RE: Guests (Full Version)

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ballistik -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 5:35:26)

@Fman - At first you were saying we shouldn't nerf guests because they provide a way for casual players to complete the hard challenges => meaning they are overpowered. Now you're saying we shouldn't nerf guests because they're actually not that strong? So which one is it? It seems to me like you are trying to defend the usage of guests in two contradictory ways.

If you use the blind of the pirate guests consecutively and combine that with the Pirate class and you'll have a constant blind of at least 70 to the enemy. For any boss that doesn't have bth, that is overpowered. Not-So-Tiny bubbles was nerfed for this exact reason.



Ace Woodlink -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 7:10:19)

So this is why I woke up to a new guest nerf in this single-player game.

Jeez.



The_element -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 7:48:42)

In my opinion, Verylus should've made Pandora Ex and subsequent inn bosses have 300 immobility instead of the current the standard 200 immobility. If this was done, the nerf to guest stun would be unnecessary and wouldn't hurt certain beastmaster builds. In terms of the pirate guests, I don't use them, but maybe they can be 'fixed' by preventing their blind from stacking (?).



Mooselim -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 16:36:11)

@xelessarx
quote:

Inn by itself already mostly adresses to endgame players apart from some exceptions, which excludes a big amount of players already. Banning guests from the inn as a whole would only cause more people to be excluded as there are players who either can't beat some bosses without guests (Mostly NDC players) or simply just prefer playing with guests more. I think that it is also important that there will be more than a bunch of overgeared/overpowered players to enjoy the challenges so that Verly and Dove's works can get appreciated more widely.


Every challenge can be and has been beaten NDC. If you mean NDA, here's quotes from discord from Verlyrus about his opinion on NDA and the inn.
quote:

Well, the fights aren't necessarily designed for NDA
These challenges are not balanced for non-DA at all, because the disparity in power is so huge. If there is a challenge that is beatable by non-DA then that's awesome that there is a strategy for that.


@Ace Woodlink
quote:

So this is why I woke up to a new guest nerf in this single-player game.

Just because it's singleplayer doesn't mean it should be unbalanced?



Vignesh -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 17:03:43)

quote:

I think that it is also important that there will be more than a bunch of overgeared/overpowered players to enjoy the challenges so that Verly and Dove's works can get appreciated more widely.


If they gain the gears through the use of guests what are the odds that those players won't just use guests to cheese the next challenge and end up not appreciating the mechanics of the challenge. I feel like the players that just cheese the challenges aren't the ones going back and learning the mechanics and appreciating the fight after they've already picked up the gears.

I could be wrong though :/



G Man -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 17:08:30)

I'll keep saying this so long as calls for nerfs/bans happen.
I don't care if you don't want to hear it. It IS the truth of the matter.

DF is, has, and will always remain a single player game.
How one plays the game doesn't matter to another.
If you play on the most challenging difficulty, and do all the challenges with Angler, fine, perfect, good for you.
But; if someone else plays with DMKv1, Baby Dragon, and 2 strong guests and steamrolls the content because that's just how they play, then that should be fine and acceptable.

Having as much fun, enjoyment, and content for as many people as possible is better than not.

If you feel something trivializes the game, just dont use/do it?
It's literally that simple of a solution.

Why should the few ruin something for the many?



Vikken101 -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 17:18:36)

@G Man
quote:

DF is, has, and will always remain a single player game.
How one plays the game doesn't matter to another.
If you play on the most challenging difficulty, and do all the challenges with Angler, fine, perfect, good for you.
But; if someone else plays with DMKv1, Baby Dragon, and 2 strong guests and steamrolls the content because that's just how they play, then that should be fine and acceptable.


But the is Inn CHALLENGES, not story or general questing. You are suppose to struggle and develop strategies for challenges, and this in the past, guests has often negated.
Feel free to use whatever classes and guests in content that is not designed to be challenging. In your opinion, DoomKnight V1 shoud not be banned right? Since players should be able to do what they want, even though it would completely trivialize Inn challenge, making their purpose void.

Saying its a single player game is not an excuse for not having balancing in your game at all, especially when its live updated. Inn challenges are designed for endgame players to have something to chip away at, in-between other releases. Not to be steam rolled by cheesy tactics. Verlyrus has implied that he still wants guests to be available in the inn, but in a non-cheese way, that can complement strategies and help develop new once , and when guests get to that point, they will be completely acceptable to me. For now they kinda serve as either being used as meat shields, or being used in combinations with stun or blind cheese, not "real strategies". Which i appreciate Verly is addressing.



Mooselim -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 17:25:26)

The "single player game" argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why shouldn't unbalanced strategies be nerfed in a game, singleplayer or not? The devs clearly care about game balance judging from how they are nerfing things and how they are buffing things, and saying that "oh, this is a single player game so balance doesn't matter" makes absolutely zero sense to me. I just don't understand this chain of logic. Am I missing something? Because this seems to be a pretty commonly held belief.



FMan -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 17:30:58)

No contradictory , I wrote that guests may provide a way for casual players/ players who dont have the best gears in game / just have extremly hard time clearing an X challange / don't have a class which is good to counter a challange ,to be able to complete SOME challanges , you added the OP yourself. In short I wrote that guests help people, gotta TC of all the spectrum of the players, and players who don't want guests can not use them, and I did say that they aren't as useful as they made them sound, however sometimes in some strategies and challanges they may be the diff between a cleared challange or not, just like the fact that in some challanges, they may make things worse .just a note about OP- means that guests are the top strategy, magic solution, 100% of the challanges, which make every boss cleared easly without thought , without option of failure ( egomaniancs alone already ruin that ) ( same 2 guests pair, the fact that some guests good at X challange, some are at Y, already ruin that point ).

About the replay to the Unicorn guy ( good manners ofc, just got a long nick xD ), he said we shouldnt use guests in overall, then gave 2 spesific guests and made them sound like a magic solution for every challange, and replayed to him cases when those 2 may make things worse .

About contradictory, where were you when a guy mentioned that he cleared challanges using guests, yet pro banning it? , Using a feature and wanting to disable it is contradictory ( clearing a spesific challange when guests helped him clear it, got the rewards, now can ban them ). ( No offence to the guy who wrote it, Im sure it wasn't out of bad thought, just wanted to give him an example of contradictory from the side he supports ).

Also using 2 spesific guests, which may be good in X situation ( single boss low bonus ) , and wanting to ban all guests is an extreme move and unsolid explanation. Its like wanting to ban dragonslayer from any challange , because hes good at the dragons board, not a solid arguement, using a class/ strategy to counter inn bosses is how we clear the inn, and pretty much do it in every challange - using a strategy which makes you strong againt X boss.



The_element -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 18:34:29)

Guests don't necessarily make inn challenges easier, especially when taking into account for the duo fights. As far as I'm aware, in the past duo fights nobody really used guests except for in certain beast master builds, the increase in damage would mean that the guests would die very quickly unless you were using various skills to protect them, such as, pirate class' blinds along with pre-nerf not-so-tiny-bubbles. The only other way I think they were used, were that guests would sometimes be used as RNG meat shields- I don't really know much about this strategy, because I try to avoid RNG. Even the pirates sound bad for longer drawn out duos, hence why they didn't see much play in the past.

So far we've had threads asking for a ChW nerf, a thread about Dragon Element Scythe being a 'mistake' and now guests being 'too unbalanced'. Talk about ChW nerf has died down now, probably because ChW couldn't instantly defeat the no-heal gauntlet challenge, so the people demanding the nerf had lost precious DragonFable clout. More than likely, people would've forgotten about the use of guests in rogue strategies in a few months once we started to see traditional duo fights again. I reckon in the future, people will ask for a pet dragon shield nerf, because you can use baby chimera and pet dragon shields consecutively.

The guest stun strategy isn't consistent unless you're using technomancer or pirate, both requiring setup, and isn't even removed- it just requires more RNG. Also the stun strategy wasn't that great for duo fights for most classes, because an RNG based stun (pre-nerf RNG level) isn't worth the increase in damage in most cases. In my opinion this problem could have all been resolved by making Pandora Ex and subsequent single inn bosses have 300 immobility instead of the current standard 200 immobility resist.




ballistik -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 18:44:35)

@Fman, you're talking without doing any research. In fact, if you were to actually check on youtube, you'll be able to find several videos of egomaniacs being done with guests. Moreover, in the videos, you'll notice the person is not even equipping any fire res. You know egomaniacs can actually be a hard fight without stacking fire resistance, but in those videos you can see it being stomped, because of guest stuns. Because both of the bosses in egomaniacs are stunnable. So I don't even know why you thought egomaniacs was hard for guests.

Also, you don't seem to understand what you're saying. If guests can make it possible for a casual player to complete a challenge without even getting good end-game gear, that implies they are overpowered. To complete a challenge, you need to get a good understanding of its mechanics and get the appropriate gear. Not just equip guests and roll with it. The Inn is not a place for casual players to just go get some new shiny items. I mean why even want those items if they're just gonna use guests anyway?

Also, there's nothing wrong for a person to admit they've used guests and be pro-banning it. That means they actually have experience on the subject and can realize why the guests need adjustment.

As for your dragonslayer argument, this is also something you haven't looked into. The devs of dragonfable have admitted that they actually didn't want dragonslayer to be able to steamroll those challenges. They were even thinking of changing the enemy type to not be dragon, but because the challenge was already out for some time and it was the first challenge, they left it at that. However, if you've noticed, enemy type after that have always been something that doesn't have a strong weakness. There's no more dragons, there's no elementals, etc.

The Inn is also not just finding a class that completely counters the challenge and makes it trivial. For this reason, the devs banned V1 and they also banned Icebound Revenant (because it trivialized Primordials). So yes, the devs care about balance a lot actually.

@The_element - you're also talking without researching. First of all ChaosWeaver can complete the no-heal gauntlet. The talk about nerf has died down, because we realized that ChaosWeaver was super good against the recent single target fights, but not the duos. ChW is not even that good for the latest hard single challenge (Pandora EX). But it's still possible that it will get nerfed, since it can be extremely strong for single target and that might need to get adjusted. For your other point, RNG based stuns were completely worth it, because when the boss is stunned, they can't damage you.

Guests being used as RNG meatshields is not balanced. A challenge shouldn't be to just try it a couple of times with guests, until the boss attack the right guest. Moreover, pirates were not used as much before, because the pirate class was reworked last year. That's why these Pirate & Guests strategies started emerging. Because, the current pirate with the pirate guests is too strong for challenges without bth (which are actually a lot). Same with Technomancer & Guests, technomancer was reworked last year and now can decrease all and immobility resistance, making it possible for these stunlock strategies to appear.



Vignesh -> RE: Guests (2/23/2020 18:56:29)

quote:

The guest stun strategy isn't consistent unless you're using technomancer or pirate, both requiring setup, and isn't even removed- it just requires more RNG.


There's a video on youtube of a guy just stomping the no-heal challenge gauntlet with 0 effort with technomancer and guests that you should check out. The only problem would be superior superiority but that's an issue for every class. Also there's almost no set up required beyond just using 2 skills and dragon fumes. You are downplaying how cheesy and simple the stun cheese was. The nerf to guest stuns addresses it well imo because it doesn't hit DmKV2 will break.



xelessarx -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 0:09:19)

@Mooselim I did never say that the challenges are not beatable for NDC. I don't even know what you mean or how this is relevant. Let alone it is not the samething when you grind the hell out of items as NDC (which is really time consuming and only a marginal number of people actually has the time to farm a ridiculous amount of DMs etc.) to be able to beat the enemy and when you usually just slap ChW's Gambit -> Aegis -> Rebuke -> Syphon/Food.

The games are not about beatability, it is about if enough people can beat them with enough number of different strategies.



ballistik -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 4:50:55)

@xelessarx, this is your quote from earlier in the thread: "as there are players who either can't beat some bosses without guests (Mostly NDC players)". This is what mooselim was replying it, so I'm not sure how you don't know what he means. You pretty much stated the most people who can't beat bosses without guests are NDC, that's what mooselim debunked.

Your ChaosWeaver rotation is also very weird and it's not at all an optimal way to play the class. Aegis should be used when you are approaching low health, not on second turn. Rebuke should usually be used 2 or 3 turns after aegis (preferably with slice in between), since that will guarantee you'll be at 1 hp.

Your last sentence does not even make sense. It's contradictory. You're saying it's not about beatability, but then you say it's about how many times you beat them with different strategies => this implies beatability.

Inn is a challenge arena. It's all about the challenge.

Anyway, one of the only points that has been brought up, that I can agree with, is that it's good to have variety and guests can provide more interesting ways to beat a challenge. However, as of right now some guests are completely broken and the 50%dmg increase is not enough. If the usage of guests promoted interesting strategies instead of promoting ignoring mechanics, that'd be okay. I think nerfing pirate guests blinds, nerfing leon (a guest with whole warrior skill set is broken) and adjusting the guest enemy scaling might result in a more balanced gameplay. That way guests can contribute to a more varied gameplay without being the overpowered thing you resort to if you can't do a challenge.



BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 5:47:49)

quote:

About the replay to the Unicorn guy ( good manners ofc, just got a long nick xD ), he said we shouldnt use guests in overall, then gave 2 spesific guests and made them sound like a magic solution for every challange, and replayed to him cases when those 2 may make things worse .
It's what we call an example, my friend.

quote:

About contradictory, where were you when a guy mentioned that he cleared challanges using guests, yet pro banning it? , Using a feature and wanting to disable it is contradictory ( clearing a spesific challange when guests helped him clear it, got the rewards, now can ban them ). ( No offence to the guy who wrote it, Im sure it wasn't out of bad thought, just wanted to give him an example of contradictory from the side he supports ).
Please do not make and spread false assumptions about me or anyone else. I beat Pandora EX without extra potions, food, guests, or lucky dragon fumes strategies so I completed the challenge without any add-ons or unnecessary RNG at all. I did so for all other challenges as well, and I tried a few with guests, too, and seeing how pathetically easy they made challenges made me want to start this thread in the first place.

quote:

Also using 2 spesific guests, which may be good in X situation ( single boss low bonus ) , and wanting to ban all guests is an extreme move and unsolid explanation. Its like wanting to ban dragonslayer from any challange , because hes good at the dragons board, not a solid arguement, using a class/ strategy to counter inn bosses is how we clear the inn, and pretty much do it in every challange - using a strategy which makes you strong againt X boss.
The point of the Inn is to come up with a class or strategy that gives you an advantage over a challenge (such as, and this is only an example, using Technomancer against Sepulchure and making use of his Mana Leech ability to boost your damage), but Guests on the other hand, not just give you an advantage over but trivialize all challenges. This is not healthy for the Inn at the moment and this is why I feel they should be nerfed.

quote:

So far we've had threads asking for a ChW nerf, a thread about Dragon Element Scythe being a 'mistake' and now guests being 'too unbalanced'. Talk about ChW nerf has died down now, probably because ChW couldn't instantly defeat the no-heal gauntlet challenge, so the people demanding the nerf had lost precious DragonFable clout. More than likely, people would've forgotten about the use of guests in rogue strategies in a few months once we started to see traditional duo fights again. I reckon in the future, people will ask for a pet dragon shield nerf, because you can use baby chimera and pet dragon shields consecutively.
I mentioned this before but the ChW nerf topic was only brought up because of the sheer volume of Inn Releases (almost a whole year's worth) composed of easy fights that had to be beaten multiple times, which glorified hyper-offense, which ChW is among the best at. This made it seem relatively overpowered when compared to other classes and that's why we requested a nerf. The ChW nerf thing died down because the developers promised to release more duos and trios and complex solo extremes which of course wouldn't be as easy for ChaosWeaver to do on its own, which with the release of Pandora EX, is evidently going to happen. ChW was actually one of the first challenges to complete the Gauntlet without healing, so I don't know where you got that from. Pet Dragon Shield and Chimera can be used in conjunction but their cooldowns make it so that they are not loopable, as they are long and only one of them will cool down as only one can be equipped. Neither does it deserve a nerf nor will it be asked for. The point is, we do not ask for nerfs to things that are strong, just things that are overpowered and trivialize the challenges and the effort poured into them.

I would like to end my post with a quote from Verlyrus himself:
quote:

I dont really want to blanket ban guests since i think they can be made interesting and not awful cheese

So they are not being banned, some of them will likely be nerfed and there will be changes to make them less of an RNGfest.



xelessarx -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 5:59:08)

Hoo boy.

Firstly, I used the exact quote you posted, @balistik, yes. Mooselim replied as, paraphrased, "No, NDC people can beat it." What my quote means is pretty clear I think but if you want me to eleborate on that it means there are some players who can't beat some inn bosses without the help of guests and most of those players are NDC players. Nothing along the lines of NDC being completely unable to beat challenges without guest help. So I don't see what debunks my point as what Mooselim said is literally just that NDC people can beat every challenge. If what you mean is that he debunked some point that I didn't even raise to begin with, sure yeah, he did debunk an imaginary point noone claimed, kudos.

Yeah whatever, the point is not the rotation itself there, it was just more like an example for the fight ending moves of ChW but I am not claiming that I am good at ChW rotations anyway.

"Beatability" means if something is whether beatable or not. 1 or 0. What I say is that there should be many different strategies and options to beat them, for the game to be a good and fair one. I wouldn't like to go into semantics or be pedantic but sorry, you claimed that I was contradicting myself by telling that my sentence doesn't make sense and if there is a point that I couldn't get across, I prefer to make it clearer.

I know that inn is about challenge and you are correct about it. What I say is that the high difficulty of the challenge doesn't always worth excluding most of your playerbase from the game. If those hard challenges were released like 2 times in a year in a huge bulk, I'd say it is fine. The current releases of inn has become marginally harder than how it was in the past especially for the less item grinding spectrum of the endgamers (Again Pride, Apex, ExPandora, Gauntlet etc.). Is the challenge worth excluding so many players from the inn which already mostly excludes people who are not endgamers? It might be, if it is not in an almost every-month basis like it recently is. People need more chill challenges too, like in the past where they shouldn't have grinded a ton of DM gear etc. to win. And it still IS a "challenge" even in that case.

It is also funny seeing how many people mentioned that guests are bad because of their highly unreliable nature and you can not repeat a winning situation with them healthily, yet "most" of them are all silent now that guest stun got nerfed. Guess what? Now with this current stun nerf guests are EVEN MORE random! They are now (one of) the most chaotically unbalanced feature of the game or something because their stuns are ALSO RNG now.

I appreciate Verly's work and choices mostly but, here I have to disagree with this game design choice. I also think that guests needed a nerf (Not a blanket ban from inn), or something that would make them more balanced and less RNG dependent (This is what I think as the worst side of guests. Them being so random sometimes.) maybe bosses doing multi-attacks, guests having nerf on their damage, Sir Leon having his stun time dropped to two rounds (Which is not "really" a problem imo tbh. If a class is ridiculously OP as to kill an 12-16k hp enemy during the 3 round stun, the problem is in the class, not the stun itself.) or even a combination of those. Like, if you don't want some boss to get stunned always, you can make it have between -200 and -300 immobility too. I can not see how making the guests who are already RNG dependent even more RNG dependent is the optimal choice here, there is literally a ton of other options in the basket. Not to forget this nerf also affects guests outside the inn hugely, like with Galanoth and Zhoom during story quests in b1, where newbies take the advantage of the 1 turn stuns.

Welp, that's it. Hopefully this time it is clear enough.




BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 6:47:02)

quote:

"Beatability" means if something is whether beatable or not. 1 or 0. What I say is that there should be many different strategies and options to beat them, for the game to be a good and fair one. I wouldn't like to go into semantics or be pedantic but sorry, you claimed that I was contradicting myself by telling that my sentence doesn't make sense and if there is a point that I couldn't get across, I prefer to make it clearer.
Verlyrus agrees with this and that's why he aims to make guests less outright broken and more interesting as strategies. In the light of this I agree that guests should be allowed in the Inn but they should be nerfed, should have their health buffed per guest, etc. so that guests don't make challenges as easy as they do now. And there are already multiple strategies for players to beat most challenges with just a DA (and in some cases even without), but you have to actually understand the fights' and your class' mechanics, which is the purpose of the Inn in the first place.

quote:

I know that inn is about challenge and you are correct about it. What I say is that the high difficulty of the challenge doesn't always worth excluding most of your playerbase from the game. If those hard challenges were released like 2 times in a year in a huge bulk, I'd say it is fine. The current releases of inn has become marginally harder than how it was in the past especially for the less item grinding spectrum of the endgamers (Again Pride, Apex, ExPandora, Gauntlet etc.). Is the challenge worth excluding so many players from the inn which already mostly excludes people who are not endgamers? It might be, if it is not in an almost every-month basis like it recently is. People need more chill challenges too, like in the past where they shouldn't have grinded a ton of DM gear etc. to win. And it still IS a "challenge" even in that case.
Nobody is being excluded from the Inn at all, and I don't see how using Guests to trivialize Inn Challenges is fair in any way. The entire purpose of the Inn is to make you actually come up with a way to conquer a challenge and I cannot stress this enough and am really tired of doing so. If you cannot play the Inn legitimately and use cheesy tactics to trivialize it, then you don't deserve its rewards and it is senseless to argue otherwise because then everyone would be running around with strong gear that's supposed to be hard to get. If you open your mind to strategies that do not involve RNG guests fests, you'll find that you will be able to beat challenges without them. There are so many good classes and gear available to non-endgamers too. If you're facing difficulties, you can always ask other people who have beaten the challenges for advice and they will happily provide it to you, not to mention, there are lots of NDC strategies on YouTube too.

quote:

It is also funny seeing how many people mentioned that guests are bad because of their highly unreliable nature and you can not repeat a winning situation with them healthily, yet "most" of them are all silent now that guest stun got nerfed. Guess what? Now with this current stun nerf guests are EVEN MORE random! They are now (one of) the most chaotically unbalanced feature of the game or something because their stuns are ALSO RNG now.
I agree and some of us brought this up with Verly on discord. Verlyrus tweeted out that changes are on their way so I'm waiting to see how it goes.



xelessarx -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 7:05:20)

Keep in mind that my initial posts are not against sensible guest nerfs but the initial demands of banning them from inn and the last one is more of an answer to @ballista, whom I couldn't get what I meant across clearly. And also about the recent guest nerf, which I didn't know was discussed in discord with Verly. I am glad to hear that and thanks for telling us about it.

About not being excluded part, well, I don't agree with that. I know that not everyone can take a part in it as inn is supposed to be an endgamer content and it is okay, in my opinion. I simply think that all the most recent inn challenges are a bit too difficult compared to past challenges especially for NDC players and this is what I think makes the inn even more focused towards a group of people who has more time to grind/strategize etc. recently. Difficult challenges are pretty much okay now and then but I'd like to see more challenges that can be achieved by more people with more different methods/builds/classes like in the past.




ProbablyCallum -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 7:06:56)

The main problem isn’t even pirates, or other specific guests and their movesets. It’s the enemy random targeting inserting unnecessary RNG/unreliability that is generally in the player's favour, with guests being able to act as big dumb meatshields. The vast majority of Inn content isn’t balanced with guests in mind, so when people bring along guests to force bosses into whiffing all of their status ailments and nukes on meatshields while you go about your gameplan without a care in the world, it's extremely unethical and unfair. Nerfing guest stuns is definitely not the way to go about fixing the guest problem.

This is what guests are used for: not a fair way of fighting bosses but a way to bypass mechanics for players who don’t want to put any effort into learning anything about a boss or its mechanics. They will then go and complain about "options being taken away" when their favourite chewtoys for nobraining fights that are meant to be brained could potentially get taken away. You can even see plenty of them in this thread, quaking at the prospect of actually having to learn the fights they've been bypassing and skipping until now, though I imagine instead of doing that they'll just resort to a different method because these people would rather do anything other than think - most likely VIK/FC/hamsters abuse (which should definitely be gutted as well, but that's another topic).

It’s not "options" they want to stay, it's their precious skip buttons so they can continue skipping challenges in manners that no one would ever consider ethical or fair - and that is why you'll never ever see them complaining about "options being taken away" regarding balance changes to things that don't pertain to their skip buttons. The fact of the matter is that if you cannot be bothered put in the effort to learn and then beat a challenge, then you do not even remotely deserve the reward or the right to have opinions regarding the gameplay side of DF, because they will only ever be from a position of utter ignorance and a complete lack of understanding of basic game design with advocations for even things as idiotic as v1 being allowed for challenges because "it would give more options to the player" when what they really mean is "i dont want to think but I want the rewards that are reserved for people who do think"



The_element -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 7:16:55)

@ballistik

quote:

@The_element - you're also talking without researching. First of all ChaosWeaver can complete the no-heal gauntlet.


In my previous post I said the following:

quote:

Talk about ChW nerf has died down now, probably because ChW couldn't instantly defeat the no-heal gauntlet challenge, so the people demanding the nerf had lost precious DragonFable clout


This implies that I was saying ChW can complete the gauntlet, but obviously with some difficulty and not as easily as the individual corrupted seven challenge. I think you misinterpreted my sentence in my last post.

I also remember in the last 'Pride' thread, I was telling people that they should hold their opinion until harder single and duo fights returned before demanding a nerf to ChW. Here's a quote of a post from that Pride thread:

quote:

To be fair, the recent inn challenges we've had are from the Exaltia Tower, The Corrupted Seven and the Displaced Fates boards, which have all made ChW seem overly strong. Some of the recent challenges seem like they're really geared up for an offensive class like ChW. I don't think ChW is problematic right now, it's just really good against recent inn bosses where it's either a 1v1 challenge, has really low hp or the boss takes time to set up. I think when we return to regular duo fights, we'll probably not think of ChW as highly.


A lot of crazy things were said in that last thread and on the discord, some players even compared ChW to V1, and the same players on this thread are the same players that asked for a nerf to ChW on the Pride thread last month. Two new hard challenges arrived, the gauntlet and Pandora Ex, and a lot of people lost their clout. I think before any talk of a ChW or guest nerfs are spoken about, people should just wait until the regular duo fights return, and then make an informed opinion.

Also, the guest strat isn't even gone it just requires more RNG. I said this before and I'll say it again, in my opinion this problem could have all been resolved by making Pandora Ex and subsequent single inn bosses have 300 immobility instead of the current standard 200 immobility resist.

@ Vignesh- I'm not sure what your point is? YouTube isn't a good example, because it can make any class and strategy seem OP in the right hands. Here are some links on YouTube that I think you should check out.

Rogue vs ancient duo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOilKjCet3E
GPS vs ancient duo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNVnypvsujY
Chickencow vs ancient duo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c83rcRI6XIk

@BluuHorseOfficial- Read the top half of this post.

quote:

I mentioned this before but the ChW nerf topic was only brought up because of the sheer volume of Inn Releases (almost a whole year's worth) composed of easy fights that had to be beaten multiple times, which glorified hyper-offense, which ChW is among the best at. This made it seem relatively overpowered when compared to other classes and that's why we requested a nerf.


This is why people should show restraint with their opinion. I think before any talk of a ChW or guest nerfs are spoken about, people should just wait until the regular duo fights return, and then make an informed opinion. Also, the guest strat isn't even gone it just requires more RNG. I'll say this once more, this problem could have all been resolved by making Pandora Ex and subsequent single inn bosses have 300 immobility instead of the current standard 200 immobility resist.



Marthe -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 7:23:07)

Last week, I initially spoke in favor of a blanket ban because I perceived it as a simple and quick solution to the issue of guests. Verlyrus has since spoken about a desire to balance guests to make them usable and interesting but not overpowered, instead of just a ban from the Inn as a whole. I want to make it clear that I am in favor of this kind of solution, because what I ultimately want is a balanced and fun game, not a personal crusade against guests as a concept - that would be silly. However, I did not initially mention this because I believed it to be very difficult and time consuming, especially for a programmer who already has an extremely large amount of work on his plate. It simply didn't seem realistic. That said, I'm pleasantly surprised to see that I've underestimated Verlyrus, and I am eager to see the solution he comes up with. I just hope that it's not too much work and won't cause burnout.



xelessarx -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 7:23:31)

@Callum I agree with most that you "want to" say but you don't need to be so uncivilized, I'm pretty sure nobody here harassed or assaulted you and there is no need to take everything so personal. If stuff like game design discussions like that make you feel so overwhelmed as to lose your temper like that, I'm pretty sure you need take some break from these discussions or the game itself.

Also, although you seem not to like it, guests are a feature in the game and they "can" actually give more options to the player. What people trying to do here is to find the optimal route without banning them completely out of inn or leaving them as tools that are used to bypass boss mechanics. If you will not make a constructive addition to that, you might as well not make one at all.

See @Marthe right there? That is exactly what a constructive post would be.

I also think that we can help by pointing out the "maybe" unnoticed stuff Verly did not notice and if he finds them implementable and fine, I think that is a plus. I don't think that there is a harm in mentioning about those and Verly can decide for himself if it would be too much of a bother or not.



spirit of greed -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 7:49:31)

A know it's an unpopular oppinion here but i don't get it why so many people upset about it. Honestly i don't like where this topic goes. Some people just can't beat the challenge bosses, some just don't like very hard boss fights and they use guests to make it a little easier. These fights are still very hard guests or no guests.
Is it unfair? No i don't think so. It's part of the game and it's up to the player if he use it.
Even though i don't use guests i think it's really unfair towards other players to ban guests.



ballistik -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 8:00:29)

@The_element - I understood what you said, ChW could do no-heal gauntlet immediately. There was a rotation posted within an hour of the gauntlet that either could be done with the heal buttons or using food. It's still the fact that the ChW discussion wasn't affected at all by the gauntlet. Nobody lost "clout". The videos you've posted are not good examples. In fact, the first one is mine and let me tell you that video requires lots of preparation/brainstorming, an exact list of gear and lots and lots of tries. It's mentioned in the description. It's more of a meme, than an actual strategy. As are the other 2 videos. They are all very hard to replicate and require in-depth knowledge of the fight.

The videos vignesh and I were talking about were technomancer & guests being able to do egomaniacs and the gauntlet without any prep. No special equipment (in fact it is very sub-optimal) or in-depth strategy. And the difference is that the description of those videos even states that it's a reliable easy strategy.

@xelessarx - Let me explain what I meant about your quote "as there are players who either can't beat some bosses without guests (Mostly NDC players)". First, how do you know this? Where do you have this information from? Is it from a biased small sample of players, or do you have access to game statistics about what's the percentage of NDC players that succeed/fail challenges? To me the quote is an opinionated claim. However, the way the quote is stated, it naturally implies that the reason most people can't do challenges without guests is because they are NDC. This is the implication that was debunked by mooselim. Every challenge can be completed with NDC, non-rare items / classes. Who knows, maybe indeed most players that can't complete the challenges are NDC, but that is not because they are NDC. There might be a correlation, but it's not causation. Anyway, at this point we are arguing semantics, so I won't continue this quote topic. We should focus more on the guest issue.

Verly will be releasing new changes in the upcoming release, so we can wait for them. I agree with Marthe that balancing guests would be a good solution, if it is feasible for Verly. Banning is more of a solution, if the changes are not feasible.




BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: Guests (2/24/2020 8:08:20)

I second Marthe's post, it explains everything I want to. Callum's post is harsh but ultimately fair.

@The_Element
The entire point of Ancient Duo is to dodge all of Gananana's Debuffs and Augahim's Boulder. As such, classes that can loop defenses aand Blind Gananana on the non-defended turns can complete this challenge. However, Guests make it so that you can hold out for a run where the get hit by Gananana's attacks most of the time and the player doesn't have to eat the debuffs and as a result, provide an extremely unfair advantage in this challenge. All of these videos are meme videos, and of course, required a few takes to get right, but let's look at this on a case by case basis: Base Rogue paired with high MPM gear has very solid defenses through its shields and thus can complete this challenge with some difficulty. GPS has a loopable blind and a strong shield for Augahim's Boulder. Chickencow used FC and that is an OP strategy so I don't have to elaborate on that. There are other bad classes such as Shadow Hunter (through its Long Blind Combo) and Guardian (loopable Blind, pet swapping, Zard Burgers), Ninja (variety of shields) that have completed this challenge, and all of these required careful planning and had to be done multiple times over to get a good run in which the starts align and you win. All of them required lots of effort and knowledge of the fight's mechanics to win whereas Guests just require you not getting hit until you can nuke Gananana, which isn't even hard to do with Rhubarb and Mazurek blinding it all the time, or really, anyone else (sensible) by your side. Also, naturally any video you see on YouTube is gonna make a fight look easy because people strive to get the best content out there.

Just FYI, I know all of the people who made these videos and they're all in favor of nerfing guests lol.

@xelessarx
quote:

I know that inn is about challenge and you are correct about it. What I say is that the high difficulty of the challenge doesn't always worth excluding most of your playerbase from the game. If those hard challenges were released like 2 times in a year in a huge bulk, I'd say it is fine. The current releases of inn has become marginally harder than how it was in the past especially for the less item grinding spectrum of the endgamers (Again Pride, Apex, ExPandora, Gauntlet etc.). Is the challenge worth excluding so many players from the inn which already mostly excludes people who are not endgamers? It might be, if it is not in an almost every-month basis like it recently is. People need more chill challenges too, like in the past where they shouldn't have grinded a ton of DM gear etc. to win. And it still IS a "challenge" even in that case.
Inn Challenges are Dove and Verly's way of cooling off as they require less effort to make, as confirmed by the devs. Releasing quality releases weekly is obviously a very exhausting task that is being carried out by only two people and in my honest opinion, they should be given a week each month to cool down and take things slower or work on something else they have in their mind because they really deserve it. Releasing a lot of Inn Challenges at two points of the year would be appealing for some players ig (not a fan personally) but the well being and convenience of the already overworked devs is also something to be considered.

Anyway, as I said, Verlyrus will be changing Guests soon, hold your horses and leave criticism when the change to the actual issues that you're complaining about arrive.
Here is the Tweet by Verlyrus saying so: http://twitter.com/VerlyrusAE/status/1231255774443319298
Please don't bring up the Guest Stuns issue further because it is being looked at. Thank you.



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