RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (Full Version)

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DigDog -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (1/5/2013 22:14:04)

I've seen government structures in other clans and it takes a lot of good planning and active members to make it successful, otherwise it's at best a failed project or at worst it'll tear the clan apart.



Tuss -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (1/6/2013 7:19:20)

Since every Dynami pretty much speaks for the clan, we're ALL diplomats. It's all up to whoever has the initiative to do whatever needs to be done. They don't have to ask for permission or anything, though some notice would be appreciated.



Ultrapowerpie -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (1/6/2013 12:53:46)

ah ah ah, don't assume every Dynami speaks for the clan. Direct Democracy means that everyone has an opinion of equal value and is discussed "town hall" style. Saying that everyone is a diplomat is not a good idea, because that means someone can go to another clan and declare war. (Hypothetically of course, I speak of past Paxia however the reason we had goverment types was to prevent random forumites from saying WE WANT ALLIANCE or WE HATE YOU). Also, not everyone has the... patience to be a diplomat.


However, the same direct democracy principle allows others to discuss (within rules) civily.



Spanish Inquisition -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (1/7/2013 22:37:03)

The reason we work so well is because we don't have a million people with titles. There is only one, and he is Indignation. We don't need anything else.



DigDog -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (1/8/2013 19:22:19)

quote:

ah ah ah, don't assume every Dynami speaks for the clan. Direct Democracy means that everyone has an opinion of equal value and is discussed "town hall" style. Saying that everyone is a diplomat is not a good idea, because that means someone can go to another clan and declare war. (Hypothetically of course, I speak of past Paxia however the reason we had goverment types was to prevent random forumites from saying WE WANT ALLIANCE or WE HATE YOU). Also, not everyone has the... patience to be a diplomat.

However, the same direct democracy principle allows others to discuss (within rules) civily.


This argument totally ignores the fact that our dictator benevolent leader is the only one who has the political power to actually approve or deny operations that clan members are doing or suggesting.

It also totally ignores the fact that you are from a totally different clan and commenting on how our crazy system works, basically saying it's bad. Or something. Maybe not. In any case, the Indignation parts holds true regardless.



Ultrapowerpie -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (1/8/2013 19:35:19)

You misread the post then... wait, no, you're completely misreading it as the post was aimed directly at Tuss' comment, and only at Tuss' comment. Show me where I criticize y'all's government. Specifically, I was addressing Tuss' point that 'everyone is a diplomat and everyone speaks for Dynami', which is

A) Not true, as you stated there is a leader which has been dubbed as official policy approver/disprover/dictator/punch provider

B) If it was true, it is the equivalent of not having any form of organization and is akin to the "anarchy" periods of Old Paxia.


I futher expanded by saying that in a direct democracy, everyone has an opinion and a say, which is very true. However that does not mean that everyone has been allowed the capacity to officially represent the clan, which a diplomat does.

So I'm not seeing how I said it's bad. Nautica runs the same thing and it worked with them during the wars. The example I provided was explaining why these things exist to begin with, but Nautica ran a Direct Democracy before Dynami appeared. Now they're not exactly the same, but the basic ideology comes from the same government type.



DigDog -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (1/11/2013 8:47:03)

The ideology behind both Dynami and Nautica may be the same, but the fact remains that there are and will not be any definite "special positions with a title" such as Diplomat in Dynami as long as the current structure stands.

While it is true that in it's current state Democrazy only gives the illusion of freedom, it still is freedom, to a limit of course. The clan members are fit to act to their own liking, all the leader has to do is keep watch, or take action should some other clan member inform them of a potential problem with the actions of another clan member(this has never happened so far because the active Dynami clanbase is so few but "active" in Paxia that they know better(about backstabbing, that is)).

Is it a bad thing to allow anyone to act as the Diplomat at any given moment? How should we know, there never has been an incident with it so far. At least an incident that had of any impact. The wars ended years ago, what we have now is something that only deserves to be laughed at. Maybe if Paxia ever gets an update the system Dynami has needs to be checked again, IF there appear problems like you are suggesting.

But what it all boils down to, is that the Indignation will always hold the power to approve or deny what the clan members are currently acting on about, at any given moment. Tuss just might think we know better than to be complete asses, and anyone new going on and declaring war on Everyone has as much importance to Paxia as Dragon War #182732832725287328131238612387123 has to the plotline of AQ.

You could argue that the Dynami system is flawed on it's core and lies to it's members about freedom, but we've had it for years and no one has complained about it. For real, that is. I think. I sort of forgot, the proposed Council-ruling suggestions may have been about promoting activity, but we sure curbstomped those talks fast.



Ultrapowerpie -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (1/11/2013 11:29:04)

Stop. Stop right now. Breathe. And re-read my post. You are taking it out of context and have failed to answer my original question: where the heck did I state that the current system is bad? Point it out to me, because as I explained, I dd no such thing. Because, again, the post was aimed at Tuss and at Tuss only and was not intent on a critique of your clan's government.

In fact, I pointed out that Nautica had it before you, and I was completely fine with that. I am not arguing for any changes whatsoever.

What I am saying, from personal experience and a large interest in history in general, is that an attitude that "everyone is a diplomat" is bad. Why do I say this? Because the event I am reffering to is the Clan Wars, before Dynami entered, which means unless you were active in the complete chaos that was old Paxia, you don't know what I'm referring to, because it is certainly not to the paltry activity levels after the "new boom".

I can very easily extend this by going into your claims of "no past incidents" and "no complaints" by bringing up subjects that you've unfortunately forgotten, but I won't. Because, as I stated before, my post's aim is to dispel the notion that "all are diplomats" is wrong on multiple levels, including your assumption about what Tuss thinks. So I would like to move away from this because I am not here to advocate for government change. If I was my posts would be considerably longer.

If you insist on debating, I insist you stick with my main point/argument/reason for posting: "everyone is a diplomat" is a bad notion. I already stated that your clan has a check to prevent that, so I am not arguing for change. If I have somehow given that impression, I do apologize, but that is not what my point is.




Now, let's get on to something that's worth discussing: Where is Indignation's forum account?





Tuss -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (1/11/2013 15:24:57)

Hmm. Reading it again, that doesn't sound like me at all. I think what I meant to say was that anyone who wanted to be a diplomat can be, as long as they clear it with me and let everyone else in the clan know that they've taken on the role. Well, they only really have to clear it with me. I'd probably be the one telling everyone they signed up for the job.



Ultrapowerpie -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (1/11/2013 15:59:07)

Well, that completely solves any contentions I have. I hereby present everyone with peanut brittle and carry on with the discussion.

*Moogle does so*



dart11112 -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (2/5/2013 23:58:59)

your system of government is cool. definatly a turn on for me



Zyrain -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (2/6/2013 15:07:51)

dart11112: Our way of government certainly seems to work for us. :)


Now then, there is a topic I'd like to expose for discussion.
I can't exactly remember where I saw it so I can't reliably quote, however, I seem to remember Pie stating that old rules were being changed and that we were being allowed to re-create old Paxian threads which were once banned.

So, my proposal is that we revive such threads in Dynami in the hopes that we can attract new (and maybe old) life to Paxia, though specifically Dynami.
For example: the "Pet" threads.



dart11112 -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (2/6/2013 15:27:42)

what is "old paxia" Ultrapowerpie seems to h8 it but since i started playing in 07 i hav no idea what that means.

can someone explain plz?



Ultrapowerpie -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (2/6/2013 21:46:02)

Hate? No, you misunderstand completely if you think that. Old Paxia is before the New Clans came in. Some may extend it to before the first major decline (after the events died out) but generally it refers to the first three clans. Also refers to the lack of moderation in the area.

And, yes, old restrictions are somewhat lax, but pets was the only one I could remember (that and the temple from Nocturu but that's a different issue)>

So for now feel free to recreate the thread (if you remember what it looked like). I'll step in if it gets "out of hand" (which I doubt), so go ahead.



dart11112 -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (2/6/2013 23:02:02)

thanks Ultrapowerpie.

mustve been hectic without mods. (but probably fun too ;)



Riffus Maximus -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (2/8/2013 0:13:20)

quote:

And, yes, old restrictions are somewhat lax, but pets was the only one I could remember (that and the temple from Nocturu but that's a different issue)>

Hey, is that a hint I could bring the Creperum and Drell's Kitchen here? I would be more than happy to move these threads here.



Zyrain -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (2/10/2013 8:46:18)

Mmkay. I have permission from Tuss to create a new pet thread for Dynami. However, with a new twist:

quote:

We should tie the pet level-up to Defense Scores then, because donating gold or tokens to the clan is just a bottomless sink with no benefits right now.

Whilst the others on the PPFs decide on the best way to set up the levelling system, I thought it would be a good idea to start generating possible names for the pet and later voting on a name. Though firstly I need to talk to Pie about setting up threads, etc.



Spanish Inquisition -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (2/10/2013 12:24:30)

I wish I could remember who was doing our old pet thread. Alas, my keen search skills have located it within the Hive. I'll add it to the Dynami area of the PPF for discussion.



Riffus Maximus -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (2/11/2013 0:49:42)

I wish ours wouldn't have been located in the NPFs (which not longer exists).



Ultrapowerpie -> RE: Diplomatic Application Thread (8/6/2013 22:41:16)

At this time there is going to be an overhaul of ALL clan governments and as such this thread shall be locked. Please take notice of this thread http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21408133.



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