RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X


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8/29/2012 14:02:03

Hun Kingq
Member

Too many nerfs will destroy a class look what happened to Blood Mages when everyone called for nerfs after nerfs so instead of just fireball Plasma Cannon got nerfed as well, now you see less Blood Mages and soon there will be hardly any Blood Mages.

The Nerf to fireball and Plasma Cannon hurt the lower levels more than the higher levels as well as the players with non varium gear so I hope everyone here is proud of that accomplishment.

So now the Blood Mage have multiple weak skills, Plasma Rain, Plasma(BB) Cannon, Fire (spark) Ball, Super(dud) Charge, and last skill that can still get damage Bludgeon.

So now to get further balance Bludgeon needs to be nerfed by 75%.

I don't think the nerf to Plasma Rain, Plasma Cannon and Fireball was enough they need to nerf those skills even more to get the balnce all you nerf trolls want.

A Blood Mage gets malfunction there goes the Plasma Cannon skill it is not only pitiful, sad, but also a joke of a skill now that they nerfed it.

If they see high damage on the 2vs2 battle tracker with any of the Blood Mage skills they need to look at what defense or resistance the player had and that the staff I used gives extra damage on critical attacks.

For all we know all these nerfs to the Blood Mage class was staff telling Players we don't want that class anymore but don't want to delete because it would look odd for ED to have one mage class, two merc classes, and two Hunter classes.

So how many more of you will change from a Blood Mage?

For EMP and Atom smasher they will do nothing about and try to get them to get any ounce of balance they don't want to do or have no desire to do.

Epic	Post #: 651

8/29/2012 14:41:17

Mother1
Member

^ Too many BM were relying on the Str build. Is it far that a level 30 BM can take out just about any build they come across because they have extremely high strength and health with barely anything else? It wasn't balanced. Also the only reason they nerfed PC was because it is one of those moves that have the highest chance to crit, and it stacked with blood lust. If it didn't then it wouldn't have gotten nerfed.

Something had to be done about the people who kept abusing the str build to overpower the masses. Every time I saw a mage character it was a high str blood mage. I would rarely ever see tech mages, and when I would chat with blood mages about their build they told me 'Just about every blood mages uses this build since it is best way to get me up in the LB and gain wins' If that doesn't say that the build was overpowered I don't know what is.

Also don't forget TM had to go with the same nerfs with just about all these moves with the exceptions of fireball and plasma cannon. I hardly ever see TM use plasma rain either thanks to them switching plasma rain improving skill to dex from tech so it didn't just hurt BM.

Oh and a little fyi they nerfed plasma rain because TM were abusing caster builds by spamming tech. They didn't nerf Plasma rain for BM but for TM and they did this so TM couldn't destroy everything with tech.

Also have you tried a dex build BM? I have seen users play with this class, and it is a powerful build that I have seen BM use, and the BM that I fight are using different builds because of the nerf and not the same old str build which is a good thing, and the ones who are using the str build still get a good amount of wins without completely OPing the masses which is a good thing. While I will admit the nerf the PC was unexpected since more of the abusers rarely ever use this, there were those few who did abuse tech to get high damage out of it, and with the new weapon that powers up crits added into the equation, it would be devastating if they got hit with a high power crit, and worse to wear the blood lust would give back a good amount as well, so they nerfed PC.

I used Blood mage maybe once or twice and of all the classes I used this the 2nd least (with Tech merc being the one I used the least) and to tell you the truth even though I used a str focus build for the war, I hated using the class myself. Heck after the war until I gained enough credits to change back to TM I switched to a tech build because I hate the str build that much. Face it hun kingq when something get's abused people are going to complain about it, and getting 2 turn killed by a str blood mage isn't fun it was and still is killing the balance of the game.

Also it is more of EMP then atom smasher that is the issue. They are so high up on the tier tree that BH can get them as early as level 2 and CH have them from the start. Plus they are unblockable and are powered by tech. Where as atom Smasher you can't get to level 10, it is at the bottom of the tier, you need to spend 3 skill points to get it, it doesn't improve with anything, and it blockable. It can't be hard to make the EMP not improve with anything, and move it to the bottom of the skill tiers like the other energy draining moves can it?

Epic	Post #: 652

8/29/2012 15:49:12

Hun Kingq
Member

Mother1, strength was not the problem, the problem was defense (dex) and that with lower support they got critical damage and with lower tech they were able to deflect.

The balance problems are in the dex, tech and support stats other than EMP and Atom Smasher and it goes all the way back to when they introduce Shadow Arts, why they introduce a skill to a class that had no problem blocking already, they could never answer that.

When asked why such a big nerf on Plasma Cannon they grow silent again.

I asked this question now, what skill do the staff want the Blood mage to use since basically every skill have been nerfed except bludgeon and super charge, medium to high tech builds supercharge is weak against. They will not answer that question.

So since Bludgeon and Super Charge have not been nerfed yet maye it is time put those skills on the chopping block and nerf them as well to satisfy the nerf trolls.

Tell if 200 dex is a dex build and I only got 37 damage on a player with low tech with Plasma Rain? With that high dex I still did not block.

As before the balance problems are in dex, tech and support. Nerfing skills with an exception of high energy draining skills was never the solution to balance.

Epic	Post #: 653

8/29/2012 16:37:41

Zeoth
Member

^ that last part is a load of crap and we all know it. Screenie or it didn't happen.

Post #: 654

8/29/2012 17:15:47

Hun Kingq
Member

Zeoth, don't worry the 2vs2 battle tracker got it what you can't believe someone could get dex up too 200 or more?

Epic	Post #: 655

8/29/2012 17:16:17

Calogero
Member

Still a BloodMage and I still don't have any problems surviving ;)

@ Zeo

Screenshots, something this thread seriously Lacks
Everyone can pull out numbers out of thin air

< Message edited by Calogero -- 8/29/2012 17:17:10 >

_____________________________

Having a Signature is too mainstream

AQW

Epic

Post #: 656

8/29/2012 17:18:00

Ranloth
Banned

Yeah.. everyone.

Epic

Post #: 657

8/29/2012 17:36:31

Zeoth
Member

But it seems not everybody can come up with some realistic numbers. I don't even know how much set damage a 200 dex multi even has. And 2v2 balance tracker was made recently.

Post #: 658

8/29/2012 17:50:29

Calogero
Member

a Build is a Build, wether it's a ' Abusive ' Dex build or a 5 Focus build...

Also you claim a lot but ever since I've seen you post in the Balance thread there is 1
Thing you lack to always do... Give us Screenshot proof...

AQW

Epic

Post #: 659

8/29/2012 22:31:56

Steel Slayer
Member

Guys, try to keep in mind, "balance" in the game doesnt mean YOUR build should be able to win against anyone out there, it means every build should have a weakness. Str BM was never all that hard to kill, any class could make a build to take them out at least 50% of the time in 1v1, and in 2v2 their lack of defense made them a JOKE. Now, Fireball is nerfed into garbage, it barely hits harder than strike, for 33 energy. The PC nerf was kinda needed, too much synergy with Blood Lust, 4 damage isnt THAT big of a deal, no problem there.

The ONLY problem with EMP is its too easy to use. Honestly, go make a Merc. Give him a 35 damage weapon and x amount of Strength, lets say 67 since thats fairly common(67 Str=16-20 damage range). Now get a Hunter. Give him the same amount of Tech as you gave the Merc Str. Guess what? The Atom Smasher takes just as much energy as the EMP, only difference is EMP cant be blocked. No joke, try it. EMP doesnt need to be weakened, it needs to be made harder to use. Either increase the energy scaling to 2 points per teir, or just make it deflectable, or even both. Problem solved.

Finally, yes, the nerf to Static Charge was needed, it never made sense the way it was before, but its too weak now. Bring the % up to 40 at max level, that will bring it back up to a useable point, without making it OP again.

Epic	Post #: 660

8/29/2012 23:19:32

Mother1
Member

^ Steel Slayer I can agree with most of what you said, however, with the SC thing most of the whiners won't be happy until they can get the same energy as before no matter what. if it was upped to 40% they would still complain because while it is giving more it would still be ineffective against tanks where as with the old op static they could get a set amount of energy no matter what they hit even if it was only 3 damage. (which was extremely overpowered) also with it being up to 40% that will mean they will gain 3 more energy points for every attack. While this is a little bit more then before I can see the complaints about they didn't buff up static enough.

Also while static is weaker then before it is more balanced, and rabble said it himself that this nerf didn't hurt CH since they are still winning their fights.

As for the EMP thing it needs to go to the bottom tier just like all the other energy draining moves. It makes no sense why TM, Merc, and TLM have to wait to level ten to use these moves (since they are at the bottom of the tiers) as well as spend 3 skill points to get to them, while BH only have to pay one to gain access to it, and CH start with it so they don't have to pay anything. So for every other class other then the hunters you would have to spend 13 points to get to and max out there skills, while BH only needs 10 and CH 9. But on the paying energy thing to use the hunters do have to pay more energy to use their moves then TLM Merc and TM with their skills. My guess is because they are unblockable, but at the same time they don't balanced either.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 8/29/2012 23:21:14 >

Epic	Post #: 661

8/29/2012 23:31:07

ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!

@steel Yes, every build should have a weakness but that weakness should not require you to be useless against just about everything else. Loop mages had some big weaknesses but those weaknesses were covered by the fact that most anti-mage builds were killed by non mages left and right. The problem with BMs was that few builds could counter them effectively, even those designed specifically for them. Tanks just fell to their huge damage and rage. Strength builds failed at outdamaging them. Support, well support works pretty fine still but most people are so determined that support is a failed stat that they end up crippling themselves before they even start with their mentality.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 662

8/30/2012 8:43:07

Calogero
Member

Now that FireBolt got nerfed in a way, I suggest applying that same nerf to Tech Mage's Plasma Bolt ;)

AQW

Epic

Post #: 663

8/30/2012 9:04:43

Ranloth
Banned

Meh, andy, there isn't that much synergy with BL like BMs have it but I see your point in power of Caster TM, especially at low Levels where maxed PB is devastating. So +1 more Tech for damage I pressume?

Epic

Post #: 664

8/30/2012 9:19:23

King FrostLich
Member

Increased mana cost and +2 more tech to gain 1 point of damage will be good.

Epic	Post #: 665

8/30/2012 12:01:54

Smackie El Frog
Member

Not sure if it has ever been mentioned. But what about having EMP have a chance to be deflected? You will always take away energy just there's a chance for it to be not as devastating.

I think it could work well that way since Atom Smasher and Assimilate can both be blocked at least let this one have a chance to be different too

< Message edited by Smackie El Frog -- 8/30/2012 12:02:56 >

_____________________________

AQW

Epic

Post #: 666

8/30/2012 13:20:15

ansh0
Member

CH's already got horribly nerfed, why touch EMP now?

Epic	Post #: 667

8/30/2012 13:22:35

shadesofblue
Member

Balance Tracker needs an improvement, IMO.

AQW	Post #: 668

8/30/2012 13:23:42

Mother1
Member

Ash0 Emp works with not only CH but BH as well. Also Emp is much easier to use to use then the other energy drain skills. I mean is it fair that for BH is in the 2 tier and CH they start with it, while all the other classes who have energy draining skills have theirs in the 4 tier? Also have you ever been hit by EMP builds? trust me when I say this the effects are quite devastating especially if you are a Merc since you have no way of recovering your energy loss.

Shadeofblue why is that? What is wrong with the balance tracker?

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 8/30/2012 13:24:27 >

Epic	Post #: 669

8/30/2012 13:34:45

shadesofblue
Member

Ok, things that are wrong with the Balance Tracker:

1) Players don't get to see the result
2) 2v2 Balance Tracker was only recently implemented; I thought it was there all along
3) We really don't know what it can do and what it can't, so here's what I think it should be able to do (it may already do some of these; or it may not):
3.1) Track who the winner of a battle won against (Level, Class)
3.2) Track Varium Players and Non-Varium players (this will be very hard; probably won't happen/doesn't need to happen/not practical)
3.3) Don't group classes as a whole; group them by level (so when the Dev's see the result, they see how each class is doing at each level)
3.4) Track how long (how much time) it takes for each class to get a win on average (so when the class wins, how long on average it takes them to do so; this would tell the Dev's who's getting a bunch of fast wins, and who's getting a high % but taking 5 minutes to get each 1v1 win.)

Just some things that come to mind.

AQW	Post #: 670

8/30/2012 17:47:03

veneeria
Member

I got best solution of all!

spoiler:

I would switch all pasives and static charge for a new skill!

blood lust users would have HUG:
passive shields users would now have HUG;
reroute/static charge users would have HUG too;
shadow arts would have hug arts instead that increases their hugging ability by, lets say... over 9000% Divided by 0% of caring persentage
deadly aim for hugging aim, which makes hugs more accurate by the % of hugs given.

The hug skill works like this:
deals 0% of your total damage in bazooka in the start
improves -1% each level and scales per 3 support.
has got an 200% chance of ignoring defenses and of casting group hug spreading joy and love across delta V.

the animation is a warmful and cute hug with the target player and lots of rainbows and pink hearts on the air.

Now honestly, like i said many times before, add downsides to your so called "op" skills or passives. What are downsides? Kind of segundary effects. I got an idea how to reduce str builds also, without causing the str to be an useless stat, if you guys want to know about it.

Please use a maximum of font size 3. -- SMGS

< Message edited by SMGS -- 8/30/2012 17:48:53 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 671

8/30/2012 23:09:26

shadesofblue
Member

All the TLM's I'm facing are Heal Looping and using an Atom Smash TANK build. This is getting stupid :P Level 30 Varium TLM's are beating me

quote:

That's odd. My data actually indicates that CH is doing perfectly well right now in 1v1s and are doing *very* well in 2v2s.

I'm sorry I have to doubt numbers, but I highly doubt CH's are very good in 2v2 right now. My 2v2 ratio right now is 35% wins. Am I supposed to use a specialized 2v2 build? The only 2v2 CH build I can really think of off the top of my head is DEX CH, but that doesn't work well anymore since Multi and Static got nerfed. Anyone know a build type I should try? IMO, I think STR CH is the best 2v2 CH build right now.

< Message edited by shadesofblue -- 8/30/2012 23:30:23 >

AQW	Post #: 672

8/31/2012 1:18:02

Mother1
Member

Shadeofblue, a good Emp off the back can take care of that since most TLM don't even bother to invest energy into their build like most CH used to do before the nerf. But at the same time I felt the Same way when I was losing to level 30 Str BM who had 120+ strength.

But on another note ShadeofBlue Most of the CH I have been fighting (with and against) are doing well like Rabble's data says. However what you came across with TLM sounds like an anti Cyber hunter build that seems to now be abusing CH since Static got nerfed. However even if Static didn't get nerfed these TLM would doing the same thing and my advice would be to keep energy boosters on your person and if you have the energy use a well timed EMP. Even with Roroute if the users are tanks as you say they will take little damage and if you emp correctly they won't be able to heal.

Shadeofblue lastly on the TLM thing you can't win them all it isn't suppose to be that way. that was the kind of thing that lead certains classes to the nerfing table. While it may suck that you are losing to TLM's remember this class is suppose to be a tank class. Also with the recent nerf to Static they are more are using Atom smasher to take advantage of this. But even if static wasn't nerfed they would mostly likely still do this to you, since even with the old 15-16 or whatever number you would get back with static if you were one of those CH who used default energy you would be screwed (since before the nerf and still after the nerf I still see users not even adding points or using as little as possible) Since Atom smasher would take take what you would get back and more.

Edit ShadeofBlue when did they nerf the hunter's multi?

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 8/31/2012 1:19:35 >

Epic	Post #: 673

8/31/2012 2:59:52

Blaze The Aion Ender
Member

I was thinking
"Why is Merc bad at high levels?"
I thought, only way to gain health is healing, which is fair enough
Then I thought, they're the only class with NO way to regain energy what so ever
Not boosters, that's a side perk, which doesn't come with the class
How about adding a new skill to get energy to replace adrenaline
I'm not going to say any ideas what the skill would be, because I could not think of one that would be original and not overpowered
Mana Regains of all classes:
Blood Mage: Reflex Boost - A bad energy regain, but it does regain energy, plus it has the primary function of adding a dexterity boost
Bounty Hunter: Reflex Boost - See above
Tactical Mercenary: Reroute - Effective way to regain energy, regained by being attacked in battle. Only function is energy regain
Tech Mage: Reroute - See above, Assimilate - Strike your enemy while stealing their energy, and adding it to your energy pool
Cyber Hunter: Static Charge - Now less powerful, but still better than Mercenary's energy regain, regains energy on their turn, y dealing damage. Less effective than before, yet still a way to regain energy
Mercenary: No Way To Regain Energy - NaN

EDIT: After looking at this list, Static Charge is the only energy regain that is not on another class
: I'm not counting Assimilate because firstly, it's staff only, the other ones aren't, and secondly, it's main focus is to remove energy . from the opponent

EDIT2: Here's another idea for Mercenary that i just remembered (which has the same idea for field commander): Malfunction and Smoke have a large advantage on Blood Shield and Field Commander, because they both make you stronger, and you opponents slightly weaker and on top of that, it hits them with the power of a strike, which sometimes can be the difference between win and lose.
At very least, make blood commander run up, steal your opponents blood, then power up using that, since it is BLOOD commander. Not sure what the animation would be for Tac Merc, but something along those lines.
Alright... I think that's all the EDIT's I'll need...

Anyone have a not overpowered idea for a Mercenary to regain energy
Or even a better, more effective passive than Adrenaline would be a good idea

Let's be constructive here, if you disagree with me, please say why, and what would be a better idea

Thanks

< Message edited by Blaze The Aion Ender -- 8/31/2012 3:28:21 >

_____________________________

AQW

Epic

Post #: 674

8/31/2012 7:07:48

justinkwan
Member

After several battles with the blood mage.I realised that their rage comes in very fast. Every 3 to 4 rounds even though their support kevel is only 30.That make them almost impossible to beat. I am sure most epic duel players will agree.i hope someone could look into this.Otherwise i makes everyone switch to blood mage. Once that is done it is too late to make any changes because it will affect everyone and epic duel becomes blood mage duel.

Post #: 675

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