RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (Full Version)

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requiem.exe -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/28/2015 1:01:13)

The issue is that its buggy as all git, not about it being too hard. For me, that is. Can't speak for anyone else.




blllaaaaaaaa -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/28/2015 3:16:31)

I actually find it decently easy, as long as it's not bugging out. *Cough* never *cough* Though the creation of it did not take into account those like myself who use a trackpad rather than a mouse. Any tracing game is a bit more of a hassle on a pad.



Brasca123 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/28/2015 17:20:17)

i don't have a problem with mana on my lv 33, and i use DL, which is a tier 3, and i have 0 WIS, it's only a matter of taking care on which enemy to use your mana heavy skills, low lvs aren't even supposed to use tier 3 classes IIRC, so i don't see how it is actually a problem



Aura Knight -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/28/2015 17:23:15)

I don't consider mana costs for skills in most classes as being too high. Until that changes, mana potions are at most times useless. What I don't fully understand is why health potions recover so much and mana potions so little. At rank 40 in mana potion training the potions heal a little less than 300 mp but at that rank with health potions you heal over 600. The way it's done makes it seem as if mana is unimportant.



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/28/2015 17:46:00)

^It's a matter of proportion. You have 495 mana at max level while max mana pots heal 275 mana. That's: 275/495 = 55,5% of your max mana.
For the hp you get 625hp for a maxed potion and you have 1680 hp at max level... That's 625/1680 = 37,2% of your max hp.

So yeah seen in that way Mana pots healing doesn't look that unimportant uh?
"But if you consider the WIS and END from equipment and stats the proportion.." Silence! [:D]



PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/28/2015 18:28:57)

About the crit nerf, while I felt it was definitely necessary, the nerf by half is definitely extreme in my opinion.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/28/2015 18:30:42)

Please explain how doing *2 damage on 60% or more of all hits is in any semblance of ok. That's double expected and intended damage.



Wulf Gar -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/28/2015 19:07:31)

Frankly the Crit nerf made this game fun again for me, I got no joy out of being able to kill things in 1 attack on hard mode with Riftwalker, the old crit system was fine for a long time, but once lvl 60-70-80 rolled around it became absurdly easy to kill anything with the ever increasing amounts of Crit equipment gave, while also sucking any enjoyment I had from the game right out.

Seriously...whats the point of a boss fight if you can kill the boss in 1 attack, now though even off of hard mode some of the newer bosses provide a very fun challenge, and I have to say the stat changes made DF my fave AE game again.



PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/28/2015 19:55:10)

quote:

Please explain how doing *2 damage on 60% or more of all hits is in any semblance of ok. That's double expected and intended damage.


I never said it was fun doing more damage than "intended". I just said nerfing by half is a little too much in my opinion. Like a 3/5 nerf would have been fine. That's just my opinion. It will never be altered/changed.



Mystical Warrior -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/28/2015 20:36:36)

@PusatShrade In my opinion, crit is still overpowered, as players are still striving to get a reliable 50 crit, if at all, I'd say lowering the crit a bit more is good, since Crit in essence shouldn't happen so often as it is one of those damage that is nice to see when it happens, not a damage that needs to happen all the time. Almost all RPGs have a base and constant crit rate, even with skills increasing them, those increase are still miniscule



blllaaaaaaaa -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 1:08:34)

Coming from other MMO's I feel that Crit shouldn't be nerfed anymore. By the time you've put your work into getting to top the normal enemies are easy. That is why there's Instances and Dungeons. I'd say we should have some mega-epic quest areas if we want challenges. Not nerfing the player so that the entire game is harder.



Mystical Warrior -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 1:11:45)

@blllaaaaaa However if we assume a coder's point of view, it is far easier to nerf crit than create monsters while taking in to mind the power a player has.



PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 1:15:26)

@blaaaaaaa

Seconded. Well said.

quote:

Seriously...whats the point of a boss fight if you can kill the boss in 1 attack, now though even off of hard mode some of the newer bosses provide a very fun challenge, and I have to say the stat changes made DF my fave AE game again.


Please tell me one boss you were able to beat in "1 attack" merely because of a high crit rate. *smh*


quote:

@PusatShrade In my opinion, crit is still overpowered, as players are still striving to get a reliable 50 crit, if at all, I'd say lowering the crit a bit more is good, since Crit in essence shouldn't happen so often as it is one of those damage that is nice to see when it happens, not a damage that needs to happen all the time. Almost all RPGs have a base and constant crit rate, even with skills increasing them, those increase are still miniscule


Do you realize how you're making yourself look by arguing against someone else's OPINION? You do not have to reply to my post and try to change the way I think by posting your own opinion. I see that you're stating your own opinion, which I totally respect and understand. However, you do not need to accentuate your disagreement with me EVERY single TIME by replying to a post that has nothing to do with you or your opinion.



Aura Knight -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 2:11:01)

What exactly is the issue with crits being powerful? If there was a problem with the player being too powerful why was it that for so long one class could allow players to go through most of the game with the most ease? Sure Doomknight will be changed at some point but to make a class that is already so powerful and later complain the players are given too much power seems rather silly. And so what if the players have lots of power. In a single player game aren't we meant to be able to beat any enemy we face? What's the point in weakening the player at all? Perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding the issue here but it seems to me the problem doesn't lie with the individual players being given too much power, but with the creator's minds not being made up on whether or not to allow the supposed overpowered players to cruise through the game with ease and/or little to no thinking. I mean, the constant buffs and nerfs on class armors almost makes it difficult to get used to classes. If all consequences are considered when first creating weapons, classes, accessories, and how stats affect gameplay, things would go more smoothly.

As of now, crit is just fine as it is. While it certainly would make things easier to constantly one-shot all enemies, it takes away the fun of the game. We're not meant to easily beat everything in game and this is why we have classes with various skills. We're meant to use the skills from each class we acquire in order to achieve a common goal: victory. If every monster in game could so easily be beat with simply spamming the attack button, why even have classes at all?

Even at the level cap there's not a single boss that's worth mentioning that can be beat in one hit. Most boss fights take at least 3 hits before going down and while that might not be a lot, it shows that the player is not as overpowered as we are made out to be. Now obviously there are bosses with low hp from beginner quests. Sure those can be nothing more than target practice for higher leveled players, but those aren't the ones to which most refer. Monster scaling is a good thing but in certain situations, simply scaling the level does nothing. Especially if the hp of those monsters remain the same at all times.

Any further issues with players being too strong will obviously be corrected. Class revamps are a thing and so far none have disappointed. I'm sure the fate of the player's power is in good hands and in the end there will be a point where the game is the right mix of fun and challenging for all. Now if only patience were exercised until that day.



Talion -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 2:26:32)

quote:


From : Mystical Warrior

@PusatShrade In my opinion, crit is still overpowered, as players are still striving to get a reliable 50 crit, if at all, I'd say lowering the crit a bit more is good, since Crit in essence shouldn't happen so often as it is one of those damage that is nice to see when it happens, not a damage that needs to happen all the time. Almost all RPGs have a base and constant crit rate, even with skills increasing them, those increase are still miniscule


....omg. I'm not finished mourning my crit yet and now you open the door for nerfing it even more...? I respect your opinion, like everyone's. Now here's mine

The purpose of nerfing crit was to prevent us from having a crit% so high that our actual damage should just be considered doubled. This was supposed to make the bosses harder to beat. Ash stated that we can still pretty much kill any normal monster in one hit.

What this ACTUALLY did to the game : Quests bosses already had enough HP to resist a couple of turns. Nothing changed. Ultra-hard bosses were (and are) so though that dealing twice as much damage is completely worthless, because all that counts is strategy. Nothing changed (again).

What changed : we still can kill a decent percentage of normal monsters in one turn, but it happens alot less often (30 to 40% less often to be exact). Juuuust enough to make the farming EVEN MORE annoying. I stated it in the "Will Dragonfable hold?" thread : Despite I really like this game, the farming is a big "MEH."

So in my opinion, that crit nerf did not "balance" the game, it made it more frustrating. What they did with STR/INT/DEX/LUK/END/WIS is really cool though. Capping the resist to 80 to make it impossible to be untouchable was a very good move. The adjustment of Parry/Dodge/Block to make it real stat again was awesome. But I will never second that crit-nerf idea. Putting a simple cap of 75% would've been better.

I know that Ash is not an idiot and has alot more experience than me. I'm just gonna sit back and let it be, because the dude knows what's up. Maybe in the long run it WILL make DF a funner game. Just because I don't like this does not mean that the other couple millions of players will think the same. But I'm really not gonna try to hide how frustrated this made me.

@above : I totally agree with everything you said (exept the "fine as it is now" about crit). I don't see the point of taking power from players either.



David the Wanderer -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 3:23:02)

@Aura Knight: The fact is, Crit was never meant to happen so often, but as the level cap rose, more items were added, with more stats, and Crit became inflated and so important players stopped caring about any other stat: the equipment with the highest Crit was the best, even if it had poor stats for everything else. Ash halving it simply and putting a Cap on it simply brought Crit back to what it was meant to be.

I do agree it doesn't needs a further weakening, but, again, it needed to be done, because it was getting ridiculously inflated.



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 3:41:48)

Say Ash... this is just a question but... Is it possible to introduce a crit modifier stat? something that goes for example from -100 to 100. So if you have a crit modifier of 50 your crits do 2,5 tines damage, modifier of 100 is 3 times damage and modifier of -100 does 1 times damage (same damage as non crit)
I'm asking if it's possible with the current engine not asking how much work would that take (probably a lot).



Aura Knight -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 3:55:45)

quote:

The fact is, Crit was never meant to happen so often, but as the level cap rose, more items were added, with more stats, and Crit became inflated and so important players stopped caring about any other stat: the equipment with the highest Crit was the best, even if it had poor stats for everything else. Ash halving it simply and putting a Cap on it simply brought Crit back to what it was meant to be.


I still don't see it as a huge issue. Even at the level cap I don't crit that often and even when I do the damage isn't that amazing. But perhaps I'm just noticing this after the change had already been made. I'm fine with things as they are now but if others feel this weakens the player, perhaps they know more than myself since I haven't always been playing this game. I don't fully understand everything about it despite having a high leveled character. Taking various breaks from playing might have caused me to be misinformed about aspects of the game. Even now I'm trying to update my items and still am not satisfied with my stats as they are since different classes require different builds and my desire to constantly change classes makes it difficult to just stick with a single build.

In the end, all changes done are for the sake of balance and an attempt to make the game more fun while keeping it challenging enough for all to enjoy.



Brasca123 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 4:16:20)

@talion. you can think that the crit nerf did not change the battles in itself, but... since the best gear was simply the one with more crit, lots of gear made by the staff were considered worthless because they gave little crit, which is why it was nerfed, so that different builds would also work, instead of biggest crit possible build being the one that rules them all



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 4:50:19)

People are still complaining about the crit nerf? *rolls eyes* The game barely changed with it, stop making a fuss over nothing. Inb4 'B--but I used to be stwong! Q_Q I need big numbers to feel l33t!'

Pls nerf further for lolz. =P

Edit: Lemme elaborate a wee bit further. The vast majority of turn based games have crit as something that is more of a lucky break, rather than something to aim to to get. Even classes that would rely on a games crit system are either gimmicky or made of glass.



Melissa4Bella -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 5:36:43)

Just a few things.

quote:

Do you realize how you're making yourself look by arguing against someone else's OPINION? You do not have to reply to my post and try to change the way I think by posting your own opinion. I see that you're stating your own opinion, which I totally respect and understand. However, you do not need to accentuate your disagreement with me EVERY single TIME by replying to a post that has nothing to do with you or your opinion.


This is the general discussion forum. This is where players can exchange opinions with each other, agree/disagree/agree to disagree, pose different scenarios to talk about, discuss releases, etc. This is the perfect and only place in the DF forums to do so.
The only time the Archknights, myself or another Moderator will intervene is when things devolve until there is not a discussion happening but instead confrontations and trolling/flaming/baiting occurs.

This is starting to happen within this thread, which is why I'm posting. We need to put a stop to it before things get out of control.

quote:

I totally agree with everything you said (exept the "fine as it is now" about crit). I don't see the point of taking power from players either.

quote:

I know that Ash is not an idiot and has alot more experience than me. I'm just gonna sit back and let it be, because the dude knows what's up. Maybe in the long run it WILL make DF a funner game.


The underlying issue within the game (that was the elephant in the room that everyone was ignoring) was some serious and overzealous power creep. As time went by the only way to manage the numbers was to go up. Over time that practice was getting vastly out of control. Some semblance of balance did indeed need to happen at some point. It could have been done drastically all at once, but it wasn't. It was a carefully thought out plan that has taken Ash well over a year to map out, work on the numbers and incrementally put into place over a long period of time.
If you want to go back and look at what was happening for the past year you will notice that almost all of the DF armors have been revamped. The class revamps' main goal was to make them more useful to the player. By useful I mean that some skills were actually buffed, some were improved, some were nerfed and some became viable. All of that meant that the classes actually became more powerful than players ever thought that they could be. While the change was startling for many, it soon became clear that this was useful, beneficial and enjoyed. Players are now using classes that had fallen out of favor for some years.
At that point is when Ash began working on the 14.0.1 engine - which included changing the aspects of mana and crit. Those changes work in tandem with the armor revamps, not against them. When looking at the mechanics of the game now, as a whole, it becomes clear how the game actually benefited overall.
And let's not forget what has been done with the experience curve that benefits gameplay, also, which can be found here: =DF= June 18 Design Notes: Exp and A Curse That Never Was

So, again, let's look at the bigger picture of everything that has been done up to this point: class revamps, engine updates, experience curve. If we're going to be honest, the decisions to make the changes that were made didn't happen overnight and without a lot of planning/forethought/testing/etc. Because of that, the changes made to the overall engine and armors did not create a hardship for anyone. Indeed, farming isn't the first thing most of us look forward to when we wake up in the morning, but it is something that is an integral part of the gaming world. There is also a trade off for those that farm - and that trade off is the items that they are working towards.

Ash can explain the finer details of everything that I've said if that's what he chooses to do. But he has mentioned many times on these forums the whats/whys/whens/hows, already.



blllaaaaaaaa -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 6:22:33)

@Melissa4Bella - It helps me to know for a fact that these changes are all in a grand scheme and not just "Oh, we could do this to help!" Thank you for the confirmation.


You're very welcome, blllaaaaaaaa! ~M4B



Delgadoss -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 7:18:12)

The Crit change doesn't matter because ultimately, it just shifts damage around. A high level, high Crit build will only lose about 3.5% damage if they invest in LUK on top of STR/INT/DEX to compensate for the reduced Crit. *

The WIS change and class revamps are a much bigger deal IMO, and the latter seems to be getting positive feedback from the community.



* Edit: The loss in damage will increase as base damage increases, but I think the staff is going to compensate for this by giving more damaging stat bonuses than what was intended prior to v14.



The ErosionSeeker -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 7:23:37)

@crabpeople
In other games I've played, that kind of crit bonus could only be dependant on the person getting hit, which would make it next to impossible to do using DF's format in the way you intended.

It might be possible to create monsters that can resist crits, though. With all of these cool new boss abilities, soft damage caps could be a thing.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (7/29/2015 7:50:36)

quote:

What exactly is the issue with crits being powerful? If there was a problem with the player being too powerful why was it that for so long one class could allow players to go through most of the game with the most ease? Sure Doomknight will be changed at some point but to make a class that is already so powerful and later complain the players are given too much power seems rather silly. And so what if the players have lots of power. In a single player game aren't we meant to be able to beat any enemy we face? What's the point in weakening the player at all? Perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding the issue here but it seems to me the problem doesn't lie with the individual players being given too much power, but with the creator's minds not being made up on whether or not to allow the supposed overpowered players to cruise through the game with ease and/or little to no thinking. I mean, the constant buffs and nerfs on class armors almost makes it difficult to get used to classes. If all consequences are considered when first creating weapons, classes, accessories, and how stats affect gameplay, things would go more smoothly.

The issue isn't to weaken the player. The issue was you were CURBSTOMPING everything. That's not a game, that's a cutscene player. Yes that's how some of you want to play but that's not how the game is MEANT to be played. When the player is able to constantly do double damage that means that any sense of ANY strategy is gone. "Push button, get prize, I'm bored". I wasn't around when the decision to make DoomKnight buffed to the point of "lolololol I killz all the things without thinking". If I was it would have been buffed differently, given EFFECTS not just 3x damage modifiers and called "fixed." That was lazy, pure and simple and I'm in no way afraid to toss that out there. That's a totally different topic though.

Player power isn't an issue when it's gained over time and not based around one, single, stat. When the only stat any player EVER wants on gear, constantly DEMANDS, and cries if a new piece of gear doesn't have 1 point more of it there's an issue. When one stat is the only stat anyone ever cares about that means your game did something wrong. Period. No stat should ever be "best" for everything beyond End. More health doesn't cause as many issues as damage spike. Without nerfing crit, making everyone have a lower chance and realize that you cannot go higher than this number, it opened to door for people to actually look at other stats after they were buffed and make rational choices. Without that nerf everyone would still be pushing for "lol, Cha? Pft. Forget that even when it is buffed. Guests and pets are lame. Just get X, Y, and Z item because they all have 15 crit and just smack everything once and it'll die." You can't have a "game" when it wasn't designed around the fact that you're critting a lot.

quote:

So in my opinion, that crit nerf did not "balance" the game, it made it more frustrating.

Players didn't like that monster health was going up every time they leveled up. Did any of you stop and think WHY that health was going up? It was because you were getting more crit every level. By the time level 90 was going to roll around you would have had monsters that had x6 or x8 health that they do now because you would be critting 100% of the time. Would anyone have enjoyed that? You'd be taking longer than now to beat a monster simply to make it a game. Would you then complain even more that even though you can crit all the time you still couldn't 1 shot most monsters? Would it be less frustrating even though you're able to crit every attack when you're taking longer than now to kill a monster?

quote:

Say Ash... this is just a question but... Is it possible to introduce a crit modifier stat? something that goes for example from -100 to 100. So if you have a crit modifier of 50 your crits do 2,5 tines damage, modifier of 100 is 3 times damage and modifier of -100 does 1 times damage (same damage as non crit)
I'm asking if it's possible with the current engine not asking how much work would that take (probably a lot).

There is a modifier in place for that already. It's set at 2. (double damage). Verly was looking at a way to manually adjust that in battle itself but so far it's one of those things that wasn't designed from the start to be accessed outside the engine with a manual change to it directly. The variable is there, just changing it isn't easy to do without changing it for the game as a whole and I don't think anyone wants us lowering the amount a crit does to then give you back your crit rate because it'd end up being like 1.05x damage at 100% crit.

quote:

you can think that the crit nerf did not change the battles in itself, but... since the best gear was simply the one with more crit, lots of gear made by the staff were considered worthless because they gave little crit, which is why it was nerfed, so that different builds would also work, instead of biggest crit possible build being the one that rules them all

This was part of it, yes. Without lowering the perceived and actual importance of a stat there is no way another stat would be viewed as "useable." Would anyone care if Cha was better if they had the same crit rate as before?

quote:

In other games I've played, that kind of crit bonus could only be dependant on the person getting hit, which would make it next to impossible to do using DF's format in the way you intended.

Something also to keep in mind is that in other games you most times don't have a way to adjust your chance to crit. Sure games like WoW give certain classes a higher priority for the stat and easy enough ways to get it but those classes are DESIGNED with that in mind and most other classes can't just stack crit. That's the problem with DF. You should never have had the option to dictate personally the amount of crit chance you have from the start. The premise it was created as is flawed and I don't agree with the idea behind it because it was a silly one that didn't even hold true from the start. If a game is designed with crits in mind the game can work because it's designed that way. When you shoehorn it in, like Crit is in DF, it created other issues like player dependance and lack of any sort of mitigating ability that prevents players from getting addicted to it with no way to change unless forcibly weaned off of it. Yes, I'm weaning you all off of the stat in the easiest way possible. I shouldn't have had to though because you should realize that it's damaging to a game the way the stat was handled for many reasons, not just "nooo I'm not powerful now. :(". Power comes in all sorts of ways and I honestly hope people can start looking at other builds and what they can offer instead of still constantly going, "How can I get the most crit possible."



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