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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X

 
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8/6/2012 21:30:22   
kittycat
Member

I personally think that Plasma Cannon is fine the way it is, it's Strength build that is making the turn. Possible solutions would be that we can give Fireball a slower stat progression.
AQ MQ  Post #: 51
8/6/2012 21:41:57   
shadesofblue
Member

quote:

Because everyone is annoyed that they can't use their skills.

But all the skills that are worth EMP'ing are skills that deal a large amount of damage..........

_____________________________

If you have an object and I have an object and we switch objects, we both still have one object. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we switch ideas, we now both have two ideas.
AQW  Post #: 52
8/6/2012 21:47:49   
Blaze The Aion Ender
Member

Yeah, and emp is okay with BH
But on a class that can use it, then get all their energy back, and use it again, it becomes overpowered
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 53
8/6/2012 21:52:34   
RageSoul
Member

Pretty sure EMP is the reason why nobody asked for PA as a buff for CH .
AQW Epic  Post #: 54
8/6/2012 22:56:49   
shadesofblue
Member

@Blaze
People rarely use EMP twice a battle, and over 50% of BH's don't use it because most BH's are STR and they don't want to waste an attack. I agree that Cybers are one of the better classes, since we have an Armor, a Debuff, a Energy Draining Skill, A Energy Regaining Skill, and the best Ultimate Skill. But I don't believe that Cybers have a significant win % advantage over other classes, as I as a part varium level 35 CH have a hard time with many other non-varium level 35's from the other classes, even if I EMP them to prevent them from using thier best move. The Cyber Hunter Skill tree is increased by many different stats, so we cannot abuse one stat like blood mages can. I understand your view on this and agree that EMP is a very powerful skill that can be devastating if used right, but I simply do not see a reason to nerf us when we are no stronger than the rest of the classes. Have a good day now :)
AQW  Post #: 55
8/7/2012 0:57:31   
Blaze The Aion Ender
Member

I'm just saying there is hardly a downside, you miss a turn, but you don't lose any energy that you couldnt gain back
I don't struggle with CH too hard, because they spend all their turns against me using defense, they are capable of having high defense and high str at the same time with a str-tank hybrid

I'm not saying their impossible, but they are slightly above most classes currently in terms of overall power
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 56
8/7/2012 0:59:48   
helloguy
Member

If anything their slightly underpowered they don't stand a chance against me BMW are another thing
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 57
8/7/2012 1:51:40   
doomturtle
Member

I don't think cyber needs a nerf. Blood mages only need a slight nerf. It is fairly easy to beat both classes. You just need to make more creative builds instead of spamming strength to beat them.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 58
8/7/2012 3:21:06   
GoldenNeo
Member

No class needs nerf. All ED's gotta do is put a debuff skill on us Tactical Merc's. Either Smoke Screen or Malfunction. Just not Intimidate.
AQW Epic  Post #: 59
8/7/2012 3:36:37   
Nexus...
Member

I have seen a lot of "new class" suggestions recently, which is fine, but also upsets me. One of the reasons why balance is in shambles are the newer of the 6 classes, along with various other changes that have been made over the last couple of years, such as agility. While more classes are nice and allow for new builds, they don't address the heart of the problem, which is the ability to customize a skill tree in the way you like, and in doing so open up many valid build options. This is why when we see an "OP Class" that needs nerfing, our immediate reaction is to address that class by the build that makes it OP. Strength Blood Mage for example, or Support Mercenary to name another. New classes will not solve the balance issues we already have, because they provide no more variety then the rest of the classes, and increase the chances of their niche being exploited.

Today I thought I would address one of the many balance changes we could make, that would allow for a multitude of valid builds, and a variety of ways and approaches to counter builds that currently favor their user. This change would effect all 6 of the existing skill trees, condensing them into 3, while adding a couple skills to fill in the gaps where needed.

I have done a preliminary mock up of what the Mage Skill Tree would look like with this new "combined" version, to give you a slight idea of what this would look like. There are some larger changes, and some more subtle ones as well, and I will do my best to address all of these in the section below.


Overall Changes:

The first major change is that we will return to our 3 original classes. As you can see in the picture above, all of the skills from both the existing Tech Mage and Blood Mage classes have been merged into one tree. The other 2 classes (Mercenaries and Hunters) will similarly be altered, with skills from both their basic and evolved class, and new skills to fill in unexplored areas. As you can see, a class like Mage has most of its skills concentrated into burst damage (physical and energy attacks), with a strong support supplementation. Hunters on the other hand, will now be a tactical oriented class, having concentrated amounts of skills that can enhance their potential damage and defense, and passives which can compliment a variety of builds. Finally Mercenaries will remain very defense oriented, with a wide selection of passives to choose from and a supplementing damage output.

From the preliminary skill tree, you can see that I have added two new skills on the "Physical" third of the tree in tierd 2. Both of these will act virtually the same as their energy counterparts, but will have different requirements, will increase with different stats, and will obviously provide physical damage instead of energy.

Passives will be limited to one primary passive, and one secondary passive. Hunters, for example, will have to choose between Bloodlust and Plasma armor, and then can also pick up Shadow Arts as a supplement if they so desire. However, it should be noted that at no one time may they have points in both Plasma Armor and Bloodlust. Mage is similar, with a selection of either Bloodlust or Reroute, and Deadly Aim as a supplementing passive. Mercenaries on the other hand, may choose between Reroute, Mineral Armor, or Hybrid Armor and supplement with Adrenaline. All 3 of the classes will have other changes to their skill tress, similar to the addition of a Physical Multi and stun on mage, but I haven't yet considered what they should be.

Ultimates will also see a change. There are not 2 instances of Supercharge as the above picture would imply, but instead a new physical ultimate to accompany the two new physical skills on Mage. The Energy side of the Hunter tree would receive a similar change, gaining an energy specific ultimate, while Mercenary would also get a second option for their ultimate.

Stuns, Multi's and Ultimates will also be regulated in a different manner. No one player will be able to use 2 of each, and will have to choose between having a physical stun, or an energy stun (this applies to having a physical multi or and energy multi, and a physical ultimate and an energy ultimate). However, while tiers 2 and 4 will be regulated in this manner, tiers 1 and 3 will remain accessible as long as all other requirements are met.

To recap:

-Merged skill trees
-1 Main passive, 1 Secondary Passive
-New Skills to fill in the gaps
-A second ultimate option for all 3 class ultimates
-Only 1 Stun, 1 Multi, and 1 Ultimate will be allowed per build.


Food for thought:

-Consider lowering MAX skill level to 7 No longer needed, keep it at 10
-At level 1 you gain Field Medic and as well as a tier 1 skill of your choice
-5 skill points must be deposited in tier 2 in order to gain access to tier 3 *Note tiers include all 3 skill trees
-3 skill points must be deposited in tier 3 to gain access to tier 4
-Level requirements remain the same for all skills
-For every 5 points in each skill category you gain +1 to Defense (Phys), +1 Resistance (Resistance), or +1 Support (Mage) depending on what catagory you deposit your 5 points in (*Note these 3 stats vary depending on your class)
-Possible locking of certain skills which can be purchased using either Credits OR Varium (remember, your getting extra skills in the first place)
-If each skill category contains 10+ points, all negative effects of agility (-1,-2 etc.) are negated - (rewards balanced builds without being destructive towards the builds themselves)


What does this do?

Allows for a multitude of new builds that will expand variety, and provide valid options to counter builds that are currently "overpowered." Also expands on the versatility of each class, allowing for class specific roles as the developers release new game modes. For example, Mages would have access to many valid support/defense skill oriented builds (support gains a new definition), or they could decide to tech to a more offensive energy based build. The skill combinations are almost limitless and builds would see many more subdivisions that would reduce the probability of certain skill combinations being overpowering an entire class.



Thanks for reading, I hope you like my idea. Feel free to leave any feedback you deem relevant.


Prophet

< Message edited by Nexus... -- 8/7/2012 18:48:53 >
Epic  Post #: 60
8/7/2012 3:37:25   
Rayman
Banned


^^

2 classes need nerf and tlm wont get smoke or malf.

Below: This post^wasnt for you, it was for Golden Neo lol.

< Message edited by Rayman -- 8/7/2012 4:14:55 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 61
8/7/2012 4:00:40   
Nexus...
Member

They have have 4 passives to choose from (1 more than the other 2 classes), and intimidate for a debuff...therefore it all evens out.


EDIT:

Sorry, thought it was for me because of the ^ at the beginning of the post. Carry on!




Prophet

< Message edited by Nexus... -- 8/7/2012 4:25:01 >
Epic  Post #: 62
8/7/2012 4:23:03   
Alex24
Member

This is one of the long debated along with str BM nerf.

I DO think that TLM need a buff, they're the only class without a debuff skill. The reason they were OP when introduced was mainly because of support increasing Field Medic (which isn't the case anymore) and tank build (which now are countered by SS/malf or str builds more efficiently).

The only reliable TLM build (in my opinion) is the Toxic Grenade build, which since the last update has slightly been nerfed even further.

This is just a personal opinion ... TLM need a buff.
Epic  Post #: 63
8/7/2012 4:57:29   
Mr. Black OP
Member

If TLM want a debuff how about we make a new one?
Smoke Grenade- Improves with dexterity, requires support and a club, initial attack is unblockable so is also a bit weaker than smoke screen in terms of how much dexterity it takes away.
Or maybe something similar.

Or something a bit weaker:
Black Out- Improves with technology, lowers supports, requires strength.
Epic  Post #: 64
8/7/2012 5:07:27   
Ranloth
Banned


Why make new one? TLMs cannot have it, end of. TLMs aren't weak either, it's a Tank class not glass cannon yet people say it needs a buff: have you tried Support/Tech abuse with it? Works better than Mercs due to Reroute and Mineral Armor since you'll abuse Tech.

Passive EP/HP Regen, Debuff, Passive Armor - these are things each class can have, TLMs have 2 so it's fair. They are only class without debuff? Well how about you give up Reroute which was intention of 'Shari at the time instead of Smoke? She thought it'd be too much with Reroute..
CHs have 2 as well, if you say SC makes them have all 3 then.. SC isn't a passive and you have Frenzy for HP so it's fair.

Do people have no knowledge about Balance and try to act smart here? It's true, fact you want a major buff doesn't mean that you will get it. Did you think how it'll affect other classes? I see Nexus, still trying to get hang of the idea, but I can see already it's well thought (and presented), and actually does have a point to it since it can change a lot from what he can see and I can somewhat. Whilst I'm exactly not too keen on whole idea, the concept is interesting if you can mix'n'match tiers (just 2, not all 3); I mean Energy and Physical give superb damage but you're played for suckers with defence so think wisely or go for Support and Energy/Physical and get some defence and good damage. I wouldn't like classes to end up in such a way, but it'd be fun as an alternative for us at cost of Credits to switch between the tiers as we wish - nothing as high as 50K, I'm looking at fee that can be maybe even 1K Credits to cover the change + retrain or such since skill-trees are alike but not the same. Nexus at least knows how to post, idea is interesting so far and I would like to see more skill trees for other classes as well as more information.
AQ Epic  Post #: 65
8/7/2012 5:12:39   
Nexus...
Member

Agree with Trans. TLM is one of the balanced classes in the game right now. Take away CH and BM bashing everyones face in and you have 4 classes that are all relatively equal in power.


Prophet
Epic  Post #: 66
8/7/2012 5:19:11   
Ranloth
Banned


I'll just requote this:
quote:

Guys, I see some complains - not just here - that TLM are slow in killing but did any of you bother looking at their skills? BHs and BMs have BL and what does BL do? Gives you HP back so you can have defences at a minimum and make it up in damage back + HP. Tank builds don't work as good for them. Now TMs and TLMs, both have Reroute so high HP build is best with it but that also means Tank build! Both classes are more defensive-oriented since TMs have little use of Str or not as good at least, and TLMs don't have that good either + have passive Armor. This hints it's a defensive class not made for purely quick kill like BMs and BHs, I mean just look at their skills - they improve by Dex, Tech, Support and there's none that gives you improvement like Fireball by Strength. Now Mercenary and CH; Mercenary has passive Armor but completely no EP/HP regen and Intimidate as a debuff so it's still bit of a Tank class but skills also focus on Strength so HA makes up for BL (not literally) and skills allow you to catch up. And CHs are more Strength oriented since there are few skills affected by it or require it and they have absolutely no HP regen so they hope to make it up by getting some Energy back, but they can also loop perfectly which is actually wrong; each class is supposed to have a weak side to it.

Buff to Stun Grenade can be done for TLMs and BHs overall, that'll always help TLMs but it's fine really otherwise.

Nexus, what motivated you to make max skill points just 7? Let's say we can have alternative like I said, so switching between tiers (although Physical wouldn't be fair since people paid Varium so perhaps when you switch to BM, you can use all tiers?), I will be at disadvantage of 3 points, no? Or is that covered by more skills to choose from, instead of 9, you get 11, right?
quote:

-5 skill points must be deposited in tier 2 in order to gain access to tier 3 *Note tiers include all 3 skill trees
-3 skill points must be deposited in tier 3 to gain access to tier 4

^ That! Nice way to prevent abuse early on but also overall, quite interesting and it could be done in current ED too if there's a way with classes. :D
AQ Epic  Post #: 67
8/7/2012 5:29:27   
Alex24
Member

Abuse tech on TLM? To what use? a lot of res ok I get that, tank build to go with Mineral Armor. But any other use for tech on a TLM? Surgical strike maybe but that doesn't sound like a good alternative, mercs at least have another use for tech, Bunker Buster.
However you put it atm TLM compared not to BM and CH but to the other 3 original classes still slightly UP, at least from my point of view and apparently not only so flame all you want..
Epic  Post #: 68
8/7/2012 5:32:25   
Nexus...
Member

quote:

what motivated you to make max skill points just 7?


As I already explained, the MAX 7 was an "on the fly idea" seeing as we have more skills (Reflex, Fireball, Energy Shield, Plasma Cannon) it MIGHT be better to have a couple more stat points. That said, I may just cut that idea all-together as it doesn't really improve on the idea, but rather causes confusion.

Thanks for the feedback,


@above

Nobody was flaming you, we just have a different opinion than you.


Prophet

< Message edited by Nexus... -- 8/7/2012 5:34:11 >
Epic  Post #: 69
8/7/2012 5:34:08   
Ranloth
Banned


How is TLM UPed? It's a tank class, BH and BL are glass cannons thanks to DA and Smoke + BL so they drop defence for damage and make up in HP for it. TLMs have Reroute (high HP build) and passive Armor (Tank passive) so TLM is obviously a tank class.
You're underestimating Tech TLMs. Bad alternative? You get a lot of deflections, Blood Shield that's worth using, tank defences overall, high Heal + Reroute is godly, and steal Rage, some HP and do high damage with SS. Mercs have Bunker but no EP regen.
AQ Epic  Post #: 70
8/7/2012 9:24:06   
Stabilis
Member

@Nexus,

1 question: how would this supposed structure work in terms of class changes? From what I read and the image I viewed, do we use class change to upgrade our skill tree to house more skills (from the evolutionary class)? Also (2 questions apparently), does class changing to a previously purchased class cost or will it not cost?
AQ Epic  Post #: 71
8/7/2012 11:25:16   
ScarletReaper
Member

@nexus it's a cool idea. However I think you should make it so you could use either energy or physical, but not both. So you could use energy support, or physical support.

_____________________________

DF AQW Epic  Post #: 72
8/7/2012 13:15:50   
od
Member

quote:

I don't think cyber needs a nerf. Blood mages only need a slight nerf. It is fairly easy to beat both classes. You just need to make more creative builds instead of spamming strength to beat them.

I disagree. Spamming str in my opinion is the best way of beating cyber hunters, at least for BM's. It is impossible to out tank them because of emp, Static charge and PA.
Epic  Post #: 73
8/7/2012 13:18:01   
Mr. Black OP
Member

quote:

How is TLM UPed? It's a tank class, BH and BL are glass cannons thanks to DA and Smoke + BL so they drop defence for damage and make up in HP for it. TLMs have Reroute (high HP build) and passive Armor (Tank passive) so TLM is obviously a tank class.You're underestimating Tech TLMs. Bad alternative? You get a lot of deflections, Blood Shield that's worth using, tank defences overall, high Heal + Reroute is godly, and steal Rage, some HP and do high damage with SS. Mercs have Bunker but no EP regen.

All classes should have a usable glass cannon build, tank build, or balanced build (a bit of both), if they don't you will only see one build from every class (how is that fun?) people will complain because one class would be advantageous over another (rock, paper, scissor format) complain until the other class gets nerfed then it repeats itself making balance impossible. That's how I see it. Unless you have something from the devs that specifically states that: BM and BH are supposed to do tons of damage quickly and TLM are supposed to kill slowly but take little damage,

@nexus
For your idea I noticed TM has 2 stuns and 2 multis, will they be replaced with something else or will they be given the advantage of being able to multi/stun again with no cool down?
Also it seems a bit OP how they get BL+malf+casting skills, seems a bit like BM except with a debuff. It could work but it requires a bit further planning since they have all they need to spam tech at tier 1 unless they want malf.

< Message edited by Mr. Black OP -- 8/7/2012 13:23:33 >
Epic  Post #: 74
8/7/2012 13:20:27   
King Helios
Member

Random: Why does Blood Mage have Plasma Rain on Tier 2? Every other class has Multis on Tier 3.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 75
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