Idea to Stop Botting (Full Version)

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Death Gigas -> Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 15:30:10)

I'm starting to get tired of the leaderboards, especially 1v1 being won by people botting, instead of playing fair. Which it's unfair for the players and factions that's trying to win on their on and not by cheating.

On to my suggestion, those that were here in Beta and maybe part of Gamma might remember this. The captcha you had to type in after every 5 battles or so, I say bring that back and we won't deal with botting as much anymore. Since bots can't type in the battle captcha, botting will then be useless again. That is one feature from Beta that we need back, best way to put an end to botting. That system was put in place so people can't bot, bring it back so people will have a chance at winning dailies again without the need to cheat.




Greed Redemption -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 15:44:20)

Ah yes I remember that, It should be brought in. I highly support this.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 17:18:19)

One thing the older phases had going for them was that battles still required some strategy, so it was unlikely for bots to beat actual players due to that aspect (as well as the skill randomizer).

But since battles are as strategic as tic tac toe and being swayed by luck, buts can end up winning battles in today's ED.
Another thing was NPCs. People weren't botting NPCs back then like some are now.
And NPCs counted towards win record, so they were a good way towards getting on LBs.

But I agree, battle captcha would be a good start.
I bet this affects the online player pop though.



Charfade -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 17:48:46)

Battle captcha was removed because bots found a to way around them. And since this measure proved ineffective and was actually annoying it was dropped completely because it had no positive use.

Moving the skills around was another measure we took to help curve bots but again, with a particular build with just hitting the attack button, bots have found a way to win around that.

I know this gets brought up from time to time, which is why I popped my head in real quick to remind the reason why we chose to remove the captcha.

There may be other ways to handle the botting issues with out damaging real players experience. Finding out why people bot and solving those issues to curve the appeal of bottling is a better practice we would be more interested to pursue.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 18:01:44)

^
quote:

Finding out why people bot and solving those issues to curve the appeal of bottling is a better practice we would be more interested to pursue.

Better thing to do is, actually make the game unexploitable. Mainly EXP earned from NPC battles are the main reason players bot, and by actually lowering the sellback of different drops, you actually did the opposite of what you said here:
quote:

There may be other ways to handle the botting issues with out damaging real players experience. Finding out why people bot and solving those issues to curve the appeal of bottling is a better practice we would be more interested to pursue.


Players mainly bot for EXP not credits. (sure some botted Davarril from 20k to 100k times, which I strongly believe they should all be banned.), but then, how could a player with 25 trillion credits affect the game? Best thing they can do is maximize credits sink cheevos or sometihng like that. But how could a player with 1 million experience affect the game? It would and a lot.

So you guys targeted the wrong thing by lowering the sellback of several drops. I cba if a player has 25 quadzillion credits, although, I would be annoyed if a player that has 50k NPC wins gained mainly through botting, gets PVP advantage from doing absolutely nothing, and starts farming low rank players while feeling pro doing it. This will result in a never ending cycle. Low rank players will start thinking about botting, until we have a huge rise of high rank players, making PVP unplayable (especially 1vs1).

Do I think that what I've just said would still benefit the game? I don't think so and I know I'm wasting my time replying, but I'm sure this would serve as big conclusions at the colapse of ED, this way you guys know very well how to build a newer game.



kelvin48997 -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 18:01:55)

charfade ik why people bot npc's, it is a free 1200 exp everyday without doing anythinge, and it is worth around 1 rank in the matter of a week maybe a little less then a week but you get the point + when power weekends come it is 2400exp a day for a bot that bot npc's



goldslayer1 -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 18:51:03)

@Charfade
quote:

but again, with a particular build with just hitting the attack button, bots have found a way to win around that.

Yes, but winning like that requires some luck in the match maker.
Battles require (Or used to) strategy, if a player is spamming strikes and getting wins then the problem isn't the bot.

quote:

Finding out why people bot and solving those issues to curve the appeal of bottling is a better practice we would be more interested to pursue.

It probably has to do with a mix of changes/additions.

Leveling Curve: Leveling takes thousands of wins to reach level cap.
Legendary Ranks: reach level cap, but progression doesn't stop. (This as other negative effects, but it would be getting off-topic)
Hourly NPCs: NPCs were hourly prior to Omega, and counted towards wins. and they weren't beatable with just strikes, so the skills randomizer worked in that front.
Losses: Profiles no longer display losses like before.

These last two changes contradict each other.
NPC wins were removed because they inflated win ratios and losses were hidden because they displayed win ratio.
They just contradict each other.

It would've been cool for ED to have picked ONE of these changes, but not both. I personally was in favor of hiding the losses.
Primarily because this game needs to have a PvE aspect with progression to the game with how bad the balance is. Right now it doesn't have a PvE aspect towards getting wins.
So it puts the onus squarely on PvP balance, and it is lacking so players are unhappy. They dont want to play PvP because of how bad the balance is, and cant do PvE without stalling their character's win progress. Had Omega kept NPC wins at 15 NPC battles an hour like before, a lot of old players (especially variums) would have stuck around longer because they'd still be able to PvE.

Why hiding losses doesn't make sense in THIS Epic Duel? well its simple. There's no drawback to being a big time loser in the game anymore.
Your record could be 15K wins and 50K losses and no one would know the wiser.
So people can bot as much as they want without it having an impact on their record, in the eyes of other players.

Its much harder to bot NPCs when they're 15 hourly battles to 3 different NPCs (losses would still count), and with skill randomizer they aren't beating an NPC with simply strikes, NPCs have too much HP for that.

And I'm guessing that particular build you're talking about made good use of the original passives (most likely bloodlust passive) which now require the player to activate for it to take effect.
Wont be easy to activate said passives with a skill randomizer.

So I propose this, have a moderator or tester come up with a build that only uses strikes and see if it gets anywhere vs NPCs in the level range.

@Lord Machaar
I disagree. Further distancing PvE more than it already is will surely have a more negative outcome.
Rather than seeing bots in PvE, you'd see more in PvP.
With balance the way it is right now, the ones that end up losing the most are the real players.
Forcing them even further into a broken PvP will leave more sour outlook towards this game.



Lord Machaar -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 19:40:21)

quote:

Credits don't effect pvp ? really ? what do u call someone that spam + 6 cores that he/she buys using credits ? that's not effecting pvp ? hilarious rofl. why did i ever got back to forums all i see is hilarious posts and laughable replies :p


Only viable +6 core is dex one. Which one is better, +6 core dex or:
- +40 Damage for Aux/Bot/Sidearm.
- +30 For Def/Resis.
- +30 Damage for Primary.
- ....

Use a level 38 that only botted Davarril with, equiped with all +6 cores, and make it face a rank 60 who has been botting Big Tuna/Caden. Result?

Use your mind before saying X thing is laughable, the things you are saying are not even laughable, they are stupid.

@GoldSlayer

Botting in PVP is not as severe as in PVE, thanks to the report system. Botting in PVE could go completely unnoticed, since what is the different between actually playing against a NPC and farming it? Same 4/5 moves. Yet in PVP, botters are detectable, and banned thanks to the report system. It would be absurd if someone uses an energy draining skill while the oppnent has 0 energy, this is a strong sign of botting. Using a specific types of builds in PVP is also a great indicator in PVP.

My suggestion is not detailed. I already posted one but it wasn't considered. My suggestion doesn't take off EXP gained through NPC wins totally, but, EXP gained through NPC wins at a certain rank, of let's say 20 - 30. After then, only EXP from PVP counts. For 2 reasons:
- First 20 - 30 ranks are the most primordial.
- Second, players would no longer accumulate more ranks from botting/npcs, hence making PVP battles filled with players from different ranks ranges. Not what we are currently seeing, 90% of players are high ranks.



The berserker killer -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 22:05:24)

tlm gets wrecked by the new bh build. I saw machaar get shredded apart in a ton of videos.

On topic: I think we need to ask ourselves "is botting really such a bad thing?". And, if so, then to what extent is it bad? Is it only bad in PVP? Or NPC? It is imperative to answer the simple questions first such as "Why do people bot" before you can solve the problem



shadow.bane -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 22:28:34)

^ ikr and he said 95 % ... well what u said is right know reasons before u implement a thing .



goldslayer1 -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/1/2016 22:35:40)

quote:

I think we need to ask ourselves "is botting really such a bad thing?". And, if so, then to what extent is it bad?

The extent that they're bad? that they're capable of winning pvp with botting.
That really says more about the state of the game's balance than the botting itself though.

Given the circumstances in this game where player population drops into the low hundred, its not terribly terribly bad.
If they were losing, it wouldn't be that big of an issue just like it wasn't a big issue when players tried to bot in previous phases, because they'd always lose since the game required strategy. But they're winning and that's an issue.

Not saying I support it, but (Hypothetical) if there's 150 players online and half of them are bots, do you really want the server population to drop down to 75?



Lord Machaar -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/2/2016 3:51:52)

TBK:
If I were in your place, I wouldn't really talk about getting "shredded", neither you Bane.
The game wouldn't be balanced if my build encounters everything, support builds encounter 5 focus builds, but strenght builds encounter support builds. That's logic of things. If new support BH is defeating 5 focus builds, they are also getting defeated by strenght builds. And if it wasn't the case, you wouldn't see many players changing that build after testing it for awhile.

You can make a perfect build to encounter 5 focus, but is weak against strenght, builds like this tend to disappear after awhile.
I wouldn't enter in such details, but again, mental abilities of each individual are different.

I'm finally seeing some action in PVP, what's the fun of farming all players (likes of you). Having a builds that challenges you is fun, and that's what I've been searching for in a while.

On Topic:
Questions that have already been answered. Solution is make the game unexploitable by bots.



shadow.bane -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/2/2016 6:04:48)

really ? fyi i played support bh (my version of it with little twerks) i found no problem to defeat an str build, the only real weakness for it is a bm f5. and me shredded ? again lol i only have hard time with focus builders rank 30 - 60 cause if u haven't noticed due to underdog they are more powerful than a full rank. u will see yourself after u reach rank 50 - 55 + remind me but i still get a decent 90 % + ratio.



RageSoul -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/2/2016 7:59:14)

I love how the thread is all about botting and the issues it causes and surrounding it and we shifted towards builds countering builds for some reason . No offense though , just finding it funny .

ON TOPIC :

Would removing EXP earned from NPCs again somehow reduce the impact of botting back to a less prominent issue ? It became more prominent when there were Credit options for Varium weapons before Omega , then when EXP earning is back after adding the NPC Wins cap , they suddenly increased and not just because of higher Rankers .



c1729 -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/2/2016 9:18:09)

Regarding NPC Botting,

The high price of everything, combined with the enormous time needed to reach level 40 Rank 100 are probably the prime reasons for NPC botting.

In AQW, I played for about 2 weeks, I'm already level 39 (cap 65) and have hit the gold cap with more gold than I could possibly spend. However, after playing ED for over 2 months, I still find myself at a shortage of credits the majority of the time (I am very cautious with it, I have never had any credits to spare for cosmetic weapons), I mostly do PvP since I find NPC killing just too boring to kill more than once (Except the bosses). I wasn't here during the gifting, but from what I've heard, that is the main issue for some players having huge amounts while others do not. Simply cutting all prices (even the varium prices) and XP needed per lvl by 3, would reduce the incentive of botting for many players since they would have enough credits for any weapon they wanted anyway, and leveling up wouldn't be an issue as well.

Fixing up PvP Balance is possibly the only solution for PvP Botting.



Battle Elf -> RE: Idea to Stop Botting (3/2/2016 15:45:09)

Unfortunately this thread has been interrupted by flaming between users and off-topic discussions. Flaming is not permitted ANY WHERE on the Forums. You are expected to act with respect and dignity when posting and those who use the Forums as a means of attacking others will be punished.

Since this thread has derailed, I'm going to lock it now.

Thanks,
Battle Elf
AE Forum Moderator



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