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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X

 
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8/10/2012 5:24:23   
Ranloth
Banned


Oh you lose versus these builds with Support? That's news to me. I took CHs on with Tank build and that much HP and won thanks to Crits from Support, and BMs too since my TM has Matrix and I managed to kill him due to Malf + Aux which easily took 1/2 HP and Gun with DA further helps it but whatever you say.
Diminishing? 3 Support? That's still a joke to make it that low. You realise Auxes will need major rebalancing in terms of their damage and possibly stats? Simple change you want will require a lot of work to be done just to let it happen and it may be bad since it's slight overkill; Malf + Aux takes 1/2 of BM's HP (almost) and I'm looking at taking it all even so I need Malf + Aux + Energy Gun/Lvl 1 Bolt since it'd be enough.

No.. <_<

@King
1) Why should it? Will you give them passive EP or HP regen in its place? It follows the rules of having: passive Armor, debuff or HP/EP regen (2 of them). It has EP regen but it's not passive and if you wanna argue with that - TLMs have HP regen too.
2) It's fine now. Them getting more power isn't needed now.
3) No.. You're getting rid of Str builds, leaving them with nothing and totally killing the point of the Class. It's Strength-focused and you're making it into Physical version of TM which is aimed to be a defensive class. Support requirement is enough - 42 at max will make them lose at least 12 stats (if they have 30 Support for DA) if not more which is already 3 less damage on Fireball and 2-3 on Primary + Gun. Give diminishing on Str again at about 70-80+ to progress slower and they'll be weaker, or rather all Strength builds.
4) No. It has twice the power of SC thus giving much more HP back. Cooldown is fine in this case. Both are blockable so tough.
5) No? You know your "base of 20 health points at level 1" and increases with Level is already there? But your number is too high and Level scalling doesn't need altering. 4 Support for 1 HP? It was that way last time and it was taken out due to abuse. Rabble is already working on bringing scalling back so it won't be abused either; definitely not 4 Support, more like 6-8 instead.
6) Smoke is Tier 1, Malf is Tier 3. This justifies their power + 1 EP less for Smoke. Also Dex > Tech since Blocking > Deflections so that's why Tech progresses quicker since it cannot block all damage but reduce it in 1/2 in some cases.
AQ Epic  Post #: 126
8/10/2012 5:28:59   
khalidon5000
Member

Woops, sorry 2 round battles if it makes that much of a difference to you.
No build has a 100% win rate against everything and of course there will be times where you will lose, however the change to support you propose is still far too drastic.
I believe that Field Medic should scale slowly with support or support is given a new ability, I don't think changing the scaling of support that drastically would help, but instead cause more problems like support abuse.

Also could you please elaborate on the increase in cooldown according to your support?

< Message edited by khalidon5000 -- 8/10/2012 5:29:24 >
Epic  Post #: 127
8/10/2012 6:24:42   
rayniedays56
Member

Balance changes that would be nice to see:


Field Medic increase with support (of course, we are all talking about it)

SOME thing to be done about all the Str BM's

Remove Cybers PA and replace with something awesome but not OP (idk...a lesser passive that nulls a percent of all damage?)



And others.


Those are my opinions. Remember to value everyones opinions, and please, do not flame.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 128
8/10/2012 6:42:07   
Shock Value
Member

Field medic needs to increase with support again. Support is the most 'useless' stat currently: other than giving a strong aux attack (which takes 3 turns to cool down) and a POSSIBLE starting turn, it doesn't do much else.
Epic  Post #: 129
8/10/2012 8:31:14   
midnight assassin
Member

^I fear that it might make cyber hunters and tactical mercs regain their title as the most op class.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 130
8/10/2012 10:38:03   
King FrostLich
Member

quote:

1) Why should it? Will you give them passive EP or HP regen in its place? It follows the rules of having: passive Armor, debuff or HP/EP regen (2 of them). It has EP regen but it's not passive and if you wanna argue with that - TLMs have HP regen too.


Removing Plasma Armor would be the best option even if the devs confirmed as "nope, we won't". The problem is that if any nerf besides any of these 2 skills were to take place(let's say nerf DM or replacing massacre with something else) it would make people think CH as a not so strong class at all but forget this sentence. If Plasma Armor does get removed, technician is the best replacement. If malfunction does, then diamond blades OR A STUN GRENADE a new skill should replace it. TLM's also need mana and rely on their health to regain mana. If frenzy gets blocked, well there goes a turn and mana.

quote:

2) It's fine now. Them getting more power isn't needed now.


Forgot to mention that this would only apply if malfunction gets replaced.

quote:

3) No.. You're getting rid of Str builds, leaving them with nothing and totally killing the point of the Class. It's Strength-focused and you're making it into Physical version of TM which is aimed to be a defensive class. Support requirement is enough - 42 at max will make them lose at least 12 stats (if they have 30 Support for DA) if not more which is already 3 less damage on Fireball and 2-3 on Primary + Gun. Give diminishing on Str again at about 70-80+ to progress slower and they'll be weaker, or rather all Strength builds.


Strength has been the biggest balance issue in the game with agility as the second. Blood Mage may be a power type class but it doesn't mean it should be very strong with that unblockable skill despite the cost of a huge amount of mana when maxed including a gun. Though I may be in favor of another strength diminish in stat, this will only weaken players who do normal strikes in my opinion because if you've memorized the new formula for calculating the % of increased damage skills, strength doesn't really matter, it's actually the weapon damage that powers the skill and the % it increases. A player with 67 strength (16 - 20 strength damage) could care less anyway about it since it's still strong to hit other people.

quote:

4) No. It has twice the power of SC thus giving much more HP back. Cooldown is fine in this case. Both are blockable so tough.


It's only if either of them will be chosen. I don't want a lower cooldown and more % of health regained at the same time, just the separate. Plus, mana coming from a CH is different compared to a TM if you know what I mean.

quote:

5) No? You know your "base of 20 health points at level 1" and increases with Level is already there? But your number is too high and Level scalling doesn't need altering. 4 Support for 1 HP? It was that way last time and it was taken out due to abuse. Rabble is already working on bringing scalling back so it won't be abused either; definitely not 4 Support, more like 6-8 instead.


Uhmm, at level 1 you start off with field medic that heals 10 health points and players hit you like 8 - 10 damage. At that rate, most low levels will come to conclude that field medic is a useless skill at that time. Plus, when I meant scaling it already includes skill diminishing which means the higher your stat goes, the skill will also scale at a slower rate to prevent it from being too overpowered.


quote:

6) Smoke is Tier 1, Malf is Tier 3. This justifies their power + 1 EP less for Smoke. Also Dex > Tech since Blocking > Deflections so that's why Tech progresses quicker since it cannot block all damage but reduce it in 1/2 in some cases.


This may be true but come to think of it, most TM's and CH's try to invest alot of skill points compared to Bounty hunters because TM's have reroute, CH's have static charge and BH's don't have any EP regaining skill(reflex boost won't make up for it) thus they need a large amount of mana to spam it compared to TM and CH. The time when TLM's had smokescreen they were able to put alot of skill points on it because of reroute and hybrid armor(yes it's hybrid before mineral came out for those who don't know) which allowed a nearly endless loop of smokescreen or double strike and maul at that time.
Epic  Post #: 131
8/10/2012 11:16:24   
Stabilis
Member

Strike can be used each turn. Support could receive the Sidearm from Strength and still not have a weapon to use each turn (2 and 3 turn cooldowns). Strike is self sufficient. Please give Support the Sidearm.

(there is also no longer a need for the 5 point handicap on Auxiliary damage)

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 8/10/2012 11:18:09 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 132
8/10/2012 12:06:58   
shadesofblue
Member

^Or we could make primary damage it's own stat and have STR only affect gun damage.........
AQW  Post #: 133
8/10/2012 22:08:05   
sky222
Member

@Trans
I'm talking about a build like this atm kk?
18+10 STR
19+10 DEX
23+10 TEC
110+60 SUP
94 HP (so you don't get one shotted)
48 EP
Was your support build really like that?
@khalidon
remember HLTM? Was there a counter? NO!
STR TLM? No counter
STR BH using the OP build Xen made up when shadow arts was just added? No counter
Build above? YES COUNTER!
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 134
8/10/2012 23:09:01   
Mr. Black OP
Member

^
Xen made Heal Loop TM, Strength BH was more like common sense for most of us.
Epic  Post #: 135
8/11/2012 6:28:16   
rayniedays56
Member

Hmm...


Is 21-26+35 damage too much for a level 35 :D
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 136
8/11/2012 6:49:17   
  Digital X

Beep Beep! ArchKnight AQ / ED


Is that primary damage? if so no :) My BH has 23-28 at level 33( i think is the number)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 137
8/11/2012 6:50:36   
rayniedays56
Member

Yes it's primary. I guess I have never had over 13-16 damage so...it looks OP to me...
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 138
8/11/2012 6:54:00   
  Digital X

Beep Beep! ArchKnight AQ / ED


When i used my dex ch, he had 13-16 damage for a long time, if i do a str build (now a caster tm so it won't happen for a while) i stayed around the 18/19 mark, so i could put more of defences, even the 17 primary damage is still good. Sorry, can't remember the other last numbers for the primary damage :P
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 139
8/11/2012 6:56:53   
rayniedays56
Member

Yeah. I have always been either a dex, tech, or support abuse CH.


25-30 aux

OR

35-42 defense

OR

32-39 resistance


How I roll ;)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 140
8/11/2012 9:22:46   
King Helios
Member

My new Tech build has 77-83 Surgical Damage at Level 8. Scary lol.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 141
8/11/2012 9:27:04   
rayniedays56
Member

@ Above


Malfunction, EMP, Static Charge, Heal, Strike, Static Charge, Massacre, Rage :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 142
8/11/2012 11:40:11   
od
Member

quote:

Balance changes that would be nice to see:


Field Medic increase with support (of course, we are all talking about it)

SOME thing to be done about all the Str BM's

Remove Cybers PA and replace with something awesome but not OP (idk...a lesser passive that nulls a percent of all damage?)



And others.


Those are my opinions. Remember to value everyones opinions, and please, do not flame.


I agree ( coming from a str BM) if field medic improved with support, in my opinion you wouldn't have to nerf str BM. Since most builds would be durable to outlast. That being said, they should nerf the ratio on it ( every 3.5 or 4 instead of every 3)
to make it a lot harder for support TLM, TM and CH from healooping
Epic  Post #: 143
8/11/2012 12:06:56   
shadesofblue
Member

^It's really hard to heal loop against STR BM's.
AQW  Post #: 144
8/11/2012 16:55:57   
Drianx
Member

Infernal Android's special is unblockable and uber powerful several turns into the fight.

Nice job as usual, balance team. You have 'Smoked' and then 'Stunned' me once again.

GG.

< Message edited by Drianx -- 8/11/2012 16:56:15 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 145
8/12/2012 6:08:32   
Nub Apocalypse
Member

Infernal Android isn't as powerful as people are saying. I've been hearing things like it does 70 at round 5 with rage, I personally tried this myself with 5 focus, and it only did 55 (with rage) against someone with only 30 res. The only thing I reckon needs changing is for it to be blockable.
Post #: 146
8/12/2012 6:14:20   
Jekyll
Member

Two things to do to the bot:

1) Deflectable (a small chance to cushion its mighty impact; blockable will be too great a change)
2) Usable once/twice per battle (not that fights last that long)
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 147
8/12/2012 6:55:09   
DestruRaGe
Member

Infernal android needed changes:

Set cap to max damage of special. Give it a small chance to be blocked.
It will be kinda like gamma bot then but still you will have to wait some turns till specials dmg reach the cap like you devs wanted.
Problem solved, everyones happy.

DON'T make it usable only once or twice per battle! You will kill 5 focus builds! 5 focus relies strongly on bot! We need phys and energy att!
Non-var players finally got a chance to play with 5 focus builds so pls dont take that away!
The only problem here are ppl abusing its too strong special! Weaker special and its gonna be fine!

< Message edited by DestruRaGe -- 8/12/2012 7:21:40 >
Epic  Post #: 148
8/12/2012 8:45:31   
RageSoul
Member

Fought a LVL 35 Full-Var 5 Focus CH earlier . Has 84 TECH . I have 29 - 35 RES . He uses Infernal Android + Rage . Dealt 50+ Damage . OFC i'm gonna lose , but i'm not involving CH for the 'bot's power .

CHANGES : Instead of per turn , how about +2 Damage per 2-3 turns instead? And oh , BTW , adding Deflects and Blocks won't really solve anything on it as they're both luck-based effects .

Well , i won't be online for , like , up to 2-3 days , but if i have time , i might join in the other discussions . GL to all!

P.S : Congrats , Exiles for winning . You guys really proved that nice guys finish first .
AQW Epic  Post #: 149
8/12/2012 8:58:51   
theholyfighter
Member

Infernal Android sure needs changes, deflect sounds good but block?!....nah
I don't see adding a damage cap to it because it will be like gamma bot then.
AQW Epic  Post #: 150
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