PSA: Dexterity (Full Version)

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Kaelin -> PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 13:41:32)

We know DEX is broken. We're brainstorming how we'd like to deal with it so it's a well-balanced, desirable, and mechanically-sound stat. We want to keep the stat distinctive, so expect that we aren't going to make DEX exactly like STR, but for Ranged.



Shiba -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 13:51:59)

Is this also the place for suggestions...?

Currently DEX does the following:
- Provide partial Bth for Magic/Melee and Pets/Guests;
- Provide full BtH for Ranged (LUK not included);
- Give a minor boost to Ranged Damage;
- Blocking (again with a small part in LUK)

I'll add more if I forget. This post is just a reminder for anyone else what DEX currently does.



Kaelin -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 14:04:57)

Your list of current behaviors appears correct and complete.

Obviously we can't guarantee we'll use certain suggestions, but I am fine with people posting them in here. However, we're more interested in ideas for general behaviors than in specific formulas at this point.



LUPUL LUNATIC -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 14:17:10)

I had a nice idea for DEX , changing the functionality a bit.

For example Minor rolls are always LUK most of the time but i can see DEX being there too because you are either lucky or skilled to inflict something except when DEX is the main roll for obvious reasons.

Also DEX can be a link for Initiative (see Assassin class).

Normally DEX has nothing to do with Stat Damage at all but i think the Longbows should be different a bit , just like how Daggers can be finesse weapons, Longbows can use different stat formulas too with DEX.

In any case DEX affecting Pets/Guests must be removed, it simply doesnt make any sense that your DEX affects your companions.


For Blocking:

I propose splitting MRM in 3:
quote:


STR does the Melee Blocking , this is the true blocking with a Shield as a Warrior
INT does the Magic "Blocking", this is named actually "Counterspell" as a Mage
DEX does the Ranged "Blocking" , it actually does the Rogue's Dodge from fast Ranged attacks


P.S:
quote:

As appeal bonus DEX can also have an effect at end of turn chance , at "stealing" more gold from monster maybe a % based on your DEX would really be a good appealing tool.
Kinda how Robina gives Gold to monsters and is an Archer (DEX) but in a reversed way.


The flavour text would be: " You managed to get something of <some> value from <MonsterName> with your quick reflexes !"

Will edit later with more things.



Sir Cloud -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 14:21:48)

@Kaelin, for one, IMO, it should be the ultimate stat for Blocking regardless of the other benefits to be discussed here. [:)]



Shiba -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 14:23:06)

Suggestions made by me and others, include:
- Decrease how many points of BtH DEX gives (and put the missing BtH in [MainStat] or LUK);

- Split Blocking between STR, DEX and INT for Melee, Ranged and Magic Blocking respectively;
- Move Blocking to END;
- Remove Blocking from stats, and put those Blocking points on armours or directly to the character as they level up.

- Put Initiative on DEX (seems contradictory, so this needs an explanation. Basically you put [some of] DEX' share of BtH in LUK and put Initiative in DEX to keep LUK balanced.)



spoiler:

I would change a hell of a lot more, but we'll focus on DEX now.



Branl -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 14:32:06)

Dex is... very odd. It provides your full BTH for ranged, yet Strength provides most of a ranged weapon's damage. Meaning an FD Ranger and a FO Anihilator Warrior have fundamentally similar builds, except an FD Ranger has to worry about 4 stats instead of 3.
I feel Strength and Dexterity should be swapped as far as damage output goes for ranged weapons. The worry here is that Dex is a very powerful stat so Dexterity focused builds would get the best of all worlds, so all of the other bonuses it provides should be minor, instead of having parity with other stats for accuracy. Probably a 75/25 Split instead of a 50/50 split for Melee, Ranged, and Pets.

It should provide some level of block too, it just makes sense. You may be able to justify giving End some amount of blocking, which would help give End a use beyond being a useless dump stat, which is another topic altogether. FD builds don't want it because they already make up for not having it with their armor lean. FO builds don't want it because they can ignore endurance altogether with Shadowfeeder/Love Potion, buffing with Buffalot/Arcane/Moonwalker, equip booster pets (These need some sort of nerf, perhaps a increase in damage that doesn't go beyond the natural base stats, so using buff spells to go beyond 250 has no effect, and doesn't interact with other boosts) , equip CIT/Celtic, equip Grakma Horn/Minotaur's Pride, using Purple Rain (Seriously, this needs to record the monster's status, not the player's, it's save roll makes it clear it's meant for status inflicting Beastmaster builds, not offensive builds) and kill whatever they are fighting in 2/3 turns. Maybe give Endurance a fourth of the blocking from Dexterity (This makes Endurance a superior stat defensively, while still making Dexterity appealing for offensive purposes).

Sorry, I went off on a bit of a tangent, but I feel this is related to the fact that Beastmasters have felt the 250 increase and save stat increases far more than pure builds and fixing things like that would help decrease the gap between the various builds.



CH4OT1C! -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 14:56:24)

I'd like to kill two birds with one stone by giving rangers/warriors their own mainstat in DEX. For example:

Damage:
Melee Weapon: STR/8
Ranged Weapon: DEX/8
Magic Weapon: INT*3/32
Melee Skill/Spell: STR/4
Ranged Skill/Spell: DEX/4
Magic Skill/Spell: INT/4
Pets & Guests: CHA/15

Lucky strikes:
Melee Weapon: STR/8 + LUK*3/8
Ranged Weapon: DEX/8 + LUK*3/8
Magic Weapon: INT*3/32 + LUK*3/8
Melee Skill/Spell: STR/4 + LUK*3/8
Ranged Skill/Spell: DEX/4 + LUK*3/8
Magic Skill/Spell: INT/4 + LUK*3/8
Pets & Guests: CHA/15 + LUK*3/8

Stat bth:
Melee: STR*3/20 LUK/40
Ranged: DEX*3/20 + LUK/40
Magic: INT*3/20 + LUK/40
Pets & Guests: CHA*3/40 + DEX*3/40 + LUK/40

Endurance isn't really blocking, so I'd just bring them over to [Mainstat] too:
Melee blocking: STR/8 + LUK/40
Ranged blocking: DEX/8 + LUK/40
Magic blocking: INT/8 + LUK/40

Then, I would make SP scale with END (because you have the stamina to unleash powerful attacks for a longer period of time). This is how I (personally) would fix the issues. I can then use items to make DEX distinct from STR

Since you don't necessarily want to make warriors and rangers exactly alike, I would consider reducing the power of ranged weapon damage so that it would instead provide extra blocking across all 3 damage types.




battlesiege15 -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 15:14:27)

Can DEX be removed for pet and guest bth? I understand that having CHA alone is not ideal but player's Dex should have no effect on your compamnion's ability to hit. LUK I can see.

Right now, you are already sacrificing a main stat to be a beastwarrior. Making you also choose Dex just so your beast build is viable is not ideal.

I was also thinking having Dex be tied to initiative, maybe a mix of DEX and LUK (Dex because it's easy to sneak up and Luk for the element of surprise).

I think Dex should be important for Blocking but not super important for accuracy.



J9408 -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 15:20:10)

Yes, please think about removing DEX requirement for Pet and Guest BTH. It's such a strange requirement.



Branl -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 15:28:49)

I think it's because Luck already has a huge impact given their role in status inflictions and and also influence damage via lucky strikes.
Being able to run max Player damage and Pet damage (250 Strength, 250 Charisma, 250 Luck) with no penalty seems a little broken.

quote:

Since you don't necessarily want to make warriors and rangers exactly alike, I would consider reducing the power of ranged weapon damage so that it would instead provide extra blocking across all 3 damage types.

Don't touch my Luna Neko :C



Relinfearous -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 15:48:10)

Is it possible to change how stats increase damage? Right now, they effectively work like random damage. I think it would be interesting for STR, INT and LUK to give base damage (LUK already has a randomness factor), while DEX would increase random damage for all attack types (except pets), instead of BTH. This would make DEX attractive but not necessary.

Systematization:
STR: Melee and Ranged base damage and BTH
DEX: Melee, Ranged and Magic random damage; dodge
INT: Magic base damage and BTH; max MP
LUK: Lucky strikes (with bonus base damage); BTH for all attack types; initiative; dodge



Shiba -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 15:53:17)

Wow, weird; I was thinking the exact opposite! I actually thought Ranged weapons could be changed to be more stable and get more Base damage from stats.



Relinfearous -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 16:26:10)

They would get the same amount of base/random from stats as other weapons.

Most ranged non-100% proc weapons are designed to be distinctive: high random lean and accurate lean.



Seth Hydra -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 16:30:46)

I've had a beef with DEX as a stat ever since Patch 39 came out when it went from good to outright broken while my favourite stat got nerfed to oblivion. It had way too many uses and 95% of the builds in game would be near pointless without it. While I'm not aware of how the drastic change came out, the current developments indicate that there seems to be a change in how the stat is viewed which is obviously amazing.

Personally, I'd like the following ideas to be looked into:

  • DEX's effect on Pet and Guest Damage This one makes no sense. How does player dex affect how accurate Pets and Guests are. If anything, the minor BtH stat should be LUK since your guests and pets hitting the target is beyond the players control and more luck based than anything else.

  • Blocking Buff In its current state, blocking and blocking based strategies are a little more than a joke. Even with a high DEX and MRM, you still have a good chance of getting hit which is appalling. If DEX affects Accuracy and BtH to such an extent, it should have a greater impact on blocking.

  • Reliance on DEX for non-Ranged builds Again, my main gripe with the stat is how it needs to be pigeonholed into every build in existing barring Werepyre Hybrid. It would make sense if it affected Melee and Magic weapons in the same vein as LUK but not how it is in its current state.

  • Ranged weapons reliance on STR Ranged weapons should get all their damage from DEX. STR shouldn't even be in the picture honestly.

  • LUK Buff While LUK is a minor stat in just about every roll in the game and has a significant effect on damage output, I feel it needs to be buffed since its quite less impactful than the other secondary stats. Perhaps giving Warriors / Mages the chance to get a bigger portion of their BtH from LUK rather than DEX would help remedy to an extent.



    • Relinfearous -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 16:42:32)

    I miss Chii shutting down bad ideas and things that aren't feasible. Since right now I have no idea how to make those judgements and suggestions being left up in the air sucks.



    PlayMyTrapCard -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 16:42:56)

    I'd love to see a full stat revamp rather than a change to only dexterity. Going to more Dragonfable style stats where stats simply do their primary objective and one bonus objective except for luck which does a little bit of everything would help solidify stats against each other whereas currently str and int fundamentally do the same things but int gets mp on top.

    I'd love to see something similar to this. No real numbers given, just general ideas.

    Strength: Melee damage/bth and non damage type specific bonus damage
    Dex: Ranged damage/bth and dodging
    Magic: Magic damage/bth and mp(no defensive abilities)
    Endurance: hp and sp regen(or possibly helping resist status as Lupul has brought up to me)
    Charisma: Pet damage and bth and something small, no clue what.
    Luck: pretty much the same as it ever was

    This is an off the top of my head example but str lets warriors show off superior damage(which they don't right now), dex gets treated as a true mainstat as well as being more defensive(benefitting 100 proc bows and the FD playstyle), int is our same as it ever was mage stat, endurance actually becomes worthwhile, charisma just really needs some love because boosters make pets/guests worthless in most cases. Also this would let hybrids(str and int) for instance show off superior damage to mages while losing a utility stat like charisma.



    dark_foot -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 17:07:34)

    LUK ~Should be for initiate and lucky strike chance.
    DEX ~Should get split into 2 stats~ DEX and PRECISION which give dodge and ranged weapon damage respectively.
    CHA gives more pet damage so beast masters don't need Pre/Str/Int

    my thoughts



    RMC -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 17:24:06)

    My suggestion would be:

    -Remove BtH bonuses from STR & INT and add them to DEX, LUK still maintains its small BtH increase.
    -DEX now grants BtH with diminishing returns per 5 points, the first 150 points will grant ~70% of the BtH while the last 100 points grant the remaining ~30%. There would also be a noticeable decline in BtH after 150 points.

    -Ranged stat damage is split at a ratio of ~60/~40 to DEX and STR respectively
    -Ranged stat damage on STR will also have diminishing returns. the first 150 points will grant ~70% of the damage while the last 100 points grant the remaining ~30%. There would also be a noticeable decline in damage after 150 points.


    I based my numbers on the 200 STR/INT & 200 DEX model and balanced them so that 250 STR/INT & 150 DEX would be roughly equal in terms of DPT. It's mostly guesstimates but the idea is that damage would be higher while BtH would be lower on non-ranged builds to account for the fact that you now have 250 on your mainstat.
    Ranged builds would get amazing value out of dex but would need to invest some points into STR if they want to have respectable damage output. A ranger with a 250/150 DEX/STR build would do less damage but be more accurate than a warrior or mage. This would also differentiate the warriors and rangers more as the non-100% ranged builds are more or less identical to warriors atm.

    The idea is that every build puts point into dex but doesn't nessecarily max it aside from ranged builds. There'd still be a reason to max DEX on non-ranged builds but it'd make max DEX less mandatory. Right now the only build that can feasibly run a low/no dex build without relying on rare/premium items is a werepyre hybrid.



    Aura Knight -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 17:41:57)

    Why does it have to be complicated? Dexterity only boosting Ranged damage will be great. Then you can have luck as your accuracy and evasion stat since you need to be lucky to hit more and not get hit much. In making Strength, Dexterity, and Intellect their own separate main stat you can then allow any build to use Luck in place of Dexterity and things would be better in the end. This unnecessary desire to have Dexterity be unique is only hurting the many build possibilities you all claimed we'd have due to this stat update.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 17:44:05)

    Another perspective:

    STR offers the main damage and accuracy bonus to Melee attacks: 
    Melee Weapon: STR/8 
bth: STR*3/40 + DEX*3/40 + LUK/40

    INT offers the same amount of damage in the 20-turn model using magic weapons and spells: 
    Magic Weapon: INT*3/32
Magic Skill/Spell: INT/4 
bth: INT*3/40 + DEX*3/40 + LUK/40

    but STR also offers 80% of ranged weapon damage: 
    Ranged Weapon: STR/10 + DEX/40
bth: DEX*3/20 + LUK/40


    Technically, doesn't this mean STR is more powerful than INT? It offers melee weapons the same damage bonus offered by INT to spells/magic weapons and also offers damage bonuses for ranged weapons? It makes sense to make DEX into a mainstat for ranged weapons because it also resolves this issue



    Branl -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 17:44:15)

    250 [Mainstat] 250 [Luck] 250 [Charisma] or 250 [Mainstat] [250 Luck] [250 Endurance]
    How does that help build diversity?


    quote:


    Technically, doesn't this mean STR is more powerful than INT? It offers melee weapons the same damage bonus offered by INT to spells/magic weapons and also offers damage bonuses for ranged weapons? It makes sense to make DEX into a mainstat for ranged weapons because it also resolves this issue


    Makes sense. Making Strength a minor stat for ranged damage would be a good change.



    ruleandrew -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 18:29:18)

    Treatment A
    For ranged type of damage, increase dexterity role in term of weapon stat bonus damage (dexterity should contribute 40% of the weapon stat bonus damage, not counting lucky strike).

    For other type of damage, decrease dexterity role in term of weapon stat bonus to hit (dexterity should contribute ~28.571% of the weapon stat bonus to hit).

    Treatment B
    For ranged type of damage, increase dexterity role in term of weapon stat bonus damage (dexterity should contribute 40% of the weapon stat bonus damage, not counting lucky strike).

    For other type of damage, decrease dexterity role in term of weapon stat bonus to hit (dexterity should contribute ~14.286% of the weapon stat bonus to hit).

    For blocking, increase dexterity role in term of blocking stat bonus (dexterity should contribute ~85.714% of the blocking stat bonus).






    Rastaban -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 18:32:40)

    quote:

    Charisma: Pet damage and bth and something small, no clue what.


    How about a small chance of the monster not striking as hard as it otherwise could, sort of like a lucky strike but with reduced damage? If our charisma is so great that we can tame monsters, machines, and whatever else and even make them want to fight harder for us, I don't see why not. A few monsters already have a similar effect upon us.



    Kalle29 -> RE: PSA: Dexterity (1/14/2019 18:35:21)

    My own thoughts:

    1. Make CHA be the sole pet/guest stat so DEX doesn't fill this role.

    2. Buff LUK by reinstating the old Lucky strike damage formula.

    3. A slight increase in STR's effect on melee BtH so DEX still gives melee BtH but not quite as much.

    I'm against removing STR from ranged attacks since that would make it possible to get full melee damage from ranged attacks while also giving you the extra BtH and dodging that STR doesn't give.



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