RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (Full Version)

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Firefly -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (6/24/2010 1:06:16)

Now, really, I wonder if most authors /do/ like grey. Published fiction is, for the most part, still leaning on black and white with grey sprinkled in between. (Anti-heroes are common. However, anti-villains are not, especially not as main villains). The grey is usually in minor characters. Now, if the main good guys /and/ the main bad guys were both different shades of grey, that would be a lot more interesting. But it seems that those who try find it hard to succeed, and those that suceed are unwilling to try it. Admittedly, grey is much harder to pull off. Not all attempts really shine through.

Of course, I've got no clue about how successful I am with my "spectrum" of morality. However, as it plays a /huge/ role in my stories (and isn't just some offhand flavour), I'll speak a bit about why I do it. Can't speak for anyone else, of course.

Part of it is the age-old "realism" thing; I believe that, in reality, there is light grey, dark grey, and black (and yes, even white, though that's really hard to come by). Therefore, it's present in my stories. However, I do not want to simply reflect reality. I want to amplify it. I want to portray characters who are simultaneously compelling and despicable. I find that character are more complex when they cover the entire spectrum of morality, rather than just occupying either ends. This is partially due to my own experience as a reader, when I often found myself wondering, Whose story is not being told? That's why I sometimes cheer for the villains, if only because the author callously paints them in a black light not with actions but with portrayal.

Every character matters to me, and they're a lot more fun to write if they were all three-dimensional and complex.

Also makes them more fun to torture. ^_^ What's not fun about wringing some angst out of the local evil overlord, and temporarily having the audience see where they're coming from? =P

Also, my theory is that the main heroes and villains should at least remain /as/ complex as minor characters (more so is preferable). I favour having "light grey" protagonists and "dark grey" main villains, leaving the few bits of black and white to minor characters. Most stuff is the opposite way around (Good heroes, Evil villains, a few grey side characters), which creates a neat divide that's not to my tastes.




mastin2 -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (6/29/2010 6:02:07)

Bah, you and your silly moralities. Good, Evil, all the same to me. :P


...In a slightly more...normal...tone, generally, I hate Black-and-White. Instead, I prefer to balance it out a little. Even my most heroic characters have flaws. (Well, naturally. If the character has now flaws, they'd most likely be a Mary Sue. I mean, flaws relating to moralities.) Maybe they won't save the villain from falling? I mean, it's certainly not evil, but letting someone die when you have the capability to save them? Definitely not 'heroic'. (Naturally, most situations like this have it so that the evil can't be spared. If sparing the villain dooms the world to death, I'd think I'd let the villain die, thank you very much. However, in situations where they probably wouldn't be that much of a harm? That's boarderline anti-hero already.) A darker shade is to flat-out kill the villain. (This at least earns you a light gray.) Most of my characters tend to have more significant flaws, though, which place them further down the list. Perhaps still of a silver-gray color, but certainly not the shining white cliche.

And my villains tend to be the same way. They're not evil for the evulz. (...Well...MOST of them.) They have a reason to be villainous. Perhaps not a noble reason (Well-Intentioned Extremist), but a justifiable reason. Currently, I can think of two stories of mine with villainous protagonists. (Oh, wait, thought of a third, but it's similar to the other two.) In one, he's got reasons for being evil. (For starters, it's more fun--only got one life to live; might as well enjoy it-type stuff. His history also led him to that path.) But circumstances also leave him looking more heroic. (He's trying to save the world [because if it was destroyed, he'd die, and he wants to live, of course], from a worse evil, and he tends to be fairly honorable...within reason. Honor Before Reason sounds like an idiotic idea to him.)
The other one lives in a world where there IS no good; merely, different shades of evil. Heck, his goal is to rule the world. (Not very heroic, is it?) He's got redeeming aspects (pretty much the same ones as the above--little things which seem somewhat heroic), but really, the main reason he's the "good guy" is because he's toppling a guy worse than him.

For antagonists, I tend to explain their motivations near the end. (I like final battle verbal spars.) For example, I can think of a few stories where the antagonists are simply using twisted versions of the protagonist's beliefs (or old beliefs). And they're right, technically, in what they're doing fulfilling what the protagonist once believed in. (It actually works really well. If you learn someone's doing exactly what you have done...only darker...you're probably going to hesitate. Maybe only for an instant, but that's still dangerous.) Pretty much the closest my antagonists get to having a 'for the evulz'-mentality is when they're doing it for the power. Money, wealth, that kind of thing, feeding off of corruption. Very blackened gray, but still not pure black.

A good number are Well-Intentioned Extremists (Neutral-Gray to Dark-Gray), and then there are those who actually have had a tragic life. They've been traumatized, twisted and corrupted into believing what they do, doing what they felt they should be doing. Was it correct to do? Not according to the protagonists, but it doesn't change the fact that they were still wounded. Anti-Heroes, Anti-Villains, etc. I mean, my stories go from pure-fantasy to close-as-I-can-get-to-reality. Things change. Tragedy happens on both sides, divisions exist. No matter the character's philosophy, it will always be brought into question at least once (this goes for ALL characters, villain, hero, somewhere in the middle...), because life is complicated that way. Heel-Face and Face-Heel Turns (sorry, TVTropes addict) happen for a reason.

Of course, it doesn't stop my characters from declaring one side good or evil. I mean, what they think and the reality can be quite different. Or, they can acknowledge what they're supposed to be, and recognize how they're not quite up to standard. I use the words "good" and "evil" in my stories a lot, because it's how my characters view things--but the definitions of those words varies to the point where I, myself would never call any of my characters pure evil or good.

Shades of Grey, I suppose (I've done full rambles as to how many shades there are!), are my specialty. Lots and LOTS of shades of grey, tons of them all over the spectrum! :P

(Slight Note--It should be noted that most of my stories had far lighter protagonists before I read Heart of the Dark. :P)




jerenda -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (7/3/2010 1:22:03)

Well... in my current roleplay (yes, I'm bringing RPing into a writing thread) I made Belladonna, my most innocent, adorable, kind, loving character evil. And then she met up with a condemned creature of the Black Abyss (ok, I'm exaggerating a little) and befriended it. Now, as we go about destroying the world, we're having random moments of incurable cute where everyone melts a little and wonders whether it's really worth it to try and stop us. Muahahahaha!

So, I guess I'm more than a little grey.

...What was the subject again? Good or evil main characters... hmm. I'm trying to think of something to say that isn't story-specific. I like good characters. They don't have to be perfect, but they try to do the right thing. Sometimes they have bad information, or they're in a tight spot and so what, to them, seems to be right is actually terribly wrong, and so they end up doing the exact opposite of what they should be doing. I believe there's always right and wrong, and my characters tend to recognize this, even if they're completely depraved. Okay, I'm not Mastin or Flight and I'm really tired so that's all I have to say right now. ^_^




Firefly -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (7/4/2010 19:42:28)

So I'm to blame for your cynicism, Mastin? =P

The thing you mentioned, Jer, is very interesting. About always trying to do the right thing. But that does not always make one good. If so, then all my main villains are technically good, because they all do what they believe is right. (I have only a handful of characters in all my stories who genuinely like being evil). And sometimes, there really was nothing better they could've done. But does any of that excuse their actions? (It certainly explains something, but it doesn't absolve them...)

By contrast, doing something evil even though you know it's evil doesn't automatically equal irredeemable. What if doing something evil was the only way to prevent a disaster? Right and wrong always that clear-cut for me. The two classic demonstrations are killing someone who would be a danger to others (usually done by a hero) and killing a small number to save many (usually done by a villain).




Jae10 -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (5/26/2011 1:45:10)

I believe that what makes a story better or more engrossing is not necessarily restricted to just having the characters, but rather, how they deal with the circumstances writers put them in. That may be a reason why most writers usually become bored of writing with main characters that are Good, because they may be struggling to highlight each character's weaknesses and/or individual strengths in relation to a problem/situation. The better a writer understands each of their characters then it's more likely the story will retain interest. One method that helps is to create brief biographies of each key character (especially the main character). This prinicple applies to main characters that are Evil as well.

Characters that encounter various conflicts & challenges, who strive to overcome them, and, either succeed or fail - this is what makes not just a 'better' story, but one of the best! Why? Because when readers find something relatable or human in the character, in a way, this trait(s) earns their attention and focus either in a negative or positive way (or somewhere between that spectrum). =^^=




Mordred -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (5/26/2011 2:15:10)

Well, in my tale, Mordred's Vengeance, I really like grey, and different shades of it. I have formed two camps; one headed by Mordred Tumultu, usurper of the gods. He wishes to create universal Balance and Order by replacing the old gods with himself. All the "evils" of the universe would be eliminated. This sounds totally awesome, right? However, he's grey in that in order to achieve all this, he needs to use surreptitious means; conquer people and worlds, depose the gods(who are for the most part good/neutral), must destroy this universe to create a perfect one, and he must spread chaos in order to create Order(yes, it is paradoxical). He has also forsaken half of his soul, and knows only hatred, anger, sorrow, and other such negative emotions.

On the other camp, we have the noble Enduras at the head. The young man merely wished to put an end to the evils he sees, and when he sees Mordred perpetrating what looks incredibly evil, he courageously defends the gods in their fight with Tumultu. However, Enduras must also use under-handed tactics to wage the universal war, and often, what saves worlds from Tumultu's reign ends up weakening the planet from great conflict. And maybe worst of all, he dragged a poor young infant into this war and raised him to be a tool to fight in the open while he himself fights off Tumultu from the shadows.

Clearly, both are different shades of grey. Tumultu intends great good, but the means of achieving it are abhorring. And Enduras is stopping those evils, but this also means that he would be against "the greater good," and often has to chose the lesser of two evils in order to trump Tumultu.




The Extinguisher -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (6/28/2011 20:23:10)

See, I just avoid questions like good or evil by having characters who are complete monsters interact with other characters who are complete monsters. It's a really nice work around.




Glais -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (6/28/2011 22:06:09)

That's something I haven't seen, wonder how it turns out.
I generally go for good vs a questionable evil. Not a fan of the black and white pure evil for no reason type character.
I haven't made any stories where the protagonist is evil, actually...it never really occurred to me which is a bit strange.
I'm more interested in a good vs good story, but I have yet to see how it'd work.




Mortarion -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (6/28/2011 22:16:55)

I don't know how to describe my character as he is losing his sanity do to losing all of his families and friends, but he is also on a path to vengeance, he is really complicated




Eric Greydawn -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (6/30/2011 22:05:17)

quote:

What makes a better Story?
Where your main character is Good or Evil?



Hehe, this is a kind of loaded question. Good and evil, overall, in a literary sense can be a matter of perspective. It has long been my intent to attempt an experimental two part story... both parts written from a different perspective. It is my thought that by writing a story in a manner that depicts each side as alternatively good and evil, I can demonstrate readily that by a matter of perspective I can show both sides to be equally good AND evil.

A GOOD main character has both good and evil in him or her. It is INCREDIBLY rare that a person would be STRICTLY good OR strictly evil. Even the darkest soul can show grace and kindness to a person, as the brightest of souls can be dark and cold to someone who has an opposing view.




Razen -> RE: =CHAR= Good or Evil? (7/7/2011 4:19:05)

I must very much agree with Eric here. Good and Evil are quite subjective to perspective.

But, I typically prefer to write from a sense where both hero and villain are just and villainous in their goals, a rather odd thing.

But, I also agree with Glaisaurus_X, in that I'm also not a fan of the whole pure good vs. pure evil.

I always love to twist the reader's view on both characters, to try and make them love and hate them both. It's quite interesting.




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