RE: The Removal of Losses. (Full Version)

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friend18 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/23/2012 14:33:09)

quote:

@above Does it really take a math nerd to find a %? It's pretty easy math to do in the first place so I highly doubt we wouldn't have win ratio if the staff never showed it on Leaderboards.


I even posted the equation. It's basic math. The point of a PVP game is to win. Removing losses would ruin the point of the game, which is to compete.

quote:

Wins divided by win ratio = total battles fought. Total battles fought - wins = total losses.


@King Frostlich - Using low quality would prevent disconnects... There's a lot less lag.



goldslayer1 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 1:08:05)

quote:

There's no fun of the game if you remove losses, because you compare your win rate with others! To get higher win rate, you want better builds and that's what you always fight for! Removing losses would make the whole game lose it's meaning.

and it isn't fun for low lvls to be pummeled by high lvls in all modes and then realise that they win record literally sucks. then they think they are bad at the game and quit.

then all of a sudden, boom instant loss of potential customer for ED.



King FrostLich -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 5:06:03)

quote:

Using low quality would prevent disconnects... There's a lot less lag.


I'm not talking about disconnections by means of performance of the game. I've always set my quality at low and I still disconnect because of loss of connection.


quote:

Hiding or removing losses ...? Hiding or removing wins or rates ..???

i wonder which way is ED going ?

personally, i dont like the whole idea !


Removing Losses - Yes
Hiding Losses - No
Hiding and/or removing win ratio in leaderboard - No



quote:

There's no fun of the game if you remove losses, because you compare your win rate with others! To get higher win rate, you want better builds and that's what you always fight for! Removing losses would make the whole game lose it's meaning.


I'm not only talking about higher levels who want to compete. I'm also here for the low levels getting their 2v2 records demolished by juggernauts and random noob partners. keeping the win ratio when going for a daily is fine because it still determines how often you win battles. Ever heard of someone named king of the univer? Yeah, 2800+ wins in 1v1, 7k losses losses. 4387 2v2 wins, 12k losses. 54 juggernaut wins and 211 losses on him. Heck who would even invite him to any faction or would call him good?





Killer666 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 6:17:51)

Frost bring up a valid point. and the only reason you try to find people with good win/loss ratio, is so you can copy their build. where is ruining the games creativity. And not to mention losses just make you feel bad since most non variums *unless they npc* will get there ration TOTALLY messed up because of all there fully enhanced variums running around. I think this is a good Fix and i support 100%



King FrostLich -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 7:41:45)

quote:

the only reason you try to find people with good win/loss ratio, is so you can copy their build.


Excuse me but I don't copy builds. I am a tactical mercenary with level 8 field medic tank build and unlike most juggernaut tact mercs, they use posion tank builds rather than a heal looping tank build plus I have alot of mana to re-compensate enough damage to heal 4 times. Right now, I just bought the Delta Armoryesterday and I want to switch back to Blood Mage without using varium to test and see more variety on it.



friend18 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 9:25:06)

Even WITH the large amount of recent juggernaut fights, I was able to maintain an 75% win ratio with my non-varium tech mage (he's now level 29). I even won some of them. All it takes is a raged bolt. So no. The low level players who don't win are just bad. They constantly complain about how they can't win. But, every time I point out to them that it's their build, they refuse to fix it. I mean who the flip uses max def matrix? That's just a huge drain on energy. It's also pointless because the def matrix is WAY too high, that your opponent will still hit the minimum 3. And what makes it worse is that they'll just end up getting rage faster... It seems that many people don't understand how the skills work. The only time a tech mage should use def matrix is when they're smoked. It works between level 20-29 because a lot of times, you don't have a bot yet. Also, if your support is high enough, the def matrix might be a better option, clearing up some energy for reroute and also possibly giving you a slight boost to your overall physical defense (since most tech mages have a lot more tech, their dex is low to begin with and dropping the block chance further wouldn't really hurt them). If a player knows how to play, they'll end up doing well. And if they're willing to take advice, they'd improve their record. I brought my 2v2 record on my primary from 50% to 73% over the course of a month. I figured out what I was doing wrong and fixed the problems with my build.

The random noob partners are a problem, even at the higher levels. I hate it when I get a non-varium tact merc who had decided to change classes at level 30. I realized that it's only a good idea at level 32 and up. At that point, you would actually have around 70K+ worth of credits lying around (and that's with a good win record, 80% in solo, 75% in team). If you do it any earlier, you wouldn't be able to purchase the best items for your level. Those tact mercs also have ridiculously low tech because they didn't bother to bring it up. I would rather drop dex and mineral armor and up tech, that way, having a more balanced build. What's also bad is that they improve their double strike, not realizing that reroute is more important... I end up wasting 15 minutes to either barely win the fight (if I can get to my heal, I'm fine), otherwise I end up losing, which is frustrating when the opponent is some jerk who leaves with a taunt. The nice part is that if I time it right, I can always crush them in the next round. But back to the main point, most players don't know how to play. They don't bother to observe strategies and read up on how to improve their build. They either waste varium and end up with a crappy record (just because they don't know how to make a good build) or they waste their credits on bikes and crap.



5rr5 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 9:46:56)

quote:

and it isn't fun for low lvls to be pummeled by high lvls in all modes and then realise that they win record literally sucks. then they think they are bad at the game and quit.

then all of a sudden, boom instant loss of potential customer for ED.

That's not my problem, everybody has gone through fighting high level people. They will make less losses when they level up, you don't know how many times I was keep fighting lvl 33s when I was lvl 28!



friend18 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 9:58:18)

And of course, with a good build, a lower level player can win :) It's quite possible, except against fully enhanced varium players (although I did happen to beat a few, they just didn't see the massacre coming XD, and then rage just killed them if they survived the massacre).



King FrostLich -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 10:22:10)

quote:

That's not my problem, everybody has gone through fighting high level people. They will make less losses when they level up, you don't know how many times I was keep fighting lvl 33s when I was lvl 28!


More over, it won't take long for newer lower levels to realize juggernauts ruin their 2v2, alot of players they fight are varium and realize if they can't make a good build with varium, then they consider the game expensive and blame the devs through the losses.

quote:

And of course, with a good build, a lower level player can win :) It's quite possible, except against fully enhanced varium players (although I did happen to beat a few,


Only way to win when fighting a juggernaut.

1.) Bunker Merc
2.) Caster Mage
3.) Massacre type bounty hunter
4.) 2 Full varium players


Unfortunately, time will come when they reach level 30, they won't get anymore juggernaut matches which is worse. Why? Time to get butchered by level 34's with full varium these days.



5rr5 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 10:41:44)

quote:

More over, it won't take long for newer lower levels to realize juggernauts ruin their 2v2, alot of players they fight are varium and realize if they can't make a good build with varium, then they consider the game expensive and blame the devs through the losses.

That's not to blame me or the devs, the only solution is to buy varium.

quote:

Only way to win when fighting a juggernaut.

1.) Bunker Merc
2.) Caster Mage
3.) Massacre type bounty hunter
4.) 2 Full varium players
Depends on if it's a varium or a non-varium juggernaut, it's still hard for the juggernaut since the juggernaut has to take down 2 enemies. Sometimes it's really easy to win juggernauts when there are 1 str and 1 tank, they can also get really lucky. Everything doesn't have to depend on the build. If you haven't noticed, there are invisible luck in this game.



King FrostLich -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 10:44:40)

That's one of the main problems. Even if losses were removed and you still lose then you still need to get it anyway if you want to compete more even if you remove the word losses from record.



5rr5 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 10:53:20)

People are looking at the win rate to decide if a player is good or bad, removing them would make it harder to decide if a player is good or bad. And it's harder to know if a build is good or bad, since you can't see how many times you lost with that build.



friend18 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 14:21:47)

I beat Basicball in juggernaut when I hadn't purchased varium yet :/

quote:

People are looking at the win rate to decide if a player is good or bad, removing them would make it harder to decide if a player is good or bad. And it's harder to know if a build is good or bad, since you can't see how many times you lost with that build.


In any PVP game, wins/losses give people an identity. I don't care HOW MANY times you've won. All I care about is your win ratio. Why? You could have 100,000 wins but have lost 1,000,000 times. That makes you a horrid player. Without the losses to gauge how good someone is, the game becomes pointless. There's no point in competing with other people if your wins/losses aren't displayed. I have a 92% win ratio in solo, 73% win ratio in team, and a 100% win ratio in Juggernaut (I've done 20 fights, whenever I start getting bored of 1v1/2v2). I LIKE my record. Sure, I messed up early on, but with patience and a custom build (copying others leads to a lower ratio because you'll just encounter the same build and it all comes down to luck) that works, I ended up raising my win ratio from 80% in solo and 50% in team. And now, whenever I create a new character (non-varium), the ratios are much higher. It's knowing what to do that makes a difference. Even varium can be useless in the hands of an incapable player. I just chose to observe builds, adjust my def accordingly, calculate block rate, deflection chance, etc. Doing the math during your 15 seconds per turn can help you make the best decision possible (probability-wise).



8x -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 15:15:23)

1. I didn't read any of the posts above.
2. Here are some pros and cons of removing losses in my opinion:

Pros:
- It would make non paying costumers and players with a lot of losses happy. (Of course after reaching level cap most of them would probably become bored and quit.)

Cons:
- People would start spamming strength.
- There would be a lot of annoyed costumer who worked hard for good win ratios.
- All of the battles would be the same; why bother using strategy when you can just spam offensive skill and only attack?
- Playing ED would become boring.
- Paying costumers wouldn't need latest weapons anymore, so ED would earn less money.

3.
quote:

3.) Fame - So far, I see it as the only feature that disrupts normal gameplay, why? Duh, asking people for fame everyday and what do you get in exchange? An achievement, yes it's an achievement but do they do anything to you other than just gain stars for your character? Of course not and people who want to ask you to fame them makes you feel like pressing the ignore button or even reporting them to a moderator.

I don't want to troll, but weren't you one of those people who "makes you feel like pressing the ignore button or even report them to a moderator"?



Angels Holocaust -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 15:24:11)

@ 8x

I have the highest win ratio on the all time board and am willing to sacrifice my win ratio for the greater good and that's progress. Our win ratios have and never will do anything for us because it's next to impossible to implement a feature that will reward players for the quality of battles over quantity.



goldslayer1 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 18:32:00)

quote:

That's not my problem, everybody has gone through fighting high level people. They will make less losses when they level up, you don't know how many times I was keep fighting lvl 33s when I was lvl 28!

its not ur problem. its the game's problem.

and yes, everyone has gone thru the "loosing" stage in their chars. but never has the loosing been this high before.
i played and reached lvl cap in beta.

back then we were not routed from 2 vs 2 into juggernaut so we could loose.
and back then there were no enhancements, so non vars had better chances.
its not the same anymore. it would be dumb (not insulting anyone, just letting the soft people know) to say it is.

i myself have a high 93.2% in 1 vs 1. and 72% in 2 vs 2, along with a 96% in juggernaut (this was mostly early juggernaut)
im willing to sacrifice that for whats good.
and i know u seen angel's %
she has 97% in 1 vs 1, around 78% (probably higher since i haven't seen it in a while)
and a 99% in juggernaut. even she, who enjoy beating low lvls like its nothing, is saying that losses should be removed.

i really dont see how someone could not support this when the pros outweigh the cons like 5/1



Zeoth -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 18:43:17)

@Gold
The basic argument is it won't do anything and the other argument would be loss of identity, which is important for lots of people. Just knowing who you are. Good or bad. Personally I support this as I wish my ratio were better, but ah well. I do believe that unique builds would flourish again with the removal of losses. I already use somewhat unique builds despite that fact I lose way to often to cookie cutter builds. Only do to the fact I no longer play. I haven't actually logged on in several months. But I do support the removal of losses


Sorry for any grammar errors, on my phone >_>



Stabilis -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 18:51:55)

Can we also remove wins while we are at it? So... that we just look for the "ratio" of a person. And by this I mean knowing the skill level of the player. The "ratio" can be found in many ways, number of wins per loss, win streaks, etc.



Ranloth -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 18:55:44)

Removing loses from the public view would be good enough, and let other people see your battle count and wins. You'd still be able to see your loses but only you, no one else. I don't mind them even if my ratio might be somewhat okay, and it should stay since it shows where you've made a mistake with your build.
Loses are gained from messed up match-ups but doesn't mean they must go, perhaps matching up could be altered for all modes to prevent such a high amount of loses such as:
1v1: 1-3 Level difference as opposed to 1-5
2v2: Up to 3 Levels difference between side + up to 3 Levels between players on each side (so side A may have total Level of 60, Lvl 31 and 29, lowest Level side B may get Lvl 30 and 27 (27 would have access to 'lower-tier' top equipment))
Juggernaut: Ranges a bit less spaced out, such as at top Level, instead of 25-29, make it 27-29 which can pose more challenge. At Lvl 35, it could be upped to 28-29.

quote:

i really dont see how someone could not support this when the pros outweigh the cons like 5/1

Fact one number is higher than the other doesn't mean we must support it. Some cons might be more serious even though they have lower number than pros, and it's called personal opinion too; we're not forced to support every idea even if it's good for some. ;)



friend18 -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/25/2012 20:06:43)

There are more cons to the proposal than pros. Have you guys considered asking other players about how they feel? Would you enjoy being beaten by a horrible player who just got lucky and have him taunt you endlessly? You have to understand that without a win ratio (and wins and losses), many bad players will be everywhere bragging about how good they are when they're not that good. The wins/losses establish this fact and allow other players to see who's actually good and who's not. The point of a PVP game is to compete with and against other players. There is simply no competition if wins/losses are removed. Comicalbiker wouldn't be the guy in all-time first place after a year after the proposed system is implemented. No one, except long-time players would know who he is. It would also be the same for all-time leader board players. Any bad player could claim that they're good when they're not. At least right now, if a bad player starts bragging, you can point out that his win/loss ratio is lower than someone else's (whoever he's bragging to) and that'll silence him/her. Even my cousin, who recently started (non-varium player), has managed to maintain an 80% win ratio in solo, and a 75% win ratio in team. He's proud of his record. It gives him a sense of identity in the game. He's able to stand out as a good player and other players respect him for that. I definitely wouldn't want my wins/losses to disappear. It shows how good I am. I can also use my record to prove that, yes, it's possible to do well as a non-varium player.

Also, removing losses would mean that less people would want to purchase varium. They'd lose a couple of times, give up, and quit the game entirely anyways. Why spend varium on a game that doesn't display losses? There's no point. EpicDuel isn't like Second Life. The point is to compete, not to sit around and chat. Fighting for "wins", which aren't really wins because there wouldn't be an element of competition, would be pointless. It's like playing a short flash game, reaching the ending, and then quitting because there is no point to play for more "wins".



Lycus -> RE: The Removal of Losses. (6/26/2012 6:39:48)

After having to delete multiple comments going through, and deal with other posts, and I can easily see from the posting pattern and clash of opinions from person to person that this could get quite out of hand again. For this reason, I am going to lock this up, and I would advise using the suggestions section for this since it is a suggestion, not a discussion, and with the new layout of the suggestion section, you can now discuss there also, to an extent.



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