RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (Full Version)

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The Jop -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 18:09:57)

Neutral CC still isn't banned either, unless an ArchKnight says it is.




Gorillo Titan -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 18:30:55)

We know that but iron hide will most likely be banned.




Skurge -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:10:14)

quote:

Quick question about this
quote:

No card customization restrictions. Duelists can use any CC cards they have at their disposal.
I thought Iron Hide CC was being banned for the tourney?


Hello everyone,

Yes, this will most definitely be the case here. Participants that use the CC will be instantly disqualified if they are found using the customizable IronHide (keep in mind that the CC'ed IronHide provides 1,100 defense, rather than 1,000!) I've updated the rule list so there's no confusion, completely overlooked it when making the draft. [X(]

Thanks and good luck!
-S




The Jop -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:15:48)

If you're banning iron hide but not corruption then I'd like to remove my name from the tournament. You think giving people the ability to do massive damage but not defend themselves is a good idea?




Skurge -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:23:13)

The base IronHide and potential Defense CC are more than enough to protect against at least two corruptions. If your opponent has more, it's likely he/she wasn't going to win anyway as it's incredibly inefficient/luck-based to CC more than two.

If you'd still like to resign, you're free to delete or edit your post accordingly.




The Jop -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:24:38)

Really, you think that protects against 4000 damage? I'm definitely resigning. Good luck with your battles.




Gorillo Titan -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:26:27)

Just use thok its fun and games winning doesn't matter >.> its not like you get a reward people.




The Jop -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:28:10)

Thok has only one iron hide and iron hide CC is banned, why would I use him?




Gorillo Titan -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:30:27)

You can quit if you want dude. People gonna complain either way it seems if iron hide is banned or if its not banned.

Better than people getting CC limited to a set amount though no one can really tell if someone stuck to that rule or not since we can't see people's CC.


Use a monk then if iron hide is the problem.




The Jop -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:35:11)

Then corruption is the problem. I have no corruption CC which is why I hate this rule and think it's ridiculous. He's allowing people to CC the most powerful offensive skill without letting them use a defensive skill. Anyone without corruption CC is dead, it's just foolish. Casual players are doomed, and people wonder why so few people join these tournaments...




clintonian -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:35:46)


IGN: clinton

Timezone: server time





Gorillo Titan -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:40:34)

use shield cards then.




The Jop -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:41:57)

Shields are terrible against corruption, you have to know that. I could put up 2000 shields (4 slots in my hand) in one turn and they would be gone by the time I charged if I had two corruptions on me. Plus there would be another 2000 damage to go after that and I would probably not draw many more shields the next turn.




Gorillo Titan -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:49:05)

Anything possible with nuetral characters I beat a level 15 monk with a sir gallahad and had no CC has to use cat reflex to go through the 5000 counter he had built up took a little over 2 hours but I did it.




The Jop -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 20:53:35)

Yeah, but in this case you would be overwhelmed by damage without many ways to mitigate it. In that case you found a way to get through his defense, but there's no way to outlast corruptions for 2 hours.




The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 21:33:40)

I'm glad to see Iron Hide banned as there's nothing that can be done if a player chooses to be stubborn and wall up behind full IH CC's and draw the match out indefinitely. Corruption, while being a very strong offensive card, doesn't have the potential to sabotage the tournament.

I find Skurge's point that more than two Corruptions are overkill is a good one (I'd be remiss to reject Skurge's advice about neutral when he annihilated me earlier in practice for this tournament) and it's lamentable that CC's like Corruption are so much more easily obtained through SG packs. That being said, the native 2 Iron Hides that Monk and a few other free characters have can soften Corruption, and Counters/Shields are very effective at rendering opponents' Iron Hides a waste of energy. In addition, Empower allows for instant offensive conversion at the same or greater efficiency than a fully-converted Corruption. Clinton has combined these factors to beat opponents who have Corruption and Iron Hide CC's (including me) without using them himself.

It'd be extremely unfortunate if The Jop didn't participate as he's not only the defending champion but I also believe he's the only player to have participated in all tournaments thus far. However, banning CC's to accommodate players' incomplete arsenals rather than for the sake of the tournament could lead to a slippery slope situation. (Vertigo Beast's suggestion that 1 Iron Hide be allowed is problematic for similar reasons, as someone could have multiple copies equipped with no way of being detected and discard the less timely one(s) each cycle if one additional Iron Hide weren't already enough for impenetrable defence. I have 15 Iron Hide CC's but still maintain that CC Iron Hide can't be allowed as it would break the tournament.)

The Jop, I encourage you to try to overcome the odds as you've done before and I'll add that I for my part won't use Corruption CC's against you in the event that you participate and we're matched up against each other.




DeathGuard -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 21:47:44)

I have to agree with The Jop here.
You're trying to prevent spamming of Iron Hides making battles to take less time, but the permission of adding Corruption will make this awfully faster.
I could easily just choose a character whose deck has 2 Iron Hides and equipped 3 CCs at will. Then I can discard attack cards to get Neutralize, Corruption, Iron Hides and Shields faster. Do you think that will be fun? Not at all.

Restrictions/Requirements aren't always a good thing. If anything, I feel unsatisfied by the decision taken. I feel like I'm being forced to go on offensive. I just hope they retake this into consideration because if they do this with certain elements: e.g. Light, the tournament won't be enjoyable at all.

Also about players being able to use shields to "counter" Corruption effects, that's just a bluff. Shields aren't as strong as Iron Hides and using 2 Iron Hides would stand more of a chance than using
2 Shields, specially against corruption.

If I see battles turn out to be a spam of who can CC more of Corruption and draw it before you die, I will forfeit as well.




One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 21:59:34)

Unfortunately my work schedule is preventing from putting any time into oversoul this week so i can't ready myself.

I'll be resigning as well but because of a lack of time instead of the ruling on cards.




Gorillo Titan -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 22:16:37)

Just gonna say this you can't make everyone happy and also my CC build would of been 3 iron hides and two corruptions. Lol

You have a big problem with corruption if you ban it you have to ban boss verily and witch and thok because you can't tell if it's the CC or the regular one and a lot of free players would most likely be mad at a banning of thok.




Vertigo Beast -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 22:37:11)

Well heres what I've got to say about it. If you're going to ban CC'ing Iron Hides, you should probably ban CC'ing corruption as well. Don't ban characters with corruption, because those characters are fine as they are. If someone uses a Character that shouldn't have a base Corruption thats easy enough to tell, and if theres only one base corruption they aren't going to be able to spam it so if you see 2 corruptions show up when they should really only have one, thats easy enough to tell as well. Even if they do try to cheat and get away with it by just using the more timely one of the two, then so be it. Honestly, this is a friendly tournament. It's not like you win anything other than bragging rights in the end. I think we can all be civil enough to just be fair about not CCing Iron Hides or Corruption. If you're gonna cheat just for bragging rights go ahead, but I'll warn you, you won't actually enjoy it.

How hard is it to just be a good person?




@Below

I mean more like 1 right after the other, I know it's fairly easy to get one and then like 3 turns later get it again. You're also not looking at the key question...




Gorillo Titan -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 22:40:03)

With the RNG you can easily draw a corruption before the first one runs out its unlikely but its possible to happen.




DeathGuard -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/10/2014 22:45:33)

@Vertigo: That's what I want as well. Just ban CC corruption not characters with Corruption. It should be easy enough to check if a character has or not a corruption by looking at the wiki.

Pretty simple as banning Iron Hides. People will say that some characters doesn't have corruption but that doesn't means it shouldn't be banned, some characters have 2 IH already having an advantage over other characters with 1 IH but such characters possess 1 corruption sometimes. Pretty fair imo, that's why I don't see a problem with banning CC Corruption.
If anything, Thok is a pretty good balanced character if you say you don't have the cards you don't want and it's free.




Skurge -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/11/2014 0:11:59)

quote:

Then corruption is the problem. I have no corruption CC which is why I hate this rule and think it's ridiculous.

Just because you do not have corruption does not mean it should be banned from the tournament. Additionally, please don't try to dismiss the fact that there are competitive Neutral characters which can counter a Corruption/Iron Hide deck (Dylligraphy's Taro, for example, used Counters/CR to counter DM's attacks and IronHides to counter corruptions. He played the character exceptionally well and it did great).

quote:

Shields are terrible against corruption, you have to know that. I could put up 2000 shields (4 slots in my hand) in one turn and they would be gone by the time I charged if I had two corruptions on me.

Shields alone aren't the greatest against corruption, but when stacked with a character's base IronHide, it works perfectly fine. Saying that Corruption has absolutely no counter is an incredibly weak argument, solely because of the IronHides already available to Neutral characters.

quote:

You're trying to prevent spamming of Iron Hides making battles to take less time, but the permission of adding Corruption will make this awfully faster.
I could easily just choose a character whose deck has 2 Iron Hides and equipped 3 CCs at will. Then I can discard attack cards to get Neutralize, Corruption, Iron Hides and Shields faster. Do you think that will be fun? Not at all.

quote:

I feel like I'm being forced to go on offensive.

This is not the case at all. Characters like Thok and Taro are perfect counters to Corruption-decks, although being slightly more aggressive. If you feel like you're being "forced" to go offensive, make your own deck that synergizes with counters and defenses and try that. The reality is, when participating in a tournament, you're normally not going to have a wide-range of choices in play styles. Compare it to any other card game - there are decks which do well and those which don't. If you don't like the competitive decks, then you're likely not going to do well in competitive tournaments, especially with OverSoul's lack of deck-customization.

I'm going to make one last note and remind everyone that a tournament requires full commitment. Please don't sign up and forfeit mid-bracket just because you are too frustrated or annoyed with something. I had a few participants in the Energy tournament that tried to forfeit because their opponents were taking too long. Forfeiting in the middle of the bracket creates far too much unnecessary changes, normally resulting in multiple matches being thwarted. If you do forfeit on claims like this, I wouldn't be surprised if you were disqualified from the next tournament as well - should we have one.

~Skurge




kakarot1123 -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/11/2014 0:13:16)

I think it says a lot about the competitive forum community for OverSoul if most of us want certain CC banned because it'll make matches longer, not because it's a balance issue. Whether it changes anything or not, I'd like to give my opinion and add to the discussion.

One of Neutral's big defining abilities is huge uncapped temporary defense that can be used alongside regular Shields and Counters, effectively giving the element 3 walls to hide behind. It's hardly Neutral without it. Thematically, it doesn't make sense to ban it. Nor does banning CC appeal to my tastes because I want to compete and beat the best players at their best, not when arbitrary limits are in place.

Neutral vs Neutral is well balanced in my experience. Neutral's power cards when fighting against itself come together to check one another in a rock-paper-scissors fashion where putting all your eggs in one basket isn't a dominant strategy. Corruption is completely negated by 2 Ironhides spread over 2 turns. But while it's common to draw an Ironhide nearly every turn, it's next to impossible to do so every time. Ironhide helps negate DoTs and weak instant damage, but Counterattack bypasses Ironhide completely. In turn, Counterattack does absolutely nothing against DoTs. It's a rather balanced system because each option loses to something else while Neutral cannot possibly do all of these things all it once. It's limited by max energy, hand size, CC slots, and luck of the draw. In the end, choices must be made. This leads into what the cards do on a meta level. Ironhide serves as a way to deter offense and cycle through your deck. Corruption makes the opponent want to draw Ironhide more often and also softens it for your instant damage cards to break through, or encourage the opponent to finish you off before Corruption takes it toll. Counterattack limits the opponents offensive options. Do they want to lose the HP/Shield to attack through it, draw more Shields before attacking, or opt to only attack with DoTs which can be difficult to draw? Instant damage cards are also valuable but situational. All of these psychological factors come into play. Whatever you play limits the opponent's options and any way they respond to it can be used against them. Neutral is a more tactical element imo and reading the mind of the opponent especially matters compared to the other elements when wielding it effectively. Even Ironhide can have no effect depending on what the opponent does. On the topic of CC, whatever you choose to CC can be beaten by another CC in Neutral vs Neutral. Luck, skill, and level are all determining factors as well, not just CC. Good draws and plays can let you beat someone with CC when you have none. If you ban the CC of one card, it affects the balance and use of others.

On the matter of time, I don't think allowing Ironhide CC would make a large difference. I played some Neutral vs Neutral duels against Signeous last night, and even when we both CC'd Ironhide it didn't add much to the battle time. There we times when matches were at standstills for few turns, but the random nature of the game's draws always broke the standstill, if a change in tactics to adapt to the current situation didn't break it first. For the tournament there are 2 whole days to complete a round. You can schedule Round 1 matches as soon as the bracket is released and finish them ahead of time, ask for extensions if needed, and I'm sure the deadlines could be bumped up to 3 days if that's what the players want. There also aren't many participants so the brackets aren't huge. Is match time an issue for anyone?

But ultimately nothing's at stake and it's just a friendly tournament, so take it as you will. :B

@banning Corruption
There's no way to tell the difference between the native version in some character's decks and the CC version since they do the exact same damage, so it's impossible to meaningfully enforce such a ban.




The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Seventh PvP Elemental Tournament: Sign Up Here! (11/11/2014 4:02:08)

quote:


How hard is it to just be a good person?


Quite hard, because different people have different definitions of what that is. For the same action one could be condemned by one party, tolerated by another and celebrated by a third. Skurge's ban of Iron Hide is a good example of such an action.

quote:


Yeah, but in this case you would be overwhelmed by damage without many ways to mitigate it. In that case you found a way to get through his defense, but there's no way to outlast corruptions for 2 hours.


There's no reason a Neutral vs. Neutral duel with CC Iron Hides banned should take 2 hours.

quote:


(Dylligraphy's Taro, for example, used Counters/CR to counter DM's attacks and IronHides to counter corruptions. He played the character exceptionally well and it did great).


Thanks! We'll see if I can play it well enough in the tournament.

quote:


I think it says a lot about the competitive forum community for OverSoul if most of us want certain CC banned because it'll make matches longer, not because it's a balance issue. Whether it changes anything or not, I'd like to give my opinion and add to the discussion.


Like what? Bare in mind that while "because it'll make matches longer" is an accurate assessment, the "longer" duration in question would potentially be "ad infinitum" due to defensive looping. So while it would be a "longer match", that's not the whole truth of the matter as it's not just a "longer match", it's a stalemate, which is a fundamental problem.

At high levels with all current CC's permitted and all Neutral characters available, a player cannot lose so long as they continue mounting Iron Hides, Shields, and Counters. This turns duels into waiting games rather than contests of skill. Patience is a virtue and a skill to an extent when it comes to any duel, but should be one of several measures, not be the sole determinant of the best Neutral player.

quote:


Neutral vs Neutral is well balanced in my experience.


With CC Iron Hides allowed, optimal Neutral defence trumps optimal Neutral offence. That being said, I feel I should address a special Neutral character, Arcane Ranger. While her SuperCharged attacks could potentially break through a Neutral stalemate including CC Iron Hides and could make progress against an opponent who does nothing but mount defences, she has to make considerable compromises to her defensive potential for these attacks to be possible. Cumulative Counter Attack damage with conservative uses of standard attacks would easily punish her offensive-oriented overextension to the point where she essentially poses no more of a threat to a fully-equipped defensive fortress than any other Neutral character. When the problem of a stalemate can only be resolved by a losing alternative, it's still a problem.

quote:


Corruption is completely negated by 2 Ironhides spread over 2 turns. But while it's common to draw an Ironhide nearly every turn, it's next to impossible to do so every time.


With Iron Hide CC's available you can have as many as 7 Iron Hides in a 20 card deck with each hand having 5 cards (there are characters with fewer than 15 fixed cards like Clan Archer, Clan Warrior, and Squire, but they don't have 2 native Iron Hides so they can't achieve ratios as high). While the odd lapse might occur with the optimal ratio, they'd happen so seldom that the Shields and Counters built up while spamming Iron Hides would cancel out any damage that might have been done during a lapse until the Iron Hide spamming could continue.

quote:


Ironhide helps negate DoTs and weak instant damage, but Counterattack bypasses Ironhide completely.


Counter Attack cannot bypass Iron Hide unless it is triggered. Why trigger Counter Attack when you can mount defences forever? The answer is of course to get the fight over with, which means losing.

quote:


On the topic of CC, whatever you choose to CC can be beaten by another CC in Neutral vs Neutral.


On the contrary, CC Iron Hides result in an impenetrable defence that cannot be beaten by any offence so long as the defender has time to stall, which is the problem that necessitates a ban of CC Iron Hide.

quote:


On the matter of time, I don't think allowing Ironhide CC would make a large difference. I played some Neutral vs Neutral duels against Signeous last night, and even when we both CC'd Ironhide it didn't add much to the battle time.


How many did each of you CC and were you both mounting defences without compromising energy that could be spent on defences for attacks? If not, could one of you have done better if you'd mounted more defences or included more Iron Hide CC's?

quote:


But ultimately nothing's at stake and it's just a friendly tournament, so take it as you will. :B


Alas, these tournaments put pride at stake. Player participation wouldn't be conditional if nothing were at stake. Achilles wouldn't have refused to participate if nothing were at stake, but something was at stake then. Like Achilles, The Jop refuses to fight, for as the defending champion, he is under pressure to excel which he feels he could do better before under the unaltered conditions previously in place. Sadly, the conditions must be altered because defensive looping causes stalemates which is a fundamental problem.




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