RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (Full Version)

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TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/19/2012 21:51:04)

@mother its meant to be a powersuit so your gloves could generate energy. its not like you are hitting them with your bare hands



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/19/2012 22:04:52)

If it was meant to work with the primary weapon then all the damage no matter what would have reflected the primary weapon (meaning blue for energy and green for physical) However, it was always green which meant that it was suppose to be 100% physical and that it was a bug if it was doing physical damage yet subtracting from resistance.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/19/2012 22:05:32)

Actually, the green letters indicating physical damage isn't really based off of your opponents defense at all. If you've noticed, having an energy primary then using malf on an opponent will result in higher uppercut damage. I think the physical is just placed, as mother said, to set it to be realistic. Your opponent's physical defense has nothing to do with the damage uppercut does. It's damage is simply something related to the normal amount of damage you deal when you strike.

When you get down to nerfing things like caster, str, etc... I've figured out it's pretty much that a caster will lose to str if they don't go first, and vice versa. Even if the caster has an insanely strong defense matrix, one can easily counter that with azrael. Also, CH/BH focus can easily neutralize 100-110 energy caster builds with 2 emps, which isn't that much considering energy is the core of caster damage output, and blood lust really helps compensate for most of the damage you take from a caster mage when they run out of energy. I don't get in the slightest about why you would nerf TLM. In my opinion, its skill tree doesn't work well at ALL since smoke was removed, and it should actually get a minor buff, the way I look at it. When it comes down to focus BM, it's just a matter of build type. Some builds fare particularly well, and others don't. If you have atom smasher/emp, it really helps dominate focus BMs, given they don't start using boosters, which they normally do, and that's how I lose to them most of the time.

Staff req for bludgeon? That's ridiculous. It's a good skill and if it was moved to staff-only, TM would have...5 skills that can only be used with a staff: that's almost half of THEIR ENTIRE SKILL TREE. No one would use swords as a TM if that happened.

Complaining about nerfing specific builds itself isn't exactly a good idea; I believe asking for nerfs on skills is much more reasonable, as many of the builds these days either succeed or fail based off of the opponent's build. Some builds are particularly effective against casters, while lacking against str builds, and so on.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/19/2012 22:35:00)

for what i can say is that they should nerf bloodlust by a few % and nerf massacre by 15% each level because seriously a max supercharge castermage with technician on deals only 48-55 damage to me but a max massacre or even a lvl 6 can do around 60 damage with my defence matrix on 21 defence points and they could basically kill you if you have 70 health and no shields on. bounty hunter's other skill is balanced but massacre isn't. and strength builds still need a major nerf, and deadly aim needs a nerf by a few % so when its maxed out it will deal +9 damage with a 35 damage gun.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/19/2012 23:14:26)

@ TrizZz

So you want to nerf Deadly aim and Massacre just because str builds are abusing it? Nerfing deadly aim will hurt all the builds that use it not just strength builds. How about just nerfing strength itself instead of nerfing the moves that work with it and all other builds? Your ideas for nerfs will hurt focus, support and other non strength TM/BM who don't abuse this more then the str build who do abuse it. The same could be said for those who use massacre that aren't strength builds as well as the passive of bloodlust.

So can you tell me does it really make sense to treat the take out the small frys (aka passives and moves that all builds use that are only OP because of one build) when you can take out the main problem and let the other classes have these moves to compete? (aka OP str stat.)



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/19/2012 23:44:17)

im not only talking about strength builds, 5 focus bloodmage is just as powerful with deadly aim on. and 5 focus hunters rarely uses massacre how does that affect them? and the reason bloodlust needs to be nerfed by a teeny tiny bit is that is still is very effective in battle. you can get health back everytime you attack and i rarely see a bloodmage does damage below 10 strength or 5 focus and same applies to bounty hunters. unless of course you have below 13-15 strength and have a weaker weapon and you concentrate all your stats to dex and tech. and also the luck factor needs to be increased make the max block rate 50% because strength bloodmages rarely gets blocked and 5 focus ones will have no problem with the block rate buff because they have average defence. so this is my solution to nerf strength builds.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 0:15:40)

As I stated before nerfing the passives and moves that work with strength is only a temperory fix. Remember when Fireball was nerfed because str BM were abusing it? Guess what they just went and invested points into other things and are still strong however with this nerf it would only exclusive to the class and the builds within it so it didn't hurt the other classes as much as it did the other builds in this class.

However nerfing Deadly aim will hurt TM as well. Right now I am a level 5 focus TM with 16-20 strength and yes I use deadly aim? With the nerf you are suggesting to do because of str BM and focus BM (The later of the two being powerful with DA but not OP) will hurt me and any other non caster TM who uses deadly aim that aren't abusing it. Is it really fair that another class with this same passive has to suffer because another class with this same passive is OP because of it? I think not.

With the build I have now I can hang with the best of them and even beat these OP classes without actually abusing a certain stat as well as others who use non caster TM builds with Deadly aim. Nerfing it because of one build that is OP with it isn't fair in the least.

Nerfing strength would stop this abuse because the side arm works with strength as well as massacre and as I stated before weakening strength will make all the attacks and moves that go with it hurt less where as nerfing the skills by themselves will just leave the original problem still there while hurting those who don't abuse it.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 2:17:20)

so basically higher strength less=accuracy, thats enough to nerf strength builds or if its not enough make strength improve with 6-7 points after you go past 16-20 damage.



Promaster -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 4:49:23)

I dont see a reason to nerf str BMs any more. I pulled off a 123 str with 124 hp and 56ep, and 21-26+5-1 defense and resistance with 48 support and even then, i still find trouble winning with my opponents hitting harder than me due to my lack of defenses. I get blocked a lot and deflected even more. My losses outnumbered my wins. Str BM builds are basically a All-or-Nothing build, risking everything for str and hp. ( Dont get the wrong idea of me defending str BMs. I only tried that build for an hour before changing to a support build. I am only speaking up about my experiences as being a str BM myself.)

Nerfing any of our skills now will completely weaken any other builds that we can have. And may i add, that a support BM completely nulifies str BMs. All in all, i agree with Mother1 about how nerfing our skills just because of a certain build that benefits it greatly from them.

But what i do find troubling, is that CHs can completely ignore their support and technology to a certain extent, and just pump their hp, str and dex up. I fought a CH with 135 str, around 121 dex with 18 base support and 60+ tech (after including stat modifiers) with 124 hp and minimum ep who completely obliterated me. With emp, it totally makes it worse seeing as to how he renders me useless with my ep to shield myself against his malf and hard hitting attacks. And with that high str, he can gain back a lot of ep and even heal a couple of times after having his health below half with his level 6 heal. Deflections are not even a problem to them as they could malf to lower our tech to be on par with theirs. If this isn't OP, i dont know what is.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 8:52:09)

@trizz Putting luck penalties isn't going to help balance things out. If luck is required to win then it's not truly balanced. You could win against Str BMs if you blocked their Bludgeon but were they balanced?



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 11:45:35)

quote:

I had , and yes , it's quite devastating . 12 - 15 base Pri/Side Damage , then 22- 27 base Aux damage . But i don't think he had a PB that's maxed out though .


That's not a big Support abuse. I've seen quite bigger. And been a bigger one myself.



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 15:17:22)

I know this has been talked about before, but can we get rid of blocking it's become ridiculos with dex bounty hunters who have 120 dex have 9 shadow arts on and are able to smoke you... Problem? Now I think the alot of the classes suffer from this especially stregth Mercs and BM's and the rest follow... if we are to keep blocking though make the max chance 10-20 if that it's gotten really annoying.

But dex BH's need to be nerfed or at least bocking it is ridculos.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 15:41:46)

@ Dragonman111

Then strength builds would be running a muck even more if they removed blocking. I can see it now someone with 120+ str raging with a max out berzeker dealing 80+ damage because it and every attack that was normally blockable being unblockable or any other supercharged strength move because of this.

The game would become even more be a strength build or die.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 16:19:07)

Mother1, just leave it. His point proves that Dex is working correctly.. I mean 120 Dex, maxed SA and you're Smoked and issue is that enemy blocks too much. Isn't that obvious with such a massive Dex gap? If they put it to his 10-20%, he'll still moan because they still block (values would be lower but still work in the same way) and he'd ask for removal of them.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 16:28:36)

Since everyone is asking for a nerf to strength abusive bounty hunters, how about this:

Smokescreen

Strike and reduce the opponents defense while increasing YOUR ability to hit by a scaling percentage.


Level 1: 2 defense points
Level 2: 4 defense points (1% to connect)
Level 3: 6 defense points
Level 4: 7 defense points (3% to connect)
Level 5: 8 defense points
Level 6: 9 defense points (5% to connect)
Level 7: 10 defense points
Level 8: 11 defense points (6% to connect)
Level 9: 12 defense points
Level 10: 13 defense points (7% to connect)


Does this seem weaker to you?

Well, lets see then...


2 defense points is 8 dex
4 defense points is 16 dex
6 defense points is 24 dex
7 defense points is 28 dex
8 defense points is 32 dex
9 defense points is 36 dex
10 defense points is 40 dex
11 defense points is 44 dex
12 defense points is 48 dex
13 defense points is 52 dex


This time, decreasing the opponents defense will NOT make it that they lose blocking power. HOWEVER, if you increase the skill, you see that you can increase YOUR hit power. A 5% connect is equal to +20 dex to YOU.

The assault bot will be able to reduce the effectiveness, BUT it also has a smaller requirement with a smaller EP cost.

EP cost is 11 step 2 (29 MAX)
Requirement is 18 support step 2 (36 MAX)




The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 16:46:01)

@Trans No I wouldn't don't make assumtions like that I'd be fine with cutting the max block by 20, but 40 is a little high and wth dex bounty hunter it's so easy to achieve it, that's almost a 50/50 chance especially if your using skills like berskers or maul or even other skills form other classes if they block that your done and then they go ahead and use their unclobkable masscre dealing dones of damage because not only do they have a high block rate, but because of smoke they'll do way more damage and get dones of health from blood lust it's very annoying not to mention masscre does dones of damage smoke screen or not.

Strength Bounty Hunters can be a pain, but the dex one's just make you curse at your computer screen it's stinks to be blocked I know, but I have 80 dex and I block at least twice when facing them I don't mind the luck factor, but please lower the max block chance.

Or... better yet just go with Raynie's idea decrease the amount of dex you take away with smoke screen and increase your hit that would be helpful and way more balanced.



D.v.D. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 17:46:48)

Dex bounty are made to block..You fell for it.Also 80 dex is actually pretty low.
There is a turn when the smoke screen fades and berserker could be used then.

"unblockable masscre dealing dones of damage because not only do they have a high block rate, but because of smoke they'll do way more damage"

Mass IS unblockable.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 17:53:14)

Raynie, I think the debuff is quite powerfull, but without losing the blocking chance it's pretty fair. :)



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 19:49:08)

There's a diffrence between a build that is made to do a particular thing and a build that stop's their oppnent from doing vital skills that can cost them the game Tlm is made to have high defense so you'll do less damage, but so the enemy will do less damage along with that surport tech mage trades high damage rate for low defense output their is balance there, Merc's can be defensive and strong either way you lose something for the benifit of something else, whereas dex BH's they ruin the game because if you can't damage an enemy with your strong attacks that can really turn the tide of battle then what's the point they can make you block like crazy with their high dex, max shadow arts and smoke screen which won't just make you block more, but make them do more damage and of course high strength or not you'll end up doing a ton of damage with masscre so their needs to be a change.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 20:06:48)

@ Raynie

I like your idea for smoke and with that you did it seems like you added the effect of the saint patrick's days weapons with the chance to connect. I have to ask you though does it improve with anything or is it on a fixed scale like Blood shield would be?

@ Dragonman111

It is one of the many possibilities made for the hunter class and to be honest it is a nice change to see some dex BH and even Tech BH then all of the str BH I have been seeing and fighting. Besides this build is one of the few builds that can stand up to those vastly OP str builds. They need to be like this so they can compete. Weakening them because you are having bad luck with them would only serve to make Strength builds even more OP against this type of build which isn't what anyone wants. It would just force these player to go to Str builds and boom less creativity and more OP ness.



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 20:20:25)

It's more creative but it is unfair too.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/20/2012 22:59:22)

@mother


It does NOT increase :)


@dragonman

Players attacked by my smokescreen do not lose their blocking power, so a maxed strength BH cannot expect to always hit with smokescreen :)



RabbleFroth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/21/2012 10:20:51)

Hey all!

Got a good announcement to make about balance discussion: We finally have a whole forum for balance open over HERE!

Please move all discussions over there instead of posting any further discussions in General Discussion to make it easier for us to look through. The same ideas apply in there as in General Discussion: If you see a thread talking about what you want to discuss, post in that thread (unless no one has posted in it for a few weeks) instead of making your own thread.

Otherwise, feel free to discuss anything and everything pertaining to balance. We want your feedback and to see some good discussion. :)

Thanks and enjoy,
RabbleFroth




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