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RE: Is MQ Dying II+How Can We Improve It?

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11/30/2010 20:05:15   
stealthwings
Helpful


 I disagree. Better to have chaos, than to have wrong balance.
Also, each stat is more important in specific situations. For example, if your enemy has really high boost, and insane damage, but no bonus buff, then bonus nerf will be very useful. If they have high bonus, but normal damage, then boost nerf would be more useful. If they have high defense and most of your specials rely on hitting, def-nerf would be useful, but if your stuff didn't, it would be useless.

Also, not everything is a buff/nerf. Even if everything was, there is also over time-ness, activation rate, and length.

Examples of things which are not buffs/nerfs:
Extra damage/crit on attack
DoT
EP DoT
Reflection
RHs SC Shield
Stunning
HoT
Heal
Regen Halt
Cooldown reset
Weapon laceration
Forced Cooldown
And many more

And then there are lots of things which could come, which are not.
DF MQ  Post #: 676
11/30/2010 21:38:55   
trans205
Member

^Each of the things you listed could be compared to those of the ones in AQ

quote:

Examples of things which are not buffs/nerfs:
Extra damage/crit on attack --> lucky strike
DoT --> Prismatic burn
EP DoT --> MP drain
Reflection --> Well, you got me. But reflection is pretty rare
RHs SC Shield --> No idea what that is
Stunning --> paralyze
HoT --> regeneration
Heal --> healing spells
Regen Halt --> pretty much useless. Good mechs can take enemies out in 4-5 turns. Energy draining builds are rare
Cooldown reset --> cool downs...everything has either 2 or 3. Besides, stronger weapos will probably have higher cool downs. not a difficult subject
Weapon laceration --> Got me again.
Forced Cooldown --> again, never heard of it


"Wrong" balance is still balance

< Message edited by trans205 -- 11/30/2010 21:40:16 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 677
11/30/2010 21:49:15   
stealthwings
Helpful
quote:

Examples of things which are not buffs/nerfs:
EP DoT --> MP drain Better than MP drain. Without EP, you cannot attack at all, without MP, you just can't use skills.
Reflection --> Well, you got me. But reflection is pretty rare
RHs SC Shield --> No idea what that is Very similar to reflection, it just reflects 50% of the opponents damage at your own EP. Cuts their damage to you in half after everything, better than boost nerf, which is beaten by boost buff.
Regen Halt --> pretty much useless. Good mechs can take enemies out in 4-5 turns. Energy draining builds are rare Good EP draining builds (Most of which use regenhalt) can take out an enemies EP in 3 turns. And they can do that to things which nerf them into oblivion, unlike offensive mechs. Not all builds in MQ are offensive. Also, as I said earlier, unlike MP drain, they can do absolutely nothing without EP.
Cooldown reset --> cool downs...everything has either 2 or 3. Besides, stronger weapos will probably have higher cool downs. not a difficult subject I meant stuff like the kelvin zero. Resets all cooldowns.
Weapon laceration --> Got me again.
Forced Cooldown --> again, never heard of it When you add cooldown to your opponents weapons. For example, the shoulders of the CDPA


And, there is effect wipe. Not just the shadow purge and the shadow blight (wipe all effects from you or your opponent depending on which one) Also the subzero gaze and the zorbo, and iirc the viking. Anything which only allows itself as the thing affecting that stat.

Wrong balance is not balance. Chaos is better than wrong balance. What we have now, is not that bad, we just need more non-rares.

< Message edited by stealthwings -- 11/30/2010 21:52:15 >
DF MQ  Post #: 678
11/30/2010 22:22:36   
trans205
Member

Define "wrong" balance. When the AQ "sweep" started back in 2008 (7?), many people opposed the idea, thinking it'll take the fun from the game. Now two years later, with the sweep (almost) halfway done, we just can't wait. Again, most of the effects you listed are only present on a couple of mechs, likely rare.

Honestly, you only need one single mech with its defaults, preferably offensive, to take down 99% of the enemies in the storyline (excluding Necryptos). Whereas in AQ, you need your entire inventory to match up to the combinations of the monsters.

< Message edited by trans205 -- 11/30/2010 22:30:49 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 679
11/30/2010 22:34:27   
stealthwings
Helpful


 So we should just exclude everything else which doesn't fit?
Wrong balance=When things pretend to be balanced but are not.

And necryptos exists. Why are we excluding that?
DF MQ  Post #: 680
11/30/2010 22:38:59   
trans205
Member

The staff can definitely figure out a formula; it's not rocket science.

Also, because we're supposed to use Vampire Hunter for Necryptos.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 681
11/30/2010 22:44:48   
zeke50100
Constructive


 That has absolutely nothing to do with balance in either of the respective games. Furthermore, I believe that's the wrong way of looking at things. In AQ, you need armor, weapons, shields, and spells to defeat a variety of enemies; in MQ, you need chassis, arms, shoulders, and heads to defeat a variety of enemies (Not to mention you rarely have to change your equipment set mid-quest unless you're doing some sort of challenge, anyway).

In any case, weapons, spells and armors in AQ do not interact in the same way every piece of equipment does in MQ. Everything in AQ works as a single, static hit modifier, whereas MQ effects are rarely as static (proc rates in MQ have a much more drastic effect than they do in AQ), and pretty much everything in MQ is time-based. You cannot simply assign point values in the same way as in AQ, because a BoT of +10% Boost over 4 turns is far different from a flat +100% Boost for one turn, further augmented by the fact that missing in MQ can destroy your entire strategy (in AQ, everything is essentially treated equally and does the same thing; missing hit 1 will not totally screw you over where missing hit 2 wouldn't).

There is no syntax to attacking in AQ beyond dealing as much damage as possible in the fewest amount of turns through the use of Attack and/or your spells. MQ is different because the syntax of your attacks will definitely change the outcome. Classes, of course, are generally exceptions. Think of every Mecha in MQ as being a class, and every piece of equipment on that Mecha as its skills. It's more difficult to balance every piece of equipment in the same way every weapon is in AQ unless you want things to have nothing more than base/random damage.

~Zeke~
MQ  Post #: 682
11/30/2010 22:49:46   
stealthwings
Helpful


 No, a V-Hunter is for lazy people who don't want a challenge. Never listen to NPCs. Especially at gears. The advanced combat teacher told me to nerf what my opponent buffed. That is a terrible idea, always nerf the thing your opponent doesn't buff. (besides defense, just never nerf that)

I don't play aq, so I can't really compare it.

< Message edited by stealthwings -- 11/30/2010 22:53:07 >
DF MQ  Post #: 683
11/30/2010 23:01:56   
trans205
Member

Alright, I may be making the wrong metaphor. I'm trying to say that if AQ could be completely balanced, so can MQ. And frankly, DF already has its class standards, and, along with the 9.0.0 engine, on its way to being "balanced" as well.

quote:

No, a V-Hunter is for lazy people who don't want a challenge. Never listen to NPCs. Especially at gears. The advanced combat teacher told me to nerf what my opponent buffed. That is a terrible idea, always nerf the thing your opponent doesn't buff. (besides defense, just never nerf that)


You can't really defeat the entire Necryptos storyline without the aid of a Vampire Hunter or one of the hunter weapons. Not with the current NSC non rares you can't.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 684
11/30/2010 23:05:49   
mechquestlord
Banned


 i know of a nsc rare which can beat miracynia in one hit on xtreme...
MQ  Post #: 685
11/30/2010 23:07:49   
trans205
Member

I doubt it.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 686
11/30/2010 23:22:35   
forumlogin
Member

@stealth
But that spec is SC-only, therefore no NSCs can ever complete Necryptos.
Anyways, going to address a few points 1-by-1:
1.
quote:

No, a V-Hunter is for lazy people who don't want a challenge.

I thought I already addressed this. :/
A. Even with the V-Hunter many parts of Necryptos are still a challenge.
B. Without a V-Hunter, you need lotsa rares, many rare for almost a year now, AND SC-ship in order to stand a chance at Necryptos.

Will edit in more points since there are several posts not covered in the last 10 posts.

2.
quote:

But you will have to use it more than once. It is extreme mode. And then there is also the subzero gaze, the seppy, the shieldbash, and lots of others. None as well-used as the zorbo though.

And it can't beat all of necryptos, not since myracyrina got buffed.

A. Only for PvP fighters. :/
Of which I and many others are likely not.
And for goodness sakes', does something HAVE to be able to beat Miracyna to be OP? As I've said multiple times before, Miracyna should not be the standard of balance, otherwise everything'd break.

< Message edited by forumlogin -- 11/30/2010 23:25:05 >
DF MQ  Post #: 687
11/30/2010 23:24:09   
trans205
Member

And it's rare...woo...

I disagree. AQ is more complex. You have 48 options in battle, as opposed to the six in MQ. There's no "wide variety." Pick a rare mech and clear your path of enemies with defaults. MQ doesn't even have "elemental" resists (Examples: laser, ballistic, explosion, etc.) Also, every mech practically have about 80-90 stun resist and every good stun weapon penetrates through that resist.

Anyways, in AQ, you need to time, uh, stuff too. For example, my Beastmaster Mage needs to wait for my pet to nerf the enemy's defense. In that allotted time period, I need to figure out which method is best to damage the monster. Weapon, weapon with CIT, or spell. After that, I just pull out the mage robes + eye of naab + spell. Depending on how the monster dodges the nerfs, the battle could take a while.

And don't get me started on status effects and SP management.

EDIT: BoT: once you run out of it, apply a new one. This is exactly my mech's little "strategy." After the Ticklish Zorbo's defense buff decreases to 75%, I apply a -20 bonus to the enemy. Once it falls to 50% on the next turn, I apply another -20 bonus, for a total of more than -90 bonus for the enemy for three turns. By then, the battle has already been decided.

< Message edited by trans205 -- 11/30/2010 23:31:49 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 688
11/30/2010 23:29:39   
forumlogin
Member

@trans
It's also an SC-only spec on a 1-day only mecha that's over a year and a half old, IIRC.

And since trans posted I can post another point without double-posting. :D
I said this before, but I believe balance standards can be set by preexisting non-rare weapons. No-one seemed to see it that time, though.

For example, Warbear would certainly be OP back then because there were no existing weapons, rare or non-rare, that boosted anywhere near that amount of damage with a 100% proc rate and no drawbacks.

Even now, those weps would still be considered a tad too strong.
Yes, there is a weakness (defense), but
1. Oftentimes Warbear's sheer power can overwhelm defenses anyhow and
2. Compared to any other mecha, Warbear most certainly is in a new level of power and
3. That's like saying any offensive weapon or mecha, no matter how powerful, is never OP because it's got a weakness. :/

< Message edited by forumlogin -- 11/30/2010 23:30:09 >
DF MQ  Post #: 689
11/30/2010 23:31:12   
ZamuelNow
Constructive
quote:

ORIGINAL: stealthwings

Wrong balance=When things pretend to be balanced but are not.


It sounds like you're saying the staff shouldn't even try. Which is rather unhealthy for the game's long term survival. And honestly it sounds more like you're spending this time bragging about your accomplishments as opposed to trying to think of ways to improve the game which was the point of the thread the last time I checked.

quote:

Never listen to NPCs. Especially at gears. The advanced combat teacher told me to nerf what my opponent buffed. That is a terrible idea, always nerf the thing your opponent doesn't buff.


Yes and no. Pending on the stat, weapon, and situation it may be better to prevent an enemy from capping their stats. The wording of the class seems to assume a limited amount of equipment. Plus, the time it was created was before we got a lot of the much more powerful weaponry we have access to now.


Due to the way MQ progressed, I think it's in need of fixing the way progression is handled. Arguably, Yokai and Necryptos shouldn't scale down lower than lvl 25 while the Westion Chapter 1 fights that cap at lvl 20 and 25 should be lowered to 15. The story is pretty linear and adjusting enemy scaling is one way to help guide things in the right way for new players. This may result in the need for new equipment and mechs in certain ranges but that was most likely needed anyways.
DF MQ  Post #: 690
11/30/2010 23:36:09   
trans205
Member

^I agree. Actually make Weston for lower level players, and stuff like Yokai for higher level players. That way, there would actually be purpose in leveling up.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 691
11/30/2010 23:38:21   
stealthwings
Helpful


 Wasn't the conversation about myracyrina over a long time ago? All I was doing, was confirming that mqlord was correct. I did NOT intend to restart that conversation. Since it accidentally did, I deleted it. That discussion is over.
And the staff should do it right. It would be a waste of time to try to categorize eveything like trans suggested.

< Message edited by stealthwings -- 11/30/2010 23:44:25 >
DF MQ  Post #: 692
11/30/2010 23:45:50   
zeke50100
Constructive
quote:

ORIGINAL: trans205

I disagree. AQ is more complex. You have 48 options in battle, as opposed to the six in MQ. There's no "wide variety." Pick a rare mech and clear your path of enemies with defaults. MQ doesn't even have "elemental" resists (Examples: laser, ballistic, explosion, etc.) Also, every mech practically have about 80-90 stun resist and every good stun weapon penetrates through that resist.


I'm failing to see how that proves how AQ is more complex. Rather, I think it's a PERFECT example of things being imbalanced in MQ.

~Zeke~
MQ  Post #: 693
11/30/2010 23:48:36   
trans205
Member

Judging from your level and equipment, I see you have yet to experience the full effects of the AQ sweep. But that's not the topic right now, and I respect your opinion. However, picking up a rare mech and bulldozing your way with defaults isn't my definition of complex.

@below: I'm not saying MQ should have resists, nor am I saying that they would make the game better. It's just that MQ is not complicated, compared to AQ.

< Message edited by trans205 -- 11/30/2010 23:58:05 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 694
11/30/2010 23:53:05   
ZamuelNow
Constructive
quote:

MQ doesn't even have "elemental" resists


I personally hate this argument since I feel it tends to dumb down strategy rather than promote it. Enemy has -300 Energy? Just grab that lightning sword and shock it without trying.

quote:

And the staff should do it right. It would be a waste of time d
to try to categorize eveything like trans suggested.


I don't think it would be a waste of time. It could be argued that maybe it should be categorized a little bit differently but the effort should be made. The main problem is time. With a lot of the other things that need to be done, a massive rebalancing may not be feasible. However, things should be eyed for the future. I'd argue that adjusting cooldowns would do a lot to solving problems with the power curve.
DF MQ  Post #: 695
11/30/2010 23:58:04   
zeke50100
Constructive


 Complexity isn't literally just "how much stuff you have to do to win". It's how the game mechanics work to create more complex situations. Sure, you may have to change armors every other turn in AQ to win a particular fight, but that is NOT a "more complex" game; it is actually fairly simple. AQ is simple in that everything directly has to do with damage, and deals with all of that in a single turn (aside from the few other specials and classes, of course). In MQ, things are much more indirect, inherently resulting in more complex situations because you have to deal with indirections rather than just a static set of numbers that are always present.

Experience also does not dictate the ability to use logic to determine the results of different situations, BTW :P

In short, complexity is not the amount of strategy or the number of clicks required to win. It defines the actual process by which everything is carried out.

~Zeke~

< Message edited by zeke50100 -- 12/1/2010 0:00:25 >
MQ  Post #: 696
12/1/2010 0:03:34   
trans205
Member

^From what you're posting, I see you're just repeating yourself, no offense. Take it from someone who played AQ for four years and MQ since beta, and gained reasonable levels on both.

quote:

In MQ, things are much more indirect, inherently resulting in more complex situations because you have to deal with indirections rather than just a static set of numbers that are always present.


I understand. AQ does indeed have a lot of indirections. In fact, the randomness of the damage in AQ throws me off practically every other turn. In MQ, unless opponent dodges, you're guaranteed to get that ~70 damage, and that -40 bonus to the enemy. And again, I think you're new to AQ's SP system. The SP system is completely a "synchro" thing. Have to manage it well, whether you're using miscs, guests, or special attacks. The SP regenerates at a fixed amount. It's fairly easy to run out of SP when you're using miscs, guests, and special attacks. Choose one; and later at the right time, choose another.

< Message edited by trans205 -- 12/1/2010 0:05:00 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 697
12/1/2010 0:09:59   
stealthwings
Helpful


 Levels mean nothing. You admitted that all it took to beat most mq enemies was one mecha with defaults. MQs strategy is much more complex than the enemies require. MQ is more complex, it just has no (excluding necryptos) enemies which require you to use a high amount of strategy
DF MQ  Post #: 698
12/1/2010 0:11:17   
trans205
Member

^I didn't emphasize on levels. Sure, you say that MQ is not showing its full potential, which the staff needs to provide. I, personally, am looking forward to that.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 699
12/1/2010 0:13:36   
ZamuelNow
Constructive
quote:

It's just that MQ is not complicated, compared to AQ.


I'd argue that they are complex in different ways. AQ allows access to all abilities and you have a lot to juggle. MQ gives you only a few options at a time and you have to manage what you have at a given moment. DF is halfway between the two. While it could be said that rares throw things quite out balance, rares aren't what you base balance on anyways.
DF MQ  Post #: 700
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