RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (Full Version)

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EinhanderX01 -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 19:47:48)

Any further off-topic discussion, arguments, or bragging about how far you've beaten a boss down will get a warning.

Same goes for responses to off-topic comments. ~Ein



zeke50100 -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 19:49:42)

@trasn205: Creating such a rating of power level is much, much more difficult in MQ. AQ has base stats for every piece of weapon and armor, and most specials do nothing more than additional damage. Everything in MQ comes with strings attached; it's not just damage and BTH. Things done in AQ that our outside the "normal" bounds are few in number, so a case-by-case evaluation of those things is plausible. It just doesn't work in MQ, though, since case-by-case for every item is essentially just guess-timating.

~Zeke~



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:01:30)

@stealth
Just a note, at the time of the Warbear's release, there were no weapons that boosted damage higher than 100%. ;)
300% damage on all weps was, indeed, very OP. In addition, the pirate's nerfing usually wasn't actually enough to get past the 300% damage, especially with the AI often skipping over those weps entirely.
As for the Aegis, at the time there were no non-rare weps that nerfed all the way down to -75 bonus and -60 boost, and hardly any real healing weps (especially when it came to non-rares). So, again, it was quite powerful (though partially kept in check by the higher EP cost).

@MQL
The StP never was, and likely never will be OP. :P
Even now, it's not much more than balanced, especially for NSCs.
The boost nerf is nice, but doesn't help against specials (which creates the majority of damage nowadays). For example, a Trog can easily fight past the boost nerf because DoTs aren't affected by boost.

@zeke
Balance is an unfortunately murky thing in MQ. :P
However, I think standards can be set by existing MQ equipment, no? Something to compare with.



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:05:11)

Yes. But, they were just examples. There are more things like them. What mecha are considered OP right now?



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:10:41)

@stealth
Current mecha? Or are old mechs included? :P
Currently, there isn't really any overspecialization, so there aren't any OP mecha currently existing.

Also, whenever making balance comparisons, does it have to be compared to Necryptos? >_>
Just wondering, since Necryptos is, after all, an extremely challenging planet--being able to beat Necryptos should be considered extra evidence of OPness, not the only way something can be OP.



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:16:56)

Old mecha included, as long as they are still considered OP.

And a build must be able to beat up to piotr to be OP.* Mecha, do not. However, if you are bragging about how OP a mecha is, and saying it is the most OP mecha ever created, and about how you PWNZ0RZ EVERYTHIGN WITH IT! and how it is "one of the most OP mechas EVER", then be prepared to beat necryptos.

*Unless one of those enemies has the builds one weakness, and you can prove that A) The build can kill anything without that one thing, and B) That that is the ONLY thing which it is weak to, and C) That not many enemies/mecha/weapons have that one thing.



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:21:14)

@stealth
I'm preeeeeetty sure you saw the Eagle in action.
It is restricted in that its extreme power is limited to SCs, but it has indeed beaten Necryptos, even all defaults.

True the second part. XD
Took me a while to understand but then I applied context.



EinhanderX01 -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:28:20)

It's more restricted by virtue of the fact that it's a Permanent, 1-Time Rare, which, like all SCMMs of the past, will not return; and if they do, it will be in a balanced, game-friendly form.



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:32:12)

@Ein
That's why I asked whether old mecha still applied first. :P

There are no recent mecha, IIRC, that were too powerful (though many seemed a little too weak).

BTW, I'm surprised none of you commented on the part where PD asserts that SC Monthlies aren't supposed to be OP. :P
I was expecting to get online today and have to respond to dozens of posts about that point.



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:36:57)

I have never actually seen the eagle in action, only heard of what it has done.

Wasn't myracyrina buffed so that it couldn't beat her?

And I do not expect SCMM to be OP. I simply expect them to not be clones of each other. I was happy with the AC. A non-warbear clone, non-OP mecha.



EinhanderX01 -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:37:26)

I'm biding my time...

And besides, it's a moot discussion, what with the current SCMMs having been relatively straightforward, bland, and useless due to Zero focus and Zero specialization (Skysplitter being the most offending to the Series). Sure they're still neat-looking, but otherwise, that's all they have going for them at this time.



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:39:59)

@stealthwings
Correct. At the time of release, Miracyna wasn't quite as powerful, according to speedy.
He did put up shots of beating all the other vamp lords with all defaults, though.

And, partially to Einhander too, true. XD



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 20:57:35)

Exactly. Now, can it beat her?

Also, how reliable is the reflection, and does it need to hit? If it is guaranteed and not needing to hit, it is OP. If it isn't/needs to hit, it relies on the RNG/has a weakness, and is not OP.

Also, it won't reflect a killing blow, so lots of damage (myracyrina without shard) will kill it.



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 21:00:26)

@stealth
I kind of did just say a few posts earlier that being able to beat any part of Necryptos should be proof of extra OPness, not the only way something can be OP. :/
It does need to hit, but that's often not a problem--it does last for 5 turns. In addition, both hits have a chance of activating the special.

As for Miracyna, you do know that the Clown's the only non-VH that can beat it. XD



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 21:08:55)

Yeah. But piotr and Akana do good damage as well, you can't just slaughter them easily, you actually have to think. I was lead to believe it walked all over everyone from just using the shoulder and pressing random buttons. And needing to hit makes it not OP. There are a lot of bonus nerfing/defense buffing enemies. It is quite a popular special for enemies. If you ever fight PvP, that will slaughter it, lots of zorbos. (Also, extreme is the standard difficulty in PvP, making it not a guaranteed win if it hits)



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 21:26:16)

@stealth
The shoulders are best used on the first turn, and they usually are used on the first turn.
BtH nerfs won't help against them.

And again, being able to beat Necryptos with all defaults is indeed a sign of extreme power.
But that's getting off-topic now. >_>



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 21:32:48)

Are they guaranteed? If it doesn't activate, and then your opponent nerfs you, you can't get it active, and you lose. Or if your opponent goes first and nerfs you.



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 21:34:33)

Zorbo still takes a turn to activate. :P

In any case, no, but it takes much less than 100 times to get it to activate--you'll likely need no more than 2 battles to activate it and get the ball rolling.
And, again,
quote:

being able to beat Necryptos with all defaults is indeed a sign of extreme power.
But that's getting off-topic now. >_>



Shards Superior -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 21:40:14)

Remember: Ticklish Zorbo was available, what, 3 days?

I'm an addled-headed forumite. Can anyone define "overpowered" in clear, definitive terms?

Like this?:
quote:

And again, being able to beat Necryptos with all defaults is indeed a sign of extreme power.
But that's getting off-topic now. >_>

And, remember, with slight luck and one special mod, so can V-Hunter.
No



forumlogin -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 21:40:48)

@Shards
I left out the V-Hunter disclaimer because I'd already typed that 500 times or something. XD



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 21:50:44)

But you will have to use it more than once. It is extreme mode. And then there is also the subzero gaze, the seppy, the shieldbash, and lots of others. None as well-used as the zorbo though.

And it can't beat all of necryptos, not since myracyrina got buffed.



Shards Superior -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 22:01:06)

@Forumlogin: Ah. Got it.



icemaster 77 -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 22:04:55)

By the way, MQ should have dodge and hit speicals for weapons after they balanced the non rare to rare ratio.

And what is hit anyways, the know that bonus is the accuracy of the mech, but what is hit???



stealthwings -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/29/2010 22:39:27)

We don't need them. They will come eventually.



trans205 -> RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It? (11/30/2010 19:45:05)

Really late reply:

quote:

@trasn205: Creating such a rating of power level is much, much more difficult in MQ. AQ has base stats for every piece of weapon and armor, and most specials do nothing more than additional damage. Everything in MQ comes with strings attached; it's not just damage and BTH. Things done in AQ that our outside the "normal" bounds are few in number, so a case-by-case evaluation of those things is plausible. It just doesn't work in MQ, though, since case-by-case for every item is essentially just guess-timating.


Believe me, the AQ formula is much (emphasis) more complex than the damage and BTH that you think. Examples: status conditions, item compression penalties, elemental boosts and penalties, the element wheel, resistance balances, standard SP costs...etc.

The point is, all that can't be much more "easier" to deal with than MQ's stats. It's basically a +- of stuff like hit chance, damage %, regen, crit...just assign a "point" to whichever stat is more important. For example, a negative hit chance on the enemy is worth two points, while a negative defense is worth one point. Even the people in Dragonfable's equipment comparison made it to work.

Even if the MQ stat system is like quantum physics, guess-timating is a better choice than all that chaos.



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