Remove Att/Def/Res range (Full Version)

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Submit To God -> Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/14/2013 11:18:48)

Defense, Resistance and the attack of weapons and robots have a range e.g (12-15).

If these are replaced with a fixed number (e.g the average at each stage) like almost all the skills are (only Plasma Cannon, Bunker Buster, Supercharge and Surgical Strike have a range), the element of luck will be reduced and there will be more emphasis on strategy since calculations can be made (more accurately) in the middle of a battle as to the outcome of different choices and the optimal option will be more clearer.

Nothing game-changing - the value of the stats will still be the same; just switches reliance from luck to skill.



Mother1 -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/14/2013 11:30:25)

Not supported

these ranges are given so everyone has a change. Removing them would only make matches more scripted and will make lower levels complain more.



Drianx -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/14/2013 11:59:21)

To be honest, I'd increase the mentioned attack/defense/resistance ranges and reduce the other luck factors, for less gamebreaking randomness involvement.



Bloodpact -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/14/2013 12:21:25)

would be nice if they were averaged out.

Ps. tho mother, it already is kinda scripted.


This is how it goes between two respectable players, lets say max level since it's the common example.


Player A vs Player B

Player A hits

Player B hits

Player A gets lucky somehow ( block , crit, 3% stun, etc )

If Player B also does not get a counter luck

Player A wins. Bam a summery of all the fight's I've seen.

With very few events where two great builds go at it, and the outcome? who knows.
More or less it can be summed up to the randomness factor tho of the offense's and defender's range.

I'm indifferent about this change ,because there are more pressing balance issues atm.



Submit To God -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/14/2013 19:33:24)

@Mother

quote:

these ranges are given so everyone has a change.


Isn't there enough "change" since the pvp battles are random so there is no telling of who you will fight or what kind of build you will be up against?

quote:

Removing them would only make matches more scripted and will make lower levels complain more.


Why would lower levels complain if they do more consistent damage?
And please explain how this would significantly affect how scripted matches are.




ND Mallet -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/14/2013 19:47:49)

@submit They have luck in this game so you can't go into a battle, look at the builds and then be able to tell who will win. The damage and defense ranges are another part of making outcomes in battles uncertain. A lower level player would have an advantage if he got the higher end of damage and defense while the higher level got lower damage and lower defense. Removing luck not only allows stat abuse to be a problem, it also nerfs lower levels when they fight against higher levels.



Submit To God -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/14/2013 22:09:49)

@Archkinght
quote:

A lower level player would have an advantage if he got the higher end of damage and defense while the higher level got lower damage and lower defense.


How would that occur if the stats are just averaged at each stage?

quote:

Removing luck not only allows stat abuse to be a problem, it also nerfs lower levels when they fight against higher levels.


1. This is not removing luck, just the ranges for said stats - compared to blocking, deflecting, critcals and stuns, said ranges play a comparatively small part of luck in battles.
2. Stat abuse? How will that be if the stats will just be averaged, not increased or decreased?
3. If the stats are the same value, just averaged how does that nerf lower levels when they fight against higher levels?



Predator9657 -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/17/2013 19:09:44)

Great idea. Small so not really game changing but I like the fact that it takes from luck and gives to skill.



Mother1 -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/17/2013 19:32:37)

@ Submit

Finding out who you are going against is random yes, however going into a fight and knowing what you will hit each and every time (warranted no other factors come into play) will discourage some players Especially lower levels who have not only a build but stat disadvantage. Especially with the way balance is now this will help the overused builds (Quick kill builds and super tanks) more than the other builds.

As for scripting it will be this. as it is now you can do calculations and know you will hit between x and y. However do you know exactly what you will do? No you don't however under your system you will always know what you can do since it will be X - Y = Z. So with each attack I will know exactly what I will hit which in turns scripts the fight. You want less luck but at the same time scripting battles (which is what this will do) isn't the best way to resolve that.




Predator9657 -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/18/2013 11:24:43)

^

quote:

(warranted no other factors come into play)


You can't just ignore what you call "other factors". Blocks, Deflections, Criticals can have a big impact on battles.

quote:

however going into a fight and knowing what you will hit each and every time


quote:

So with each attack I will know exactly what I will hit which in turns scripts the fight.


How can you accuse it of causing scripting if the main thing it does is make the ingame (in the battle) calculations quicker/simpler, since these calculations cannot be made before you enter the battle? The randomness of your opponent, his build (stats+skills+weapons+cores) will definitely ensure that you wont be able to "prepare a script" until the actual battle has started. Is there any harm in allowing players to prepare a more precise battle plan after they have seen their opponents build?

quote:

Especially lower levels who have not only a build but stat disadvantage. Especially with the way balance is now this will help the overused builds (Quick kill builds and super tanks) more than the other builds.


Since the stats are not being increased or decreased, just averaged, I'm still wondering how some builds/classes/levels will have an advantage over others if this suggestion were to be implemented. Maybe you have some evidence to back up your claim?



Mysterion. -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/18/2013 19:24:31)

quote:

How can you accuse it of causing scripting if the main thing it does is make the ingame (in the battle) calculations quicker/simpler, since these calculations cannot be made before you enter the battle? The randomness of your opponent, his build (stats+skills+weapons+cores) will definitely ensure that you wont be able to "prepare a script" until the actual battle has started. Is there any harm in allowing players to prepare a more precise battle plan after they have seen their opponents build?

It seems you do not know what scripting is.
Scripting is when all moves can be calculated on before-hand, there will not be any difference in the damages, which would ''script'' the battles entirely.

This will make the game calculatable entirely, which is (in my opinion) not fun at all.
There should be randomness in what can happen, or no player has a chance to win from another when his/her build is a complete counter to another.
Which would make builds have an advantage over others, like Mother has mentioned.

Damage/Defence/Resistance ranges are all but bad for this game.
If there is one thing that needs change, it is the chance of a luck factor (block/deflect/critical/first turn) to appear.



Predator9657 -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/19/2013 11:14:19)

quote:

Scripting is when all moves can be calculated on before-hand, there will not be any difference in the damages, which would ''script'' the battles entirely.


My point is that the depending on your opponents (which is random) their stats can vary greatly, so removing ranges wont increase scripting much more than it already is.



Ranloth -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/19/2013 11:52:05)

It will. Average will remain the same which is all that counts, so why not keep the ranges in order to allow weaker opponents to be able to compete? If the average remains the same, there is no problem with keeping ranges. Make it fixed numbers and it will be scripted yet the numbers shown will be average of that of ranges. So why change it? A little bit of randomness isn't that bad. Getting rid of luck won't do much if you want to take out ranges, the problem is with the effects that work off probabilities, not ranges.



Mother1 -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/19/2013 11:55:28)

@ Predator

Even with different builds as it stands now you can't say exactly what you will hit in every situation that is what makes the fight unscripted damage wise. However removing ranges and fixing number so we can have exact calculations will just add another script to battles since it will script battle damage in all areas.

That is the point I have been trying to bring up.




Exploding Penguin -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/19/2013 12:02:16)

Not supported, because while I'm opposed to things like passive luck cores and shadow arts, the damage range isn't that severe and can easily be worked around unless in a desperate situation.



Khalix -> RE: Remove Att/Def/Res range (6/19/2013 12:54:59)

Here's my crash course logic on damage/defense ranges:

10-12 + 30 weapon
10-12 Defense (Due to malf or smoke)

I'll do an average of 30 damage because I assume (10-12) - (10-12) = 0
So instead of a minimum-maximum damage of 28-32, I just go "Meh, it's only a small difference"

---

In a way, even without this fancy suggestion, I could script an entire fight (Judging from w/l of enemies, their abilities and energy)
... Unless they pull 3 crits in a row. That's probably where I start sobbing.



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