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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX

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6/18/2012 20:06:05   
Midnightsoul
Member

@ND Mallet

but that also gives blood mages a better chance to multi element. when I try to emp a blood mage, it's like nothing happened and he can continue to damage me as I sacrificed a turn...
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 276
6/18/2012 20:09:54   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @blood How so? Bludgeon and Fireball are both locked to Physical damage. Or do you prefer them having the ability to hit you with huge damage on both damage types? I personally prefer Bludgeon because I could throw up something like DM and block their Strength Skills entirely. That's assuming they use an energy staff and a physical gun(which most people usually do with strength builds).
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 277
6/19/2012 20:37:08   
Midnightsoul
Member

^and there are blood mages who also use energy guns and primaries who are just as bad as ones with the berzerker build. If bludgeon has a slightly higher energy cost, it would actually be useful for energy draining players because BMs generally still have enough energy to use ALL their str moves still...

I find it funny how u made it sound like if DM increases block chance also...it doesn't. XD Just one question...have you played Cyber Hunter AND Blood Mage?


-Midnightsoul
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 278
6/19/2012 21:42:02   
Hun Kingq
Member

Since people are talking about nerfing Blood Mages again how about this take away Bludgeon and put no new skill in place that way they could only have one strength based skill, fireball. Let us go even further, take away super charge and have one tech based skill, Plasma Cannon. Let us Nerf even further, have one Dex based skill by taking away Plasma Rain, since it is too weak for a powerhouse class, and only let them have overload.

So the skill tree would look like this

Field Medic - fire ball - energy shield
Plasma cannon - Blood Lust - Overload
Reflex Boost - Intimidation - Deadly Aim

Let's take the Nerf even further all weapons and skills have a cool down of 6.

If you want a nerf to a class that is how you do it so do it right for now on.

To get good damage a Blood Mage Have to rely upon raw high strength because they have no kind of boosts and with high strength they have low tech and dex making them vulnerable to high damage attacks. Bludgeon I have seen blocked more often then Berzerker which max Berzerker with high strength does more damage then Bludgeon, especially when merc/tact merc boosts their strength.

If you want to see less strength Blood Mages then fight for getting the new classes new multis and fight for restoring the multis back with improvements to what they were but better. Everyone here knows what they did with the multis was the worst balance idea ever but instead of wanting that fixed people calling to nerf this nerf that, have them fix what can be fixed in one week they suggest something new for them to work on.
Epic  Post #: 279
6/19/2012 22:50:25   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @Blood I haven't played CH or BM in awhile because I tend to get bored really fast with OPd builds/classes. The only exception to that rule is strength abuse. I switched from BM to TM to show people that TMs have more to them than defensive builds. Also, as a TM with a Max Assimilation, I tend to have very few problems with draining the energy of Str BMs unless they block my attack. To be honest, I have had Assimilation blocked more times than I've had a time where my Assimilation didn't drain enough energy.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 280
6/19/2012 22:52:09   
King FrostLich
Member

quote:

Let's take the Nerf even further all weapons and skills have a cool down of 6.


Wow so when you're gonna get emp'ed how else will you use your other skills? Depends now on gun and strike? That's silly, if I were to use strike, gun, aux and then robot, what else would I do?
Epic  Post #: 281
6/20/2012 1:00:08   
khalidon5000
Member

Sarcasm detected.
Epic  Post #: 282
6/20/2012 1:18:59   
Midnightsoul
Member

@ND

Hm...well, say that if you do happen to use bludgeon quite a good amount...I was only suggesting increasing the energy cost by 3 at most...it is too efficient to me in my opinion. I also understand these Op'ed builds so I was suggesting a slight nerf because I can actually beat BMs as a 5 focus CH...unless they have str of 26-32+34

Btw, if you do look at the...I think the second page of this discussion, I have made quite a few moves for each evolved class.
With respect...


-Midnightsoul

< Message edited by bloodknight997 -- 6/20/2012 1:27:22 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 283
6/20/2012 5:44:42   
sylar67
Member
 

 Strength has been a major problem nowadays due to its wide open use , this stat can be used unlimited times per fight witch is very wrong not even do u get unlimited strikes the skills that improve with str are improving in a very fast way like firebolt for example and bludgeon and massacre well massacre doesnt count much since its a 4th scale attack and has a warm-up , and improving your gun and many other stuff ...
unlike support witch has been ignored these last days support only buffs a few skill 1 only attack , the mercenaries multi and yet the aux has a 3 turns cooldown .
1 of the changes that should happen is lowering the cooldown of auxiliaries to 2 and highering the gun cooldown to 3 .
Post #: 284
6/20/2012 13:08:59   
veneeria
Member

Hey guys, just a quick balance idea I just came with... What if after an (considered OP)amount of Str, the probabilities of being blocked/deflected improve?

Bad idea? Or not?
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 285
6/20/2012 13:27:35   
ansh0
Member

make fireball scale with support
Epic  Post #: 286
6/20/2012 13:43:20   
Stabilis
Member

@Veneeria,

Bad ideas do not exist.

This may negatively affect balance though; stats are balanced on a groupings of advantages. It is true, Strength has no perks unlike Support that helps to determine the first turn. Strength does have a massive advantage though in it's relationship to weapons. Strength maintains 2 weapons, both of these weapons have the lowest cooldowns of all. Primary weapons even lack a cooldown! This is a heavily waning factor in comparing weapon power. I made quite a few graphs to display a weapon's damage over time. Cooldown is extremely important. (I will post a graph here)

It is difficult to compare weapon damage to stat perks though, as they are completely unique items. The chance to critical strike does not guarantee the event of a critical strike; even after trillions of attempts to procure a critical strike. We may as well not compare weapon damage (a constant) to a stat perk (a rate... a figurative value). For this reason we should compare the damage potential of weapons without perks.

(Will finish this post when I link a graph)
AQ Epic  Post #: 287
6/20/2012 15:00:10   
friend18
Member

@ansh0 - Fireball improving with support would not make sense though. Support is used for skills like defense matrix because it's a support skill. EMP improves with technology because you're throwing an EMP, an electromagnetic pulse. Stun grenade improves with dex, a stat primarily reserved for physical skills (besides multi-shot and plasma rain). I see support as a stat similar to luck on Dragonfable. It's good in small amounts.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 288
6/20/2012 15:02:02   
Remorse
Member

Hey everyone :)

Been a while since I posted on here and I see not much has changed in terms of decent balance. ( plus my bad spelling hasnt got any better....)


To break things down into simple.


Balance Problems ( My opinion)

First off I catogorise balance and its problems under two catagories.

1. Everday small balance problems. eg. oped/uped skills, oped/uped robots , oped/uped stats and most likely Oped/uped skill combinations.

This part of balance seams to be BULK of discussion in this thread aswell as most attempts to fix balance focus on this part of balance alone.

2. The bigger picture. eg. speed versus effort. The overall slow deacrease of thought needed in battles, The fact that SPEED dominates and it has no downside were as back in the old days a trade of for a speedy build is EASILY countered by those with SMARTS. These days speed is extremely difficult to counter but LUCK takes its part in ALOT of ways (not just normal luck also things such as wepon specials etc.) on all builds but it brings down the speedy builds from godlike to reasonable. The only diffrence is LUCK is what is brining down speedy builds and therefore SMARTNESS is becoming less and less needed.



In my opionion the first catogory of balance problems are insignificant compared to the second, often I think small changes made to balance problems are as a result of trying to fix the first catagory but it often fails due to the fact many balane problems in the first catagory are braught about by the second in less obvious forms.



I push those able to do something to put aside insignificant changes to balance braught about the first catogories problems and focus on fixing the bigger picture,
It is my greatest belief in balance that many of the first catogories problems will fix themselves just by drastic measures to the second catogory for the good of the game.

Some drastic measure include MAJOR nerfs to all speedy builds but as a trade of MUCH more fair luck.

Before you get all defesive about your all so precious speed builds just think for a second, what is it that brings you down? It is luck 9/10 so would it not be fair to nerf all speed in trade off for better luck, smarts and an actual decent less frusterating game?

Im not saying speedy builds should be removed, I just think they are far to powerful and effective for the thought required and effort needed.
Wouldnt speedy builds be better as builds much more easily countered by smarts? But much less prone to luck?

If you are smart and use speedy builds you should be able to use that smart and not be DESTROYED BY LUCK!
And if you are agianst a speedy build and not one yourself you should have a fighting chance with wits rather then required luck!
Fuel for a thought ,

Remorse Less.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 6/20/2012 15:19:13 >
Epic  Post #: 289
6/21/2012 1:35:13   
Death Jr
Member

Hello my fellow EpicDuelers . I have my humble review for our 'OP' class the bloodmage. I have been every class including a bloodmage which I currently am I know some things about each class and how they work.

The BloodMage- From the complainants I read about the bloodmage I realized that they were all luck based. In this review I will tell you how to counter a STR bloodmage and y they are pretty balenced. More balenced than a cyber hunter or a bounty hunter. A classic STR blood mage with 124 hp or more and 50 energy or more and a lot of STR but very little dex,tech, and support. For this review we are going to say our bloodmage that 124 hp 50 energy deals 30 + 34 primary and gun, has 26 defense and 29 resistance and 32 support for a lvl 5 deadly aim. Our skills will be max firebolt and a lvl 4 bludgeon and max bloodlust. Alright lets begin. We bloodmages can not boost or STR nor can we lower our enemies defense or resistance. This is the first reason we are pretty balanced. Now lets say we go first. We will either gun or firebolt. So lets say we fire bolt. The most important part is here for those who complain about a bloodmages "OPness". You HEAL. Then the bloodmage will gun. Then you should either take out their energy if you have LOW dex or u malfuntion or smoke screen. Once you smoke or malf you will deal the same amount of damage as a bloodmage if not more. The reason y a bloodmage is "OP" is not the class but the STATS. If the stats WORKED then you should be able to block their next attack and the next until they use their gun again. Then you heal again since u healed in the first turn and should have the cooldown off of heal by now. As most cyber hunters have over a hundred dex you should have the max of a 40% block and have a good chance of deflection. After a few more turns afterwards the bloodmage should be dead and u should gladly receive your 32 credits.The reason why the class is hated is not because of its skills but because the stats don't work properly.

So what people should complain about is the stats and their functions rather than the class and their skills and not complaining about blocks and how a blood mage hits you even if u have over a hundred dex and then you die. IT IS NOT THE BLOODMAGE THAT IS THE PROBLEM IT IS THE STATS REMEMBER THIS WELL. So from here people should ask to make stats actually work so that 'luck' is not a factor in this game. The idea that the skills is the problem makes the devs nerf the class. But if there is luck the people will complain more and then bloodmages will be utterly useless. So stop the complaining for every class and tell the devs to make the stats work so that there is no more luck.
Post #: 290
6/21/2012 2:56:56   
Remorse
Member

^ Your pretty much proved my point that LUCK is the only chance for an oppoenent agiast these powerful speedy builds.

Just because a build can be BEATIN by luck more often then not lowering that builds win % to an aveage score DOES NOT MAKE THEM BALANCED.


BALANCE IS NOT necesaily when all builds have the same win %.


BALANCE is when LARGE varieties of builds and strategies have posibilities of working (if the player is smart enough) whithout getting destoryed to much be each other.


Defend speedy builds like the STR blood mage all you like, but the fact of the matter is Power builds DESTROY smarts and therefore ruin the game in the eyes of a player looking for a fun chalenge rather then constant pointless and frusterating battles.


ALot of players have forgoten the true spirt of battles which is to chalenge and test each others smarts and startegies NOT to see how fast You can "pwn" non variums noobs and get frustertaed by luck which aparantly isnt fair because it is the only thing that can bring down your pathetic BUILDS!


< Message edited by Remorse -- 6/21/2012 2:59:02 >
Epic  Post #: 291
6/21/2012 3:54:56   
Arcanis
Member

Hiya Rem-rem, wb ^_^
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 292
6/21/2012 4:07:38   
Remorse
Member

Hey arcy, thank you :D

Epic  Post #: 293
6/21/2012 6:22:17   
RazorMcCerea
Member

Cyber Hunters Are Kinda Over Powered
1st : They Can reduce the enemy Energy And they can get energy when ever they want, beside EMP is improved with tech so at level 1 they can take 40 energy
2nd : Plasma Armor And defence matrix? at the same time , so the can have def and res at the same time :/
Epic  Post #: 294
6/21/2012 10:25:33   
friend18
Member

@RazorMcCerea - Cyber Hunters aren't able to get energy whenever they want... Their static is an attack, just like the assimilation skill that tech mages have. Also, if you look at a cyber hunter build, they use plasma armor, leading to lower technology... So no, it doesn't work the way you described it. Plasma armor is completely ignored during rage, which means that cyber hunters take a TON of damage from an energy attack. And def matrix would only lead to tanking and a faster rage for the attacker... So no, it's not that simple. Sure, maybe you're having problems against them, but knowing what to do in every situation is important. So they put up def matrix, hm..., what do you do? Save your energy, attack them with a physical weapon, two attacks later, you're on rage, and you can nail them with an energy attack for massive damage? There are a LOT of options. You could always stall, use health boosters or whatever, until the def matrix wears off.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 295
6/21/2012 10:57:10   
nico0las
Member

@Razor

Agreed with above, Cybers can not receive technology whenever they want. They need to use static with gives between 10-20 energy, with a two turn cooldown. Not only that, it appears to be the skill most frequently blocked.

Cybers have defense matrix and plasma armor. Tactical mercenaries have Mineral armor and Blood shield, a skill that has NO MANA COST (it has health cost, but most TLMs have 100+ health so it doesn't matter) and LASTS FIVE TURNS. Bounty hunters have Blood lust, a skill that on a full varium 34 BH heals between 20-50 health a battle. That's a reasonably high level heal for a passive skill. They ALSO have Energy Shield, but no one uses it. Tech mages have Technician and defense matrix, which isn't bad since most TMs nowadays have an absurd amount of tech. The only class that can't defend itself is blood mage, but seeing as there's only one build that works with that class it doesn't matter.

EMP is a skill unique to the hunters, and quite frankly, a well placed atom smasher is far more useful. It is unblock able, and that's the only issue with it. The issue isn't EMP, it's the fact that CH can drain your mana while you have to HOPE that your atom smasher connects on a class that has on average 100+ dexterity (for the level 34s).

Is CH OP? No, it's just well made. The skills work together. Every class has strong defenses. The difference is CH uses them while all other classes try to go to a full out damage build with little care for their defenses.

< Message edited by nico0las -- 6/21/2012 11:00:29 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 296
6/21/2012 11:17:17   
Calogero
Member

If EMP got removed for another skill or whatnot, CH would be ok... even with their Plasma Armor I'm able to beat them as a BM build
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 297
6/21/2012 12:00:49   
rayniedays56
Member

Im not a CH anymore, but I know how to fight them since I was one since they came out. I have only recently changed due to the issue of PA staying. THAT is making CH less fun to play with. I used many unique builds with CH, including the Tech Abuse 5 focus and the Support Build. However, with Technician gone it has become boring battle after boring battle after boring battle.

So until CH gets a makeover, Imma stay a bounty hunter.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 298
6/21/2012 12:04:39   
friend18
Member

CH is very weak against strength builds. Even with a high dex build, every attack that hits really hurts. The only builds that I lose to are blood mage builds. With a 45% block chance, it's still not reliable enough. Getting hit with a gun upgraded with deadly aim really hurts. And the fact that they can keep on attacking and healing and then raging really hurts. So no, CH's aren't OP.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 299
6/21/2012 16:06:58   
Death Jr
Member

@ above

Just because a class's build loses by one type of build but pwns every other build does not make the class "balanced" or not "OP". The cyber hunter is OP and everyone knows it. A cyber hunter does not need luck to win battles where as almost every other class needs some luck to beat a cyber hunter.
Post #: 300
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