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War Kills (Revamped)

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8/21/2012 16:48:02   
King Helios
Member

quote:


May 31, 2012 (From Rabblefroth):

UPDATE: After some discussion, we decided the best course of action with Faction Cannons is to temporarily remove them once these changes go live. With the new changes we do not want to present a pay to win mechanic and have not come up with a method that is fun and that we like to prevent this problem. War Kills will contribute to your starting total Influence when we make the change, but until we bring the cannons back you will be unable to accrue more War Kills. Soon we hope to bring them back in a new way that is much more engaging and interesting than the current system.




It has been 80 days since this was announced, and we still have not seen it re-released. I think it's about time we should have a revamped system for War Kills.



Cost: Influence



15,000 Credits: Gives 500 - 750 Influence.

10,000 Credits, 200 Varium: Gives 500 - 750 Influence.

10,000 Credits, 500 Varium: Gives 750 - 1,000 Influence.

5,000 Credits, 1,000 Varium: Gives 1,000 - 1,500 Influence.

5,000 Credits, 1,500 Varium: Gives 1,500 - 2,000 Influence.

2,500 Varium: Gives 2,000 - 3,000 Influence.





AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 1
8/21/2012 17:02:41   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!
quote:

With the new changes we do not want to present a pay to win mechanic

That's why it got removed. Unless you steepen the varium costs and/or add more credits to the costs then it's still pay to win. Don't forget that you can use your keys for an extra 15K credits.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 2
8/21/2012 17:09:24   
King Helios
Member

Should I add 10K Credits to all the varium ones?
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 3
8/21/2012 17:10:28   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 Even then you can still get up to 30K from the 10K varium pack. It slows it down but it still gives a huge advantage to payers over the players.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
8/21/2012 17:16:25   
King Helios
Member

Would a limit on how many times it can be used / month help?
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 5
8/21/2012 17:18:29   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 If you have to cap or limit a feature because it can be abused then it probably isn't worth implementing in the first place unless it gets changed. NPCs are limited solely because this is a PvP game, not PvE.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 6
8/21/2012 17:20:43   
King Helios
Member

It isn't that p2w, especially with + Credits.
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 7
8/21/2012 17:34:10   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 You get 15 influence from a 2vs2. You're getting between 6000-9000 here for only 50$. That's between 400-600 2vs2 wins. If that's not P2W then I don't want to know what is.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 8
8/22/2012 11:31:26   
  RabbleFroth
Member

Another part of why it was removed was that it simply wasn't that compelling. You would dump some currency and increase some number without any real gameplay on top of it. We wanted the new Influence metric to be a measure of effort and coordination, not expenditure.

While we don't currently have any plans to bring it back, we've had a few discussions on how cannons could be a little more interesting, but nothing so far that was fun enough to implement.
Post #: 9
8/22/2012 12:08:21   
Mother1
Member

Here is a idea why not change the currency used to battle tokens instead of credits or varium? Battle token you can't buy unlike varium and credits especially with the new key system that actually lets you take extra credits as a bonus. With battle token being the currency if players want to use the weapons they have to duel to earn the tokens to use them no way around this. But if you don't like this idea, why not make a new achievements for influence that could replace the artillery master and warlord achievements. The first one could be given to players when they gain a certain amount of influence, and the second one like warlord could be earned by having the most influence out of everyone in a day. So tell me what do you think Rabble or anyone else who read this idea?
Epic  Post #: 10
8/22/2012 13:59:12   
  RabbleFroth
Member

Mother1, that solves the problem of the system not being pay to win, but does nothing to make it more interesting or fun. We would want to *really* overhaul it and make it far better before we brought it back.
Post #: 11
8/22/2012 14:35:07   
Mother1
Member

Not sure if this would make it more fun but it is another thought I was thinking of when I read your response Rabblefroth. How about adding a mini game with these each of the weapons when you pay your battle tokens to you them. Depending on the weapon the game could be different. like with the guns have a small shooting game with the cannons with a set time limit and have players aim the guns at characters for kills. The more kills you get the more influence you earn. The scaling for influence can be greater with each weapon since they are higher in level.For George lowe since unlike the weapons he is an actual character make it a flying punching mini game where the character George lowe flight and tungsten fists. The object with him could be to destroy as many of the enemy bases as you can for a set period of time. Lastly so the weapons and George lowe don't be overused limit the amount of times you can use each in a day since while the mini games could be fun and addictive, the point of the game is to duel.
Epic  Post #: 12
8/22/2012 14:47:33   
shadesofblue
Member

^
quote:

Another part of why it was removed was that it simply wasn't that compelling. You would dump some currency and increase some number without any real gameplay on top of it. We wanted the new Influence metric to be a measure of effort and coordination, not expenditure.


With that system, it still wouldn't be compelling enough. I think what we need is a rewards system (Level Scaling and Mutating items, anyone? We could make it so that after you reach a certain number of War Kills you get a weapon, then after you reach the next objective you get the Aux, etc. The Grand Prize , awarded to only the most commited, will be a OP Armor. (To reach the Grand Prize you'll need to dump hundreds of dollars in varium (Maybe even One Thousand $, just on war kills.)))
AQW  Post #: 13
8/22/2012 15:05:21   
Mother1
Member

Shadesofblue weren't you paying attention? That was one of the reasons why they removed it. They didn't want it to be pay to win. Besides this would only appeal to varium players and very few of them at that. Also why would people want to pay a huge amount of varium to get weapons when they can use less to get cheaper items (maybe even better) items? It makes no sense what so ever.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 8/22/2012 15:07:48 >
Epic  Post #: 14
8/22/2012 15:21:44   
shadesofblue
Member

^Because then they will be Elite. And why do we want to be Elite? Because it's human nature. And this is just an incentives program; didn't you notice how many war kills players like Dragonwawa had? A large amount of varium players used war kills, and it was a huge money making maching for AE; again, this is just an incentives program to help get the system up and running again and to motivate people to get war kills.

EDIT: Also, War Kills were never Pay-to Win, since there was nothing to win except World Dominiations. But that doesn't help the player at all; What do players get if they dump a thousand bucks into war-kills? They get the Artillery Master Achievement, a World Domination Achievment, and a few more world dominations for thier faction. So, what? If they get kicked from thier faction after this, the only thing they really got from that 1000 dollars was 2k rating points, and some bragging rights. Most competitive players are varium (except for those select few such as Jari and wolf.Wolf.wolf), and only competitive players care about Influence for thier faction, so it makes sense that this feature caters varium players. And yes, we can steepen varium prices so it will be harder for players to abuse this as a pay to win feature.

< Message edited by shadesofblue -- 8/22/2012 15:28:57 >
AQW  Post #: 15
8/22/2012 15:42:32   
Mother1
Member

^ It was pay to win remember the now rare warlord achievement? To get the most war kills you would need to use the varium weapons and George lowe since the mortar (which non varium players could use) only gave out 109 war kills as best and unless you had the max amount of credits (which most people would never save up to) you wouldn't even come close to getting the warlord achievement. If that wasn't pay to win I don't know what is. You are basically playing to win an achievement. Also you are also paying to be on top of the leader board of all time war kills. Lastly you could get the artillery master achievement without varium it just took longer to get it.

Again what are you talking about? War kills worked for artillery master, and warlord as well. Also remember the bug that allow you to get more then one of an award? They most likely kept doing this so they could keep winning the award over and over again as well.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 8/22/2012 15:47:30 >
Epic  Post #: 16
8/22/2012 16:01:11   
shadesofblue
Member

^A bug means that it wasn't supposed to be in-game, yet for some wierd coding reason it was. So that's not really a legitimate reason.

quote:

You are basically playing to win an achievement. Also you are also paying to be on top of the leader board of all time war kills.

Paying an absurd amount of money to win 3625 rating points is honestly not quite pay-to-win. Sure, at a fundemental level it is, but when people think pay-to-win we usually think about non-varium player vs. Fully Enchanced Varium player. Paying to win 3625 rating points is not worth it. Also, look what happened to the leaderboard. It's gone, and the only thing we remember about War Kills is how Dragonwawa dominated Legion with it.

quote:

Lastly you could get the artillery master achievement without varium it just took longer to get it.


Exactly, so it's not completely pay-to-win. You could play-to-win as well.

< Message edited by shadesofblue -- 8/22/2012 16:02:58 >
AQW  Post #: 17
8/22/2012 16:03:18   
Rui.
Banned

 

 rabble simple solution. Have a daily legion vs exile war bar that resets every 24 hours. Get back the varium and non varium cannons and the cheevo. The winning side gets 2x credit boost for the entire day. Now considering how 2x credits will make the winning side have a upper hand. Limit canon usage to 1 use per person per day.
Post #: 18
8/22/2012 16:06:33   
shadesofblue
Member

^Brilliant.
AQW  Post #: 19
8/22/2012 16:14:01   
ND Mallet
Legendary AK!!!


 @shades That's exactly what pay-to-win is. It's the point where you're so bad off not paying that you have no chance to win without money, regardless of what the reward is.

@rui The system used to be just like that but without the credit boost or the limit. The limit is only going to make the problem last a lot longer since only so many people from both sides will use the cannons and one side will generally win over the other side pretty easily(since the alignments aren't balanced in terms of money spending) and since they only have to spend their money one time a day then they can repeat the process for several days and thus keep getting that credit boost repeatedly and allow them to get to use the free cannons more often as well.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 20
8/22/2012 16:14:11   
Mother1
Member

Shadesofblue the achievement is worth 1625 points not 3625. Also don't forget half of the bugs in the game people don't even know that they are that. But still it was still pay to win the warlord achievement as well as warlord/ the chance to get warlord no matter how you look at it. I know this because I have the warlord achievement and in my profile it says it is worth 1625 points.

Also actually even the artillery even though non varium players could get it it was still pay to win as well but by choice. I say this because remember varium packages offer credits and varium. Player could easy use the credits they get from these packages to fire to mortar to get this achievement in the past.

But the point I am making that you can't dispute is that you had to buy varium to get on top of the daily leaderboard to win warlord and since you are paying to get on top you are paying to win.
Epic  Post #: 21
8/22/2012 16:31:31   
shadesofblue
Member

@Above
Umm I was talking about all three cheevo's combined (World Domination, Artillery Master, Warlord).
@ND Mallet
The point I'm trying to make is that in this specific case, is:
quote:

Paying to win 3625 rating points is not worth it.
I mean, this is a f2p game, and it's great that it is; it gets a lot of players into the game, helps create a better community, etc. But I think it's ok if once in a while there's a feature that only varium players benefit from, especially considering the rewards. Non-variums don't need War Kills to get a World Domination, so really, it's only 2625 rating points they'll have easier access to if this plan to make war kills cheaper goes through. I agree that non-variums should have a better chance at Artillery Master and Warlord, and that there should be more motivation for war kills. I support this topic in general.
AQW  Post #: 22
8/22/2012 16:42:10   
Mother1
Member

Shadeofblue, if this was the case, then why did they not only remove it, but also said that they didn't want something in the game that was pay to win? Simple because they didn't like the idea of only group of people benefiting from something while the other group was left out.

let's take factions for example. Remember what happened with the factions options when you had to pay credits and varium to make one? simple they changed it so that Non varium players could make them as well by making it a choice on spending either varium or credits to make one. This means that they aren't trying to balance the things out so that both varium and non varium players can do certain things.

Besides varium players already have something for themselves and that is all the promo items, and anything else the staff comes up with that is new. Not to mention there are already several achievements that only varium players can get such as dragon master, the now rare elite and founder Etc.
Epic  Post #: 23
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