RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (Full Version)

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CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 16:32:38)

I don't particularly wish to involve myself too heavily, but I do want to clarify a couple of points for everyone involved:

quote:

...Accounts and am now being denied the token chances by 10X times ...

This isn't quite how it pans out in reality. Allow me to demonstrate with a simple hypothetical: Imagine a simplified version of the contest that involves 3 players. Player 1 has 10 characters, Player 2 has 5 characters, and Player 3 only has the one. Under the old system, Players 1 and 2 have 10 and 5 times the chances of receiving donations than Player 3 respectively. If 100,000 Z-Tokens were donated in this hypothetical contest, you'd expect Player 1 to receive 62,500 Z-Tokens (as they own 10/16 total characters involved), Player 2 would receive 31,250 Tokens (as they own 5/16 characters involved) and Player 3 would only receive 6250.

Let's now switch to the new system. At first glance, you'd think that the chances of Player 1 to receive Z-Tokens would decrease tenfold. However, that's not what happens. Each player (account) is equally weighted, worth 1. This means there are 3 total accounts in the contest, with each account getting an even share (33,333 Z-Tokens). Yes, Player 1's share has decreased, but only by about half, not by a factor of 10. Meanwhile, Player 2's share has increased slightly, and Player 3's has increased more than fivefold.

The ratios are obviously going to be different in the real contest. However, the point this example raises is that this change might reduce your chances of receiving a donation by a relative factor of 10, but it doesn't reduce your total share by that amount. This brings me onto the second point: the 'significant reduction in donations'

If you're seeing a notable reduction in the number of donations you're receiving, it demonstrates that there are a number of players that used to have a much smaller chance of getting a donation. They now have the same chance of receiving one as you. It's a sign that the distribution system is more equitable and is having a significant impact.




Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 16:45:21)

A loss of received tokens for the ones who typically donate most will lead to lower donations from them decreasing the overall total amount of tokens in circulation.




CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 16:55:30)

Thanks for raising that: The total amount donated and the amount of currency (read: Gold/Z-Tokens) in circulation are not the same thing. An inefficient system leads to a large amount of regifted currency, causing the contest to bias towards rewarding those best at regifting rather than solely rewarding the most generous.




Sir Cloud -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 16:58:48)

quote:

People who do more should get more. The expected standard shouldn't be lowered to accommodate all who do less. I predict this will end up one of the lower total donations for the winter season. I've no interest for fairness if it advantages those who play less while wasting the time of those playing more.

Now that's logically thinking about it there @Aura Knight and it just makes sense. +1 to this! [;)]

quote:

No such time wasting is being asked of anyone. We've done away with wasting everyone's time.

And exchanged it for taking away account (multi-characters) chances at donations by 10x in the process. Thereby catering to those who play on less characters.




Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 17:03:34)

If more gifts reach people who can't spend much, the gifting system becomes both clearer and fairer.

If they find the tokens themselves more appealing than the contest's rewards for recirculating them, that could certainly be taken an incentive to both make the rewards themselves better and to circulate more gifts in the first place, as the value offer comparison between keeping and regifting tokens changes with one's supply. However, equalizing the odds of gift reception rewards gifting more than it does regifting, as generously gifting will more reliably progress a player along the rewards than depending on the consideration of whether to keep or regift each incoming gift.

If the reward thresholds need to be recalibrated according to the evolving ratios, that can certainly be passed along.

quote:

And exchanged it by taking away account (multi-characters) chances at donations by 10x in the process by hence catering to those who play on less characters.


Odds have been equalized, not arbitrarily reduced, and not even by that factor, as helpfully explained above.




Sir Cloud -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 17:17:30)

quote:

Odds have been equalized, not arbitrarily reduced, and not even by that factor, as helpfully explained above.

Totally disagree with these odds. If you only allow for 1 character to receive tokens then how is that NOT 10x less for an account with 10 characters playing and giving out token donations everyday (on the previous system)?
By the way, testing bears this out, as I and many others on Discord have noted a ridiculously dismal return on token donations compared to previous contests. I have received less than 700 total tokens on 20 characters due to this new system. Been logging battle wins everyday on all of them. So the new system is quite deplorable for multi-character account holders. I can actually earn more tokens daily by just doing normal battles than from this contest. [:'(]




Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 17:24:32)

quote:

how is that NOT 10x less for an account with 10 characters playing and giving out token donations everyday?


The odds are not reduced by a factor of 10 because the odds are dependent on the entire set of accounts that the donation is calculated between, as someone already explained at the top of this page. Neither is the system to blame for raw luck nor a lower volume of donations for the winter contest, or for what I explained above about the value comparison between keeping and regifting tokens (The ratio of the latter is what would drop).

Let's not ignore each other, please.




CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 17:28:57)

You are not seeing many token donations because (i) the total amount is much lower (we haven't even reached 2,000,000 Z-Tokens donated yet), and (ii) there is much lower regifting, as it's reaching players that want to keep the donations more efficiently.




Aura Knight -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 17:30:17)

That lack of regifting will lower the ending total.




Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 17:35:34)

Tokens being regifted doesn't make them multiply. The total is the same. And as mentioned above: If the reward thresholds need to be recalibrated according to the evolving ratios, that can certainly be passed along.




Sir Cloud -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 17:37:47)

Since I record every donation received and given out on all my characters here are some stats to put in perspective with this new system:

(Same as this year's time frame by comparison playing on 20 characters with logged in battle saves everyday)
Last Year 2023 Frostval Donation Tokens received as of December 14 TOTAL Tokens received = 6,725
This year 2024 Frostval Donation Tokens received as of December 14 TOTAL Tokens received = 550

No I don't think that's even close to being fair or equal in chances. BTW, that's well over 10x in difference, LOL

@below: well your idea of basic math doesn't quite reflect reality by this comparison. Even if you allow for RNG which is a factor, I agree. But the disparage of range in amounts is entirely too large to ignore. In effect, the math doesn't lie.




Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 17:43:02)

Then one would be remiss to not point out that chances are by definition not guarantees, and a partial result does not change the basic math about the odds.

Edit: The math indeed does not lie, as it doesn't promise identical results to a random operation in the first place. A point of data is not by itself a point of argument. Regardless, I'm afraid the discussion has run through several circles and there is only so much I can explain while being, at best, ignored. Have a wonderful Frostval, everyone.




CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 17:54:40)

If one of your donations were 500, 1000, or 5000, it would have changed the outcome significantly. There is a difference between random variability (which is high when donation amounts vary from 25 to 5000) and overall averages.




Sir Cloud -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 17:56:57)

quote:

If one of your donations were 500, 1000, or 5000, it would have changed the outcome significantly. There is a difference between random variability (which is high when donation amounts vary from 25 to 5000) and overall averages.

Again, like a broken record, 9 out of 10 characters have been effectively removed from token earnings "chances" with this horrible change altogether. It ruins gameplay in donos for multi-character account players.




Lorekeeper -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/14/2024 18:02:28)

Thread locked pending moderator review.

Anim mod:
Whether it is account based or character based, there will always be a more or less favourable side. Being character based allows a wider distribution among players, while also removing the errand to go through all of one's characters each day. I appreciate that the change isn't for everyone, however, this time around the contest has been stated to be account based.

To put the qualms to rest surrounding the final Z token tally. There are no stretch goals or milestones to unlock, so there's less pressure to meet any targets.

The mentioned point for lack of returns for those who have time invested in numerous characters is a point of note, though is somewhat offset by the increased chances to win a Crown of Frostval for one of the characters on an account.
(Dev Anim: I'll still give it some thought, and float any ideas to the rest of the team regarding improvements.)

Back to Mod Anim:
However this is the Season of spreading joy, not maximising gains. Thus the topic of whether it should be account or character focussed is not up for further debate at this point. ~Anim

Ps. The point on the level 135 chest has been seen. Pending outcome.

Oh, also unlocked.




Bu Kek Siansu -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/15/2024 13:40:29)

Some words were to be posted before you unlocked this thread.

My apologies if some words should not be mentioned here.

Thanks in advance.


It was NO issue after it has been changed.

Players got Z-Tokens and Gold based on a Luck factor before
regardless of 1 character or multiple characters or 10 characters.
I didn't find someone said if it was fair or not during a past contest.

Why should fairness be talked/used this time?

Why should it randomly be chosen 1 character from a multiple or 10 characters?

I think, the best way is to turn it back to as it was.

Just be it, happy or not if others got more/less
regardless of the amount of characters they have.

quote:

Ps. The point on the level 135 chest has been seen. Pending outcome.


How about the low level ones ( 15, 35, 55, 75, 95, 105 )?
And my post here? http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22419843





Sir Cloud -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/15/2024 13:55:29)

quote:

I think, the best way is to turn it back to as it was.

+1 to this! I couldn't agree with you more @Bu Kek Siansu about this (now closed) topic. Thank you for your valued input and the common sense reasoning in your entire post! :)




GwenMay -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/15/2024 14:12:56)

I support this change to account-based donations instead of character-based for largely the reasons expressed by Lorekeeper. While this topic has already been heavily discussed, I wanted to weigh in to provide my perspective as AQ's top donor overall and in the last few contests.

My view is this: AQ has a responsibility to be fair towards their players, not player characters. This means ensuring tokens are evenly distributed to active players. The only way to accomplish this is to make donations account based, not character based. I appreciate the argument that highly invested players who play more should receive greater rewards. But the former system of logging in daily on 10 alts does not reflect a higher investment than other players. Spending 10 minutes each day logging into low level alts to quickly defeat shower monster does not make you a more active player than someone who spends the same amount of time or longer actually playing the game (e.g., questing, warring, farming, or defeating challenges) on one character. It certainly does not justify receiving 10x as many tokens (often a $50+ USD difference in value) as other active players.

As a donor, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth whenever I donate several million tokens to the community which mostly go to "storage 7" or "token mule 3" or other obvious token alts. I donate above and beyond what I need to because I want to support the entire community evenly, not mostly players abusing the system to receive more than their fair share.

I also do not appreciate how many of the players who use the 10 alt method are consistently able to achieve 100k or more in token donations every summer and, with that, achieve high placements on donation leaderboards without actually spending much if any money or their own tokens. I know of many examples of players (both this summer and in past events) doing this. This regifting does not actually help the community or reflect the spirit of generosity donation contests are meant to inspire. All this accomplishes is ensuring that some players are able to snipe top donation rewards for free or nearly free, potentially depriving top slots from players who spent real money but did not know to play 10 alts daily. This is especially unjustifiable as only players with specific knowledge gained from spending significant time on AQ forums, discord servers, or reddit - many of which are unofficial, and none of which are advertised or explained in-game - would know to play 10 alts daily to gain a 10x advantage in tokens. If we are being frank, this unfair advantage is what many players arguing against the donation change in this thread want to preserve.

This change does not remove the advantage of having alts. Alts are still very helpful for farming and storing gold, farming 50+ tokens daily per alt, storing items, and experiencing different playstyles. I also agree with Anim that there should be some reward for playing on alts, such as receiving a higher chance for giveaway items like the Crown of Frostval. These advantages are more than enough to encourage alt creation - we do not need to divert millions of token donations every year from other active players to alt-users. And the quality of life benefits from this change are obvious.

As others have pointed out, this change is likely to lower regifting and thus the total amount of tokens and gold donated. I do not think this is much of a problem for token contests - we easily blew past all community token goals the last few years, and removing regifting would not change that. It may have more of an impact in gold community goals. But all this means is that staff may want to consider adjusting community goals, not reverting to character based donations.

In short, I 100% support the change to account-based gifting and encourage staff to retain this system in future contests.


Gold storage topic: I regret to inform you but upon asking and looking into unfortunately we cannot release gold storage for free players due to data limits and maintaining server stability. ~Anim

This Season will remain account based. The topic is not up for discussion or debate going forwards. Please acknowledge further posts on character vs account based will be dealt with the utmost severity.~Anim




Bu Kek Siansu -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/23/2024 8:58:11)

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22419578
quote:

  • 10 new Verdant Earth Frostval Crown Misc items are being given away DAILY for everyone that gifts either gold or Z-Tokens (5 daily for gold, 5 daily for Z-Token). You can double your chances of winning if you gift both gold and Z-Tokens in a single day!



  • http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=22419888
    quote:

    This Season will remain account based.


    This is regarding about the Verdant Frostval Crown of Precision.

    10 Verdant Frostval Crown of Precision are being given away DAILY for everyone
    that gifts either gold or Z-Tokens (5 daily for gold, 5 daily for Z-Token).

    Regardless of the amount of Characters
    1 AQ Game Account will/can ONLY get
    1 Frostval Crown of Precision because of account based.

    Do you think I've misunderstood in this case?

    If all AQ Game Accounts already got 1 Frostval Crown of Precision,
    while there are still 10 days left before it ends January 31st (11:59 PM EST),
    will the 10 Verdant Frostval Crown of Precision still be given away DAILY?
    If yes or if no, how or what?





    Bolter -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/23/2024 10:55:30)

    quote:

    We're aware of the need for the paintings, and have said that we want to do them, so rest assured that we've read your feedback! However, it's not just a matter of support, but needing time to dedicate work to them. Anything before the year of the oldest painting that isn't specifically set up for the quest hubs will need to have a new hub and painting set up. It would be something good to look at once we've decompressed the accumulated workload for a while.


    Any update regarding any possibility of re-releasing the Pre-2014 Frostval Paintings?




    Bu Kek Siansu -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/23/2024 11:15:03)

    Bolter, check it out! [:)]





    Heroes of the Scape -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/23/2024 11:49:33)

    quote:

    [Regardless of the amount of Characters
    1 AQ Game Account will/can ONLY get
    1 Frostval Crown of Precision because of account based.

    Do you think I've misunderstood in this case?


    Yes, you're misunderstanding. Any character that donates is eligible to receive a crown. I have received 2 crowns after the change to donations. The only limit is a character cannot win twice.




    Bu Kek Siansu -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/23/2024 14:49:18)

    I'm almost giving up since I received 1 Crown.

    Thanks for your correction and explanation.





    CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/26/2024 18:22:02)

    We've just passed 3 Trillion Gold and have successfully unlocked the misc. Good job everyone!




    Dreiko Shadrack -> RE: =AQ= Frostval Season of Gifting Returns (12/26/2024 22:58:46)

    I do believe that's the fastest we've achieved 3 trillion gold in one of these. [8D]




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