RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (Full Version)

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Faerdin -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 2:54:33)

DragonFable is not unfamiliar with Boss Monsters that have a substantial amount of Bonus. Doctor When is notorious for it, in fact. :)

As for increasing the cooldown of Mana-burning Skills (Or adding a cooldown to begin with in some cases), it could work. But Mana-burning Skills would become significantly less useful as a result. Almost, even, to the point where Mana-burning may not be considered a practical strategy.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 4:09:10)

Yeah, but not enough of them have any worthwhile bonus - I think on average it's around 10, and the average high is like 20.

Not if the strategy called for it. If it's an enemy that is mana heavy, and doesn't regen mana ever, than even if the mana skill is a 5 turn CD, as long as you can stallgame long enough, eventually their own usage, and your mana-burn skill will get them. Although, 5 turns maybe heavy, and thus a CD discussion would be opened. But that's how you improve a game, by getting everyones thoughts on something and finding the good medium.

And some bosses that rely on the mana to use buffing skills, and use it up so fast that you wouldn't think to get rid of their mana would always help to prevent this kinda thing. Say, uses ___amount of mana to increase his damage, another ___amount of mana for bonus, etc. Than once he's out of mana/buffs starts to attack - that would be another way they use mana, and it wouldn't be 100% smart to wait out their mana ending or focusing on attacking their mana. But should you be playing a class like DL, and end up lasting long enough that they run out of mana, would make it better, since you wouldn't have to worry about the buffs anymore and the stall game would shorten in time rather than staying a multi-hundred turn fight.

If there was an enemy that used up all his mana to put us at 1hp no matter our max hp, that would be devastating due to it removing out base heal reserves and leave us in a critical situation. But since it takes his mana he can only use it once :)


"Not every boss has to be difficult. And if it is difficult, it's only fun if it's doesn't irritate me. I'm not someone that likes getting frustrated for fighting something that's just plain broken. I play a game to have fun, not to stress myself out even more. When I'm up for a challenge, I'll seek it out. I don't want it forced on me just so I can progress farther in the game." - DJ9K
^My take on things like having to fight Manacrest or Jayson with bad gear as a non-DA.. I just don't think it'd be worth it. It would very quickly make me stop playing the game. And I know I'm not the only one.

Yes, some people love super difficult games, but the majority do not. A static strategy will always exist in an RPG, there will always be a boss that it doesn't work on, there will always be an enemy that's designed so you can't beat it(even though you might find a way anyways), and an enemy that you can't lose to(unless you purposely die to it). These things are true. And so it is of course best if these factors are taken in consideration when thinking about subtleties such as boss difficulty, and mana consumption.
I find Jayson's difficulty appropriate, since he's a super enemy summoned from who knows where. But Manacrest may have been a little over the top with that nuke. I'm hoping we see much easier bosses in the near future for all the minor ones we'll be up against. After all, if every boss is as hard as the final one, than it's just not memorable and simply becomes static.



Faerdin -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 4:27:05)

There is a difference between imposing unreasonable amounts of difficulty on a player and increasing the level of difficulty to encourage some adaptation of strategy or equipment choice. If one finds the latter to be trying to the point of quitting DragonFable, then I personally feel that the RPG may not be a suitable video game genre for them. Growing, learning, and ultimately becoming more powerful is the point of RPGs to begin with.

Why? Because when we die over and over again against the dreaded Boss Monster- setting off each time to level up or hunt for better equipment with every loss- the victory we finally achieve feels that much more sweet because we have overcome what was once insurmountable. We told ourselves, "This thing is impossible!" But we beat it. We beat the impossible, and Lords that feels good.

None of the Boss Monsters we have faced in the past few weeks- Jaysun, Mysterious G, ManaCrest- have been impossibly difficult. We have seen a massive spike in difficulty, that is true, but that is coming from what had once been virtually no difficulty. Non-DA players have more pressure upon them since they do not have the advantages of those with Dragon Amulets, but they have not been out of reach. As Ash had said, the Boss Fights could be substantially harder.

But this is only the beginning.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 5:13:50)

Only to some. Some consider the RPG genre to be the epitome of story gaming. The difficulty holds no meaning whatsoever to them, as long as the story they play is good and draws them in. In an RPG, you play the role you're given, you follow the story, and you lead the character you've been given control of to the end of his story, wherever that may be.
And to others it is a genre full of exploration. A world to explore and have adventures on as you travel about, seeing what it holds, facing its dangers, finding all of its treasures. Rather they become the strongest they can be, or strong at all, does not matter to them. As long as they get to experience what that RPG world has to offer for them.

"How do you kill a game? You say it sucks. Say a game sucks, and people will think it sucks. How does a game kill itself? By having something that the majority of people can't do, defeat, win, or by simply being too difficult. People begin to think it sucks, and will say it sucks. And more people will begin to think it sucks." - I forgot who said that, but it's an actual quote I read somewhere.
Yes, the current bosses we have now are not too hard, they're simply bothersome. Though, to some, they may be too difficult. The masses are different from the elite. The elite are often self-separating from the masses.

I don't care if 10% of the players can do something easy, and another 39% can do it okay. If 51% cannot beat an enemy, it's likely too difficult. It's called the majority rule. When balancing something, you have to put yourself and your own interests aside, and look at things from as many points of views as possible.

Like you said, if they implemented mana-usage than the new static would become stalling out the mana, or mana-burning before going offensive. This would 'cause more harm than good due to there being fewer classes with a mana-attacking skill than ones that do. That would cause an even larger amount of classes to cease to be used. Becoming more unbalanced.
However, as the majority have said, Jaysons stun lock and heal spam are too much. So there needs to be a change there. The masses have deemed it more annoying than fun, thus it should be looked into.

Now, when you're fighting an elite enemy, say Seppy, Jayson(when he's being serious), and Akriloth, it is in the nature of the fight to be stupidly difficult. These are the enemies that we should strive for that good feeling of accomplishment. Seppy being unbeatable, we never got to actually fight and defeat him in a legitimate fight - that was a buzzkill. However, on the contrary, we had Wargoth, which even though SIW is impossible as of current, his normal was very hard, and it felt GREAT to beat him. But he was one of those enemies, one that SHOULD be that hard.
I would hope that big guy in the blue armour(who's name I'm temporarily unable to think of.. bad memory FTW!) who's basically leading the Rose, isn't the same strength as the other bosses we fight along the rose saga. He should be leagues above them in difficulty. But if that's going to be the case, three times harder than current Jayson, would be very frustrating and irritating for a non-DA casual player, don't you think?

Anyways, back on subject of the forum

I think another great addition they've had were dual and triple bosses. Some doubled out CD's! That was a great addition - but it's a little ridiculous when it gets to 10k turns... so I'm thinking that she should have something like that more, but cap it out so it doesn't force you into using only basics. You know, like a skill with a cool down that adds like 3 turns to your currently cooling down skills. Of course one that can only be used once every like.. 5 turns?
Would you guys like to see that on an enemy?



Therril Oreb -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 6:11:55)

The biggest problem here is that things have been very easy for everyone for a long time now. All normal fights are 1-hit KO's (or close to it) and boss fights were only monsters with more HP.
Now the last few bosses were actually legit bosses. They were different, more HP, decent damage and special abilities. This sudden change was sudden and took all of us by surprise.
This sudden spike makes some people say it is impossible even though it is far from it. Every boss we have had from the last few months are doable, for everyone. non-DA and DA alike.

To make a comparison, look at the evolution of games. take a decade or two ago, when nintendo games rose up. Games were difficult, very difficult, but the players adapted and games turned into a test of skill and wits and not just how good you are in farming and hoarding items/gold. We suddenly got this as well, we had an easy go through and suddenly, we come against this big challenge. But again, we should adapt to it.

A game is tiresome without challenges, I have been waiting for challenges for some time now and I am glad these came. You could perhaps say that difficulty could have gone up more gradually rather then suddenly a series of strong bosses. But I wholehearted disagree that bosses are too difficult. And DA or non-DA doesn't matter. Only DmK (which is meant to be OP) could breeze through most fights. Any other class could have difficulties with these fights and I am fine with that.

To quote part of your post DJ9K:
quote:

I don't care if 10% of the players can do something easy, and another 39% can do it okay. If 51% cannot beat an enemy, it's likely too difficult. It's called the majority rule. When balancing something, you have to put yourself and your own interests aside, and look at things from as many points of views as possible.


The 10% are those elite's, the guys that already made sure to have the best strategies ready. The 39% are those that adapted quickly to the change. The 51% are those that have trouble with it. Difficulty isn't set by how many find something too hard because we are all of different ages, some are smarter then others, others are good in strategising. We are one community, the lovable thing about this community is that we can help each other.

A boss too hard? We are here to help each other, lift those that have troubles up and move forward. Those 51% need help from the 49% that passed the fights and it should be done that way. That is why I love this community. When is a fight too tough? When there is only a single way that is very hard to do or can only be done by sheer luck, then a fight should be nerfed. But these fights are all doable, some people just need some help. [;)]



SteinHauser -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 9:41:07)

quote:

The 10% are those elite's, the guys that already made sure to have the best strategies ready. The 39% are those that adapted quickly to the change. The 51% are those that have trouble with it. Difficulty isn't set by how many find something too hard because we are all of different ages, some are smarter then others, others are good in strategising. We are one community, the lovable thing about this community is that we can help each other.


I agree with this,the difficulty of a game isn't set by the boss itself,or the mobs,it's set by the learning curve,how artifical is the difficulty,a bad or not-so-balanced game would put a player against a non-scaled level 80 boss,but DragonFable always scales the mob with your level.

The game punishes impatience and rewards thinking with your head,yes you can plain "Power" your way on any quest,since you will always make 800 DMG if you have 200 luck,but there's a point where you must fight the boss,and you cant just "Power" anymore,you must think of a strategy to win,the 10% of the players will obviously see the swarm attack of JaySun coming beforehand and use "Shield" or a debuff skill,the 35% of the players will die once (or twice) before they can come up with a strategy to win,and the 51% will put all their points on endurance and try to yolotank JaySun,and will end up getting stunlocked over and over and over.

Let me put this in context,you have a chest before a Boss,the boss will constantly use fire-based attacks,makes sense since you're on a cave full of fire elementals,in the chest you will find several water-based weapons that cost 0 gold,the 10% of the players already have a good water weapon on their inventory,39% will buy a water weapon from the chest and 51% will just try to yolospeedrun the dungeon and ignore all the loot (and puns),it's not the fault of the game if you die over and over and over in the same place,the game gives you a lot of resources to win,it would be unfair if the fire boss is non-scaled level 80.






DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 9:48:40)

quote:

boss too hard? We are here to help each other, lift those that have troubles up and move forward. Those 51% need help from the 49% that passed the fights and it should be done that way. That is why I love this community.

I agree, that is one thing that is extremely great about this community. However, not every player is a part of our community. This is why I'd like to see more in game notes about visiting the forums! We have a button to visit the FaceBook page right on the book, why not the forums?

quote:

When is a fight too tough? When there is only a single way that is very hard to do or can only be done by sheer luck, then a fight should be nerfed.

Or when bad luck can make it impossible to successfully finish off an enemy - such as a heal happening every other turn.
This was the initial reason we got into this large discussion. Infinite is too much. The same reason DragonLord is nearly OP - infinite, or near infinite sustain.

Now, while I can see that everyone here has agreed that these current bosses aren't impossible or too strong yet - if the wrong conditions are met, some of them are not able to be beaten on extreme mode. Now, while I understand that's why they call it Extreme Mode, it's still slightly irritating to think about for players who look at balance as 'everyone has a fair chance'.
Yes, the characters I tested on were a bit underpowered, but I'm sure some players out there are quite underpowered. If so, than we may end up experiencing a real threat when the enemies start getting even stronger. Next thing next, some people won't be able to beat bosses on normal mode. However, we don't want the bosses to get any weaker, we like them this strong, and so we want to try and find a medium that would balance it out for those who are far too weak to handle themselves for now.
Thus we thought up the long lost point of mana consumption, cooldown/waits on special attacks/skills, and several other ideas. Not to make these bosses easier, but fair for all players. Jayson could be just as strong as he is now, but if we made it so he at least gives us 1 turn between stuns, we won't lose all our health before we even get to hit him. If he has to wait 2-3 turns to heal again, he can't instantly heal himself back to half HP when it took us 3-4 turns to do 1/4 his HP. If it costed mana, than even if we're too weak to out damage his heal even if it's got a 3 turn wait, he'll eventually run out of mana and stop healing.

This way, even the 5% of the 51% that can't handle a normal Jayson, would get a chance without having to farm or grind.

-AE games were originally created for casual gaming, with the start of the Lunch Break game Adventure Quest at Battleon.com. Eventually they began to make DragonFable, still meant as a Casual Lunch Break game, just with more depth to it. And eventually it became a much faster pace game. - I do keep this mind. Many players don't want to grind or farm, they want to play it when they have a few minutes, than stop playing when they don't, and still be able to play through the game.

And we're getting off topic of what the forum was meant for.



dragon_monster -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 10:17:23)

Okay I do not know who makes the majority of the df players but free player have serious problems with the new bosses now to defeat the new bosses you need decent defense like the shield to work and to blind them now from what I know rogue and mage can do that but warriors? Do not now tell me is it fair for free warrior players to die time and time and time again against these 3 new extremely powerful bosses and that with guest no offense but it is frustrating. Again if you take guests you increase the hp of the bosses and it takes forever to finish the fight which is frustrating my suggestion is just get rid of the frustration and balance the bosses. I saw my cousin who is free player trying to kill manacrest with warrior and guest and men that took a couple of tries and a huge number of turns.



SteinHauser -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 10:30:39)

quote:

Now, while I can see that everyone here has agreed that these current bosses aren't impossible or too strong yet - if the wrong conditions are met, some of them are not able to be beaten on extreme mode. Now, while I understand that's why they call it Extreme Mode, it's still slightly irritating to think about for players who look at balance as 'everyone has a fair chance'.
Yes, the characters I tested on were a bit underpowered, but I'm sure some players out there are quite underpowered. If so, than we may end up experiencing a real threat when the enemies start getting even stronger. Next thing next, some people won't be able to beat bosses on normal mode. However, we don't want the bosses to get any weaker, we like them this strong, and so we want to try and find a medium that would balance it out for those who are far too weak to handle themselves for now.
Thus we thought up the long lost point of mana consumption, cooldown/waits on special attacks/skills, and several other ideas. Not to make these bosses easier, but fair for all players. Jayson could be just as strong as he is now, but if we made it so he at least gives us 1 turn between stuns, we won't lose all our health before we even get to hit him. If he has to wait 2-3 turns to heal again, he can't instantly heal himself back to half HP when it took us 3-4 turns to do 1/4 his HP. If it costed mana, than even if we're too weak to out damage his heal even if it's got a 3 turn wait, he'll eventually run out of mana and stop healing.

Well,luck certainly comes into play,i found out that he can be indeed stunned,but you need to have luck,and maybe you will be paralyzed by the special attack,or maybe you wont,that's something that i never liked about dragon fable,the luck factor,it makes it so you always have to fight a boss multiple times to see if he's possible to defeat or not.I'd fought Jaysun 5-6 times and lost 5,won 1,but it's meant to be a challenge,casual players should start their adventure by playing the orb saga.

quote:

This way, even the 5% of the 51% that can't handle a normal Jayson, would get a chance without having to farm or grind.


It would be cool if someone could complete the first two books and see how much XP he could gather,without farming o grinding,just to see what's the average level of someone at that point.But Jaysun is part of an event,yes i could argue that he isn't so OP,but he is misplaced,he could be at the same level as Xan,maybe Wargoth.But it's quite OP for a casual cutscene in the journal.

quote:

-AE games were originally created for casual gaming, with the start of the Lunch Break game Adventure Quest at Battleon.com. Eventually they began to make DragonFable, still meant as a Casual Lunch Break game, just with more depth to it. And eventually it became a much faster pace game. - I do keep this mind. Many players don't want to grind or farm, they want to play it when they have a few minutes, than stop playing when they don't, and still be able to play through the game.

I have to agree with you,DragonFable isn't a casual game anymore,but it certainly makes sense,they have 7 or so years of making DragonFable,the game HAS to evolve,i mean,the game HAS to become more difficult,if it doesn't there's no curve,no devolpement,it becomes a book.



xxDantExx -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 10:56:34)

quote:

We have a button to visit the FaceBook page right on the book, why not the forums?


well for some reason when DF started years back... there was still no book and the forums button link is already right below our screen...
so maybe it's just a redundancy if they put another button in book since there is already an existing one right below...
and moving something from one place in a web page is not just as simple as putting water from a bottle to a glass, i may not be a computer wiz but i have ideas that
making complex codes just for moving something from a game and place it in another spot could melt the brains out of and ordinary player like myself [:D]



Therril Oreb -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 11:34:29)

@dragon_monster: Yes, it is harder for a free player but not impossible and not easier. Stronger fights are not meant to be done in 5 turns. This is not a rare wave against a cultist where you play around a bit. This is a boss fight at the end of the war, it is meant to be challenging and interesting. DA players can have it easier and quicker done but a free person can still do it. Also, only take guests who can deal plenty of damage, using Artix or Robina is useless since they only do very little damage.
I never use guests for example even though I can just use Rolith as guest.

Ad for the luck factor. Tell me one game where real life luck doesn't play a factor in? There is a difference between coded luck and real life luck. When it is coded that there is a 50% chance for an attack to happen, it is possible you never witness it and it is possible it happens every turn. Does this make it unbalanced? no, not if it is meant to happen about once every two turns. I fought Jaysoon a few times and only once did he stun-lock me. Other-wise he stunned me every now and then.

I can agree that for example a healing skill shouldn't be spamable unless it doesn't heal too much, but that is a different thing.

Boss fights are meant to be long, hard and after a while perhaps tedious depending on the skills and classes being used. Overcoming this makes it feel like you accomplish something and that is what it is about.



Ash -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 12:34:24)

quote:

Now, while I can see that everyone here has agreed that these current bosses aren't impossible or too strong yet - if the wrong conditions are met, some of them are not able to be beaten on extreme mode. Now, while I understand that's why they call it Extreme Mode, it's still slightly irritating to think about for players who look at balance as 'everyone has a fair chance'.


I'm going to go ahead and stop you here. Normal is meant to beaten by anyone. Extreme mode is a voluntary challenge and not bound by the same restrictions. Extreme is meant to be a test for the players on the max end. You can't compare the two. You can reference extreme fights against each other but I can very safely say that trying to make it beaten by everyone will never be on the table for those fights.

On to the rest of the points.

quote:

Thus we thought up the long lost point of mana consumption, cooldown/waits on special attacks/skills, and several other ideas. Not to make these bosses easier, but fair for all players.

That's already been put into place on some bosses. Some require certain triggers to allow for a skill to be used, I.E. they need a DoT on you to be able to use a large attack.

quote:

Jayson could be just as strong as he is now, but if we made it so he at least gives us 1 turn between stuns, we won't lose all our health before we even get to hit him. If he has to wait 2-3 turns to heal again, he can't instantly heal himself back to half HP when it took us 3-4 turns to do 1/4 his HP. If it costed mana, than even if we're too weak to out damage his heal even if it's got a 3 turn wait, he'll eventually run out of mana and stop healing.

There's also a problem with a boss running out of mana completely. If we set a boss to use mana it has to make sense which skills use it. If a boss uses all magical abilities then all of his attacks would use mana. He would need some sort of regen or you run into a "welp torched his mana now I get to mop him up." What do we do for totally melee bosses then? They get mana regardless but yet get nuke skills. They can be put on a small sort of cooldown but then we couldn't make a boss run out of mana even if we wanted to because that brings up the, "well this one boss ran out of mana and I trounced him and this guy just ate my face and didn't use any." It requires a balance between making skills that realistically use mana and matching them up with the artwork. If an artist gets the idea for a boss from the quest writer and makes all the attacks magic looking, they are all going to have to use mana and he will need a regen.

It also brings up a thematic point that has to be addressed. You're facing Jayson, a creature that is far beyond most of the normal beings we've faced before. Does he use mana? Does he have an innate connection to whatever plane he was summoned from and can just constantly drain mana from there? Is he collecting ambient mana from the area around him? Has he just learned how to use his attacks and abilities with little to no mana cost? Does he have some sort of amulet that provides a source of mana to draw from? See the issues here when you start designing bosses?

You not only have to balance game play mechanics but also thematic's for each individual boss you're facing. Would a creature like splashy use mana to bite at me and go full xenomorph with that second mouth? Why would manacrest ever run out of mana when we're not only facing her in a breach that links to a plane full of it, but she's been infused with mana to her very core? Would the Avatar's use mana when they draw power directly from the plane's they represent? See the can of worms you open up when you start really going into it? I can come up with solutions for each boss in the game that makes sense and provides a way to balance each around either mana usage or cooldowns but does that actually fix something or does that make more work on the coders who have to go back and change each individual monster? If there's a way to balance things around cooldowns and unlocks for skills usage on monsters that would be easier to use for the moment. I'm just going to toss those at you to give you a realistic look at how to go about the discussion for solutions.

quote:

Many players don't want to grind or farm, they want to play it when they have a few minutes, than stop playing when they don't, and still be able to play through the game.

That's...kinda the opposite of what these games are. Yes, there's always a grind in RPG's. You're going to have to farm to get things. I know some people don't want to but that's not how RPG's have worked since they started.



Grandpa Oz -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 12:43:58)

I think that all of the bosses that have been introduced in book 3 are fine as they are, since all can be beaten pretty well using a party. This comes from a lvl 26 player (with DA though). Though, I'd maybe reduce the invulnerablity to Stun most recent bosses had, since that is maybe the only useful tactics for classes like warrior. But generally, I think it's fine.
However, I don't think they should become much more tricky than that even if time passes, just a from plot-perspective - Mysterious G for example, a minor boss in just one quest in a side-storyline is a lot more dangerous (in terms of gameplay) than some of the major antagonists in Book 1. Even if we assume that time has passed and everyone has gotten stronger, that seems off to me.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 13:20:06)

Prepare for too many quotes.

quote:

ou're facing Jayson, a creature that is far beyond most of the normal beings we've faced before. Does he use mana? Does he have an innate connection to whatever plane he was summoned from and can just constantly drain mana from there? Is he collecting ambient mana from the area around him? Has he just learned how to use his attacks and abilities with little to no mana cost? Does he have some sort of amulet that provides a source of mana to draw from?


Is Warlic still able to use his power to limitless points? Are the great dragons still watching over everything? There's an old saying - New Dimension, new rules. If the rules of the universe or world have defined that mana is needed, than typically even if you don't use mana prior, you're mana locked.
And yes, I would assume that his heal and shield would cost mana - consider our warriors, non mana fighters, use mana for theirs.

quote:

Extreme is meant to be a test for the players on the max end


Extreme is meant to be a slighter harder version of the normal boss - as is explained in several brackets throughout the game at earlier times with an "extreme mode" button. Never was it stated that it's meant to test high-end or end-game players only.

quote:

Would a creature like splashy use mana to bite at me and go full xenomorph with that second mouth? Why would manacrest ever run out of mana when we're not only facing her in a breach that links to a plane full of it, but she's been infused with mana to her very core? Would the Avatar's use mana when they draw power directly from the plane's they represent?


Splashy; no, and there's nothing to state that it would.
Manacrest; yes, but would regenerate her mana over time, since she can only hold so much without overloading - Warlic theory
Avatars; if they're not in their elemental plane, I'd expect it to take them twice as much mana to draw the power over through the plains.. heck probably took the quite a bit to make it from their plane to our world. - Yes x2 with extra cost.

I would also expect Seppy to use mana to use his skills, but would not expect Dr. When to use any since he uses a weapon to attack only, not skills.
I would definitely expect anything Xan does to use mana, but not Mysterious G. since he uses technology, and since his one skill STEALS mana, that shouldn't really do much. However, maybe a little mana usage for when he makes his skills stronger, using mana to increase power.

Why would I expect these things? Let's take a look at the mechanics of battle as we've seen through time. Pixies use mana to heal themselves. Warlic charges mana to use anything but normals. Nythera uses mana to use attacks. Artix uses mana to use his combo and convert it to light. EVERYTHING we do uses mana. Akriloth uses mana to use her super attacks, but not her mana steal and hp steal that in turn give us regen DoT's

Using these as the obvious basis, anyone with the ability to analyze basic data would have a very good idea what should and shouldn't take mana.

quote:

There's also a problem with a boss running out of mana completely.


Noted prior, and if people would keep to the subject that the forum was originally on, than we would have came to several thoughts of how to fix this already. We've gotten a couple down, but everyone keeps getting off subject, ignoring the thoughts we came up with earlier, and debating a point that has had the same 4 arguments stated over 5 times each instead of trying to find mediums to the original things that started this off topic debate.

quote:

Mysterious G for example, a minor boss in just one quest in a side-storyline is a lot more dangerous (in terms of gameplay) than some of the major antagonists in Book 1. Even if we assume that time has passed and everyone has gotten stronger, that seems off to me.


My main argument when I see every boss putting up a massive challenge. We're gonna get another final boss with this big blue armour of an enemy that can't actually be beat and will leave no real impact on the players because it's just another "impossible boss because of story". OR he'll end up being just as "strong"/"weak" as every other little boss we've faced and will leave no impact at all... or make him a laughing stock.. either or.

This being another good reason why getting good balancing, weaknesses other than elemental alignment, and fatal flaws in the enemies offenses and defenses that can give static and supreme strategies.
Jayson, a major boss for the Fri13 series of wars, deserves to be strong, and is at a good difficulty for just playing with us. One would expect him to be harder - but some things are considerably just as broken as me using RW against a human, dragon, or elemental. His 20% heal being used infinitive times is one of them.
ManaCrest, who is only slightly important being stronger than most fights with Xan, or Donovan, is slightly pathetic. And Mysterious G. being stronger than 99% of the enemies in B1 and B2, is just wrong. Wargoth and Davy were arguably easier than him.



dragon_monster -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 13:32:35)

quote:

Splashy; no, and there's nothing to state that it would.
Manacrest; yes, but would regenerate her mana over time, since she can only hold so much without overloading - Warlic theory
Avatars; if they're not in their elemental plane, I'd expect it to take them twice as much mana to draw the power over through the plains.. heck probably took the quite a bit to make it from their plane to our world. - Yes x2 with extra cost.

I would also expect Seppy to use mana to use his skills, but would not expect Dr. When to use any since he uses a weapon to attack only, not skills.
I would definitely expect anything Xan does to use mana, but not Mysterious G. since he uses technology, and since his one skill STEALS mana, that shouldn't really do much. However, maybe a little mana usage for when he makes his skills stronger, using mana to increase power.

Why would I expect these things? Let's take a look at the mechanics of battle as we've seen through time. Pixies use mana to heal themselves. Warlic charges mana to use anything but normals. Nythera uses mana to use attacks. Artix uses mana to use his combo and convert it to light. EVERYTHING we do uses mana. Akriloth uses mana to use her super attacks, but not her mana steal and hp steal that in turn give us regen DoT's

Using these as the obvious basis, anyone with the ability to analyze basic data would have a very good idea what should and shouldn't take mana.

True if the warrior uses mana to swing his weapon why can the avatars and a lot of bosses use magic attacks with the exeption of warlic not use mana no sense to me.



Ash -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 13:52:13)

quote:

Is Warlic still able to use his power to limitless points? Are the great dragons still watching over everything? There's an old saying - New Dimension, new rules. If the rules of the universe or world have defined that mana is needed, than typically even if you don't use mana prior, you're mana locked.
And yes, I would assume that his heal and shield would cost mana - consider our warriors, non mana fighters, use mana for theirs.

Not necessarily. Our warriors use it because that's the mechanics we use. Crossing over into another dimension doesn't always limit things. To an extent some things are changed but that would mean that several things, including the avatars, should behave differently. They don't use mana and yet by your definition they should. Just because you leave a plane doesn't mean you are either completly changed or completely cut off. Secondarily my other points still stand based on amulet's or training or simply nature of the attacks being used.

quote:

Extreme is meant to be a slighter harder version of the normal boss - as is explained in several brackets throughout the game at earlier times with an "extreme mode" button. Never was it stated that it's meant to test high-end or end-game players only.

Extreme is not meant to be a "slightly" harder boss. Extreme by it's very definition is far beyond "slightly." Extreme mode fights were designed, and meant to be, a test of the players ability and is not factored into balancing for being "beatable" like normal mode. They are a stronger version of the boss and have a scaled difficulty that is not affected nor adjusted by a "beatable" standard. At one point Rolith even went out of his way to make an "Unbeatable" version in meltface mode. Extreme isn't in the pool for "everyone to beat."

quote:

Why would I expect these things? Let's take a look at the mechanics of battle as we've seen through time. Pixies use mana to heal themselves. Warlic charges mana to use anything but normals. Nythera uses mana to use attacks. Artix uses mana to use his combo and convert it to light. EVERYTHING we do uses mana. Akriloth uses mana to use her super attacks, but not her mana steal and hp steal that in turn give us regen DoT's

Those are hard coded abilities that were put in place at the time. Each time you want something to use mana it must be coded into the monster itself. Warlic and Nythera are player controlled at those points and use mana due to the fact that they are either a player loaded armor or a guest and have to be balanced as such. Same with any guest. They are coded to use mana to use their skills but if you get the chance to fight them they don't. For example, when you face Warlic in Xan's fortress he does not use mana when 30 seconds before as your guest he did. Akriloth (who, for the record is male not female), uses mana in that fight to allow for the mana drain skill to make sense. Very few other monsters do that. Monster A.I. also sucks. That's why you have to force it into a corner with lockouts and "you can only use this attack when the enemy has a DoT" type deals. It's been that way for quite a while and even if a monster had mana they'd nuke you to the ground with every bit of mana they had and keep doing it every time their regen put them at that level. It wouldn't be any different from now except for the fact that now we can mitigate that instead of just tossing mana costs at the problem.

quote:

And Mysterious G. being stronger than 99% of the enemies in B1 and B2, is just wrong. Wargoth and Davy were arguably easier than him.

How do you figure that? We have no idea what his true power is in books 1 and 2. Who says he isn't very powerful? There's no basis to rank him weaker than another boss simply because we never saw him in action. WE have nothing to base power levels on of a multitude of enemies, even some we've beaten in the past. By that logic the Irismancer should be easily defeated at all times simply because he *might* have used his full strength all those years ago. Sometimes people surprise you and deciding that someone can't without a reason WHY they shouldn't be as powerful as another boss isn't a good enough reason.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 14:23:10)

quote:

hey don't use mana and yet by your definition they should.


No where does it say they don't use mana - only when in our battles do they not. And that's only because the current version doesn't have any enemies using mana.
If, by your definition, they don't use mana, than why would they need to remain in their plains to keep from weakening? It was stated, that Warlic is the only one whom can match them, and that they'd rather not remain outside their domains too long for the effects it has on them. - Mana is the source of magic in the world of DF, this is why the Rose is after the Mana Core, the Avatars are magical beings of plains of the 8 main elements.
By the definition of the game itself, by simply taking those 2 facts into consideration, yes, they really should be using mana. Or be made of it. - always an argument there, that they are masses of mana infused with an elemental beings soul and brought to life.

quote:

At one point Rolith even went out of his way to make an "Unbeatable" version in meltface mode.


I miss meltface - where high-end players do get challenged.
But if I ever find that fight again, that explains it's "A little tougher than the normal boss." I'll grab a pic of it.

quote:

Akriloth (who, for the record is male not female)


Arguable until I see a staff member state it - s/he's called both in game in multiple scenarios. /spiteful

quote:

For example, when you face Warlic in Xan's fortress he does not use mana when 30 seconds before as your guest he did.

One of the best examples, thank you. Another big reason they need to implement this feature. The inconsistency is definitely not right :)

quote:

It's been that way for quite a while and even if a monster had mana they'd nuke you to the ground with every bit of mana they had and keep doing it every time their regen put them at that level. It wouldn't be any different from now except for the fact that now we can mitigate that instead of just tossing mana costs at the problem.

Okay, here; - is taking out the mana worth wasting the time for? Do the attacks the enemy uses fit mana-use common sense? Would this be more weapon special, or skill? Is this a basic attack add on or an extra?
Not all skills use mana, DL for instance, has 2 attacks that unlock after using the other, and the such.
We'll use Jayson again since he has 3 that fit all 3 thoughts. Jayson's nuke requiring his one DoT to use is definitely a cause to not cost mana. His stun comes from his snakes Venom, should it cost mana, debatable. Perhaps yes for normal, no for extreme. Should his heal cost mana - in most cases I'd say yes. If they'd use something like "absorbs the darkness around him" since he does in some attacks for the DoT has "The darkness grows", than I'd be willing to say no.

Situations make a huge difference in if it should or shouldn't, and how often they use what uses mana, how much mana it uses, and how difficult it is to actually kill the enemy are all factors that would make it different. If they use a massive amount of mana, than they'd get limited uses of a skill, or they'd have plenty of uses if it has low cost. If they have large amounts of mana, or low amounts. Etc.

quote:

How do you figure that? We have no idea what his true power is in books 1 and 2. Who says he isn't very powerful? There's no basis to rank him weaker than another boss simply because we never saw him in action.

RPG logic, boss fights, rule #...I think 4, might be 5. Minor Vs. Major. Minor should only ever find itself stronger than a major boss if the situation is found to be greater than 25% of the story later. Optional bosses excluded.


Is it just me or does he remind you of a Leprechaun? meh, just me probably.


Anyways, lemme know when we can get back on subject - repeating the same reasons to the same arguments over and over has gotten old.



Ash -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 14:41:55)


/waves. So you've had two points answered by one. He's a he and extreme mode /=/ always beatable.



That example was to prove a point. All player controlled guests/armors will use mana except in very certain circumstances. That's how the things are balanced. That's how they are designed to work. It's what allows you to have two bars full of attacks and the monsters get 5 or 6 max. Having mana costs and cooldowns that you use does not equate to the game AI taking over and providing the same choice. Go play in DF PvP and you'll see what I mean. Giving the AI a choice of skills and you get a very twitchy game engine.


You've also illustrated the point I was trying to make. Thematically he's evil and drawing power from darkness. Why would anything he uses cost mana when either he's using a snake appendage to bite you, using venom he created in his own body or he's drawing the darkness around him and shielding/healing himself with it? That's the problem with most bosses. It's a point that's been debated several times and even I've leaned towards adding mana costs but at the moment it's a side thought to let the actual releases get coded and pushed out. It's used when it's needed to allow for extra play room and an extra level of "ooo cool, I can drain some of its mana and stop an attack I don't want."


You also have to remember that monster AI sucks and having to make it logically think and plan and work things out beyond, "me have mana...me use nuke...me regen...me use nuke" is beyond the DF engine. Regardless of if it had large or small it's going to default to a certain one and then get locked into a cycle. With the way it is now Verly is trying to make stunlocks and the like happen less and actually allow varied move use. Adding mana costs to it is one more layer that doesn't actually have to exhist if internal cooldowns and lockouts of moves takes precedence. It's more a matter of making it work then shoving mana costs in and making it works twice.

You're also not accepting the point I tried to make. Who dictated who is a major and minor character. Just because someone is a background character doesn't mean they can't step in and be a heavy weight. It's up to the person writing the quest and in this case M.G. was meant to be pretty powerful.



Verlyrus -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/19/2013 12:12:52)

One reason I stay away from monsters having mana usage is that it is often redundant with other skill restrictions.
Actually, I just got an idea. *scribbles down idea for later*

Adding more dynamics and ways to stop powerful skills means that in order to stay challenging, these powerful skills must become even more powerful. Right now, I'm working on introducing new and different mechanics within the same skill dynamics, if that makes sense. That way, (hopefully) instead of seeing bosses and monsters constantly getting stronger with each week, we see a variety of nicely challenging enemies. For example, Manacrest and Mysterious G have very different skillsets, yet can both be challenging at first. Jaysun was a special case. Not every boss is going to be Jaysun. :P



Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/19/2013 12:22:34)

For a sec I thought you said "Now every boss is going to be Jaysun" and I almost started crying tears of joy xD



Sentimental Melody -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/19/2013 15:10:43)

*lifts head* Is the argument over semantics finished?

Well, the one reason I mention mana costs is because we have these mana-attacking skills that are almost never useful. It's sad and neglected. xP Otherwise I prefer cooldowns or some other way to address how often a special can be used.

However, variety in boss fights rather than simple increasing the difficulty is the way to go, imo. What else is the point of becoming more strategy-oriented if you haven't got bosses with different characteristics that make you alter your approach? So I'm feeling hopeful about where Verlyrus is going with this.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/20/2013 7:07:04)

quote:

Is the argument over semantics finished?


Yeah I finally slapped myself on the face and told myself to be the mature one and stop arguing the same thing over and over. - Things end quickly when 1 person decides to stop altogether. :3

quote:

Manacrest and Mysterious G have very different skillsets, yet can both be challenging at first

I think the only challenging thing about M.G. was fighting 3 enemies with no skills. Basically a repeat of Z but even more skill blockage.
Manacrest isn't challenging >_> just has a really easy to prevent super nuke that some didn't prevent.

quote:

Adding more dynamics and ways to stop powerful skills means that in order to stay challenging, these powerful skills must become even more powerful.

Redundant if we can just wipe out the Mana too fast. - Of course, is we are using a class that can't attack mana, it's just gets annoying.
Of course, even with spreading of skills/special attacks, if they can use it a limitless amount of times, especially if it's a regenerative move, they'll just outlast us in the end if we can't power through them. And it will come down to more luck than anything.

quote:

However, variety in boss fights rather than simple increasing the difficulty is the way to go, imo.


+1 - Agree in full. After all, fighting the a harder version of the same thing is just En and Tropy all over. Plus, my point of "every boss being as hard as the final boss or just an impossible final boss will make the game blah and have no impact on the players" remains and is easily null with simply moderately difficult fun and different bosses than having our uber hard finisher at the end xD



wingedwolf -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/22/2013 1:04:03)

So, I just fought Baron Jaysun Valtrith. An excellent example why I haven't played this game in months, and will likely not play again until I forget. Seriously, unending strings of paralyzing moves followed by being punished with the cut scene again. Shouldn't these bosses be beatable without the ultimate armors? Is that the point? If this is the direction it has gone I very disappointed.



Sflamin -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/22/2013 1:59:59)

^Many people have beaten it including non-DA. Pick Heavy hitter classes like KAA/DK/SW and bring a guest or two with you.



cenarius345 -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/22/2013 3:02:50)

One point that hasn't been brought up yet is that, with the exception of the new classes (read: SW, Atealan, etc.), most of the classes in the game are not up to Book 3 balance standards. Is it possible with some classes to pull off a victory with your teeth? Yes, and if luck falls in your favor then even more so. However, the vast majority of NDA classes really are crippled by being sub-par balance-wise on top of only having half the skills. As Sflamin's post above me states, the most frequently used armors for new content are either the new classes, or DC-purchased miscellaneous armors such as KAA. I believe it was also mentioned that nearly every class has multiple useless/redundant skills, with even DL having at least three.

Personally, I'm glad that the difficulty of the bosses (and monsters in general) is increasing, because of this as well as the reasons posted by others. As the difficulty of the game increases, threads like this will show up, and there's a chance that the viability of older classes like Guardian and Pirate will be re-examined, which should in turn lead to a general rebalance amongst the game's class armors.



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