such problems of addiction. The product is at fault if they take advantage of it.

quote:

Regardless of your theory about 'addictive personalities'

Chemical imbalances, not "personalities". It's not a theory either. I hope you are not ignorant as to assume mental health problems do not exist.

Epic	Post #: 23

5/11/2017 9:26:40

megakyle777
Member

Shiny Underpants, Vypie: I think you guys are both on the same page reading it regarding the matter, it's just the posts came off poorly worded and convinced you both the other was wrong.

As for me, all I can say is what I feel. I feel as though buying the stuff was something I needed to do, I feel as though I did not really get anything good out of it, I DON'T think AE are doing it on purpose (At least I pray to all the gods they are not), but I do think it's a dangerious system that needs work to prevent this sort of thing happening like it did to me. Like I said I do not think I will be the only one this happens to and it's best to discuss it now while the game is in it's infancy then later.

DF	Post #: 24

5/11/2017 10:34:56

Aura Knight
Member

If you felt that buying stuff was something you needed to do, why complain about it after the fact? AE games are free to play with options to pay for extra features. The thing you're complaining about is an extra feature. You can either spend time or money in the game. I don't understand why the cheaper route wasn't the one you went with. I don't think there's anything gained from rushing to get things. I suppose I can understand if the thing you want is available for a limited time but even then, it's likely not worth it. The game's still new and not even that great, so why waste money on something that needs to be better? If the quality of the game were comparable to the top mmo games then perhaps I'd change my opinion, but I don't believe it is now. The decision to make purchases was your own. No use blaming the game when it's the player's impulsive actions that's at fault.

AQW

Post #: 25

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