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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI

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9/12/2012 8:51:50   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

I mean if E-Shield and Matrix were allowed then why don't classes already have it? Too strong perhaps as a whole? :3


It takes a lot of brain-power to think about these. 'V'

Oh, and because of the lack of 2 passive skills on classes, 1 may need to be added, and replace a skill. It could be Malfunction, it could be EMP Grenade.
AQ Epic  Post #: 226
9/12/2012 15:12:48   
Wootz
Member

Just one question.
Why the hell are you still wanting a nerf to Cyber Hunters? Even after you got it already, holy crap you think that EMP Grenade is OP'd, like Energy boosters don't exist. -.-'
Stop complaining about it already, no wonder I barerly discuss balance on here.
AQW Epic  Post #: 227
9/12/2012 15:22:30   
Stabilis
Member

^

If referring to me I only wish for a fix, a long-term fix, without imbalanced nerfs or buffs. Plasma Armor? Mercenary. Energy Shield? Bounty Hunter, and even better it is an active skill. Wootz, you may have seen me as a Cyber Hunter when you first changed to one. That class had savage potential. Now it is derailing into Mercenary territory because the passive skill defines the class, sad but true.

The class needs an improved Static Charge concept, and at least 1 melee skill that is stronger than Cheap Shot. The skill tree needs to represent the best of Bounty Hunters and Tech Mages alike, yet it does not. You could say I love this class more than you or Raynie. Well, that is because I can not choose between Tech Mage and Bounty Hunter!
AQ Epic  Post #: 228
9/12/2012 15:32:38   
Wootz
Member

I'm referring to everyone who still wants a nerf to Cyber Hunter.

I've seen a lot of people in the class in my 11 months of it. And true it had great potential back in the beggining, only time the Max Massacre build actually gaved a great ratio. I never wanted the passive in it and I suggested what should be implented as another passive, but it was overlooked, I guess.

Yes, indeed it does. The original Static Charge was a masterpiece if you ask me. Also, I'd like anothe melee skill, because I love an all out offensive build. Then it should have EMP Grenade, shouldn't it? Why doesn't it represent the classes, the answer's simple, Plasma Armor, for which the class enthusiast (as you, Raynie and I) were againts in the first place. Hahah, honestly, I didn't choose Bounty Hunter, I was playing at my friends house and he switched to Bounty Hunter (thank God, Hunter for life!) while I was in the toilet. And now until I get some Varium I am stuck as a Bounty Hunter. I'm going back to Cyber Hunter. :)

I'd love to see this class get what it deserves, but seriously dude, no one loves the class as me.
AQW Epic  Post #: 229
9/12/2012 16:27:48   
rayniedays56
Member

@wootz


Nope. :) I may just be as in love as you. :D



I am switching back to Cyber Hunter. Was going to be my big announcement next week.

They want OP? I will SHOW them OP.





It's time we showed our true opinions.

Depressed Void
Wootz
Rayniedays56

Just a few cybers who felt Cybers were not UP back in the day. As my post suggested, who didn't feel UP with those Strength Abusing Smoke Screen Tactical Mercenaries?
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 230
9/12/2012 16:55:56   
Wootz
Member

Hell yeah!
It's time to bring back the Over-Powered crazy builds! :D
AQW Epic  Post #: 231
9/12/2012 17:06:11   
Mother1
Member

^ For your sake I hope you don't succeed in that. Not because I don't want to lose to them, but because if you do this, people will copy the build, and it will be like the Str blood mage build all over again, and CH will once again a gain another nerf.

But Wootz Rayniedays56, since both of you were CH before began playing this game, how much energy did you use to get back from static charge before it was first nerfed to 44% raw damage?
Epic  Post #: 232
9/12/2012 17:17:48   
rayniedays56
Member

It used to be 60% for a week, then nerfed to 55% at 80% damage deal, which was the same as 44%


Our old tree consisted of


FM-CS-EMP
TEC-SC-DM
MS-MALF-VENOM
PG-MASS-SA


The SC was nerfed because it gave too much EP back, which I agreed to.

A 44% regain gave back 23-28 EP.


The nerf to 29% gave way to 13-18 EP gained, which I felt was fair since out class has no guaranteed HP or EP regain.



****
I may or may not have an old screen shot Let me see :)



Here was when Plasma Armor was introduced
http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n496/rayniedays56/me.jpg



My OP build...
http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n496/rayniedays56/amberrayne-1.jpg



My fave build, when I saw how PA was ruining the class
http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n496/rayniedays56/tech.png

< Message edited by rayniedays56 -- 9/12/2012 17:27:01 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 233
9/13/2012 0:48:17   
Wootz
Member

quote:

^ For your sake I hope you don't succeed in that. Not because I don't want to lose to them, but because if you do this, people will copy the build, and it will be like the Str blood mage build all over again, and CH will once again a gain another nerf.

I hope I will and that people won't try to copy it that much.

Here are some old builds if you want. :)

My first build - Strenght
43 HP tank without much enchantmnets
Max Massacre - Best build evah!!!!
The Original Multi-Massacre
High Tech build w/ Venom

That brought back some memories. :)
AQW Epic  Post #: 234
9/13/2012 0:53:40   
shadesofblue
Member

Before the static nerf I can definitely recall people getting 30 energy back easy. Some STR builds got 35 energy back (I even remember 1 guy getting 40 energy back. And yes, CH was considered UP - on par with Merc at the time) . Now I get 2-6 energy back XD Shows how the class has changed over time and how PA has affected Static the class's fundementals. :P Static used to be the staple for CH's much like Reroute is a staple for TM's and TLM's and Bloodlust is a staple for BH's and BM's, and Hybrid Armor is a staple for Mercs. (Most classes also have (at least) 2 staples now, with the exception of CH (kind-of, unless you count MASS or MALF) and Merc (currently)). Now, the staple's PA, and if you choose not to use it, well, you'll probably have a MUCH harder time making an effective build.

EDIT: Secondary Staples are: Deadly Aim(BM) Mineral Armor (TLM) Plasma Bolt (TM) Smokescreen or Shadow Arts, depending on how you look at it (BH) None (CH) None (Merc).

< Message edited by shadesofblue -- 9/13/2012 1:00:00 >
AQW  Post #: 235
9/13/2012 7:41:52   
Wootz
Member

I don't understand why can't we just lose the Plasma Armor, get Technician back, buff up the Static Charge back to it's original state. And have our heritage intact!

As Shades was saying, Static Charge is our mark, we need that.
Also, personally, I belive that only the Mercenary classes should have passive armors. Hunters & Tech Mages both have a debuff to it and have an Health and/or Energy regain by each turn.
AQW Epic  Post #: 236
9/13/2012 8:25:36   
Ranloth
Banned


 Wootz, and then you need EP/HP Regen that's passive to compensate for it. HP would be ridiculous with pre-nerf SC (it was OP back then anyway, it was a MUST to even play which is NOT the purpose of skills) and EP regen would be clone of Reroute and SC? Class must have 2 passives; Passive Armor, EP/HP Regen and Debuff. You have 2 now, and if you take one out then add EP/HP Regen that's passive and would cause even more disaster.
AQ Epic  Post #: 237
9/13/2012 8:34:56   
Wootz
Member

Trans,
I didn't suggest a HP regain. Having a Plasma Armour makes the player a Mercenary not a Hunter. Just because you use that formula for a class doesn't mean that it is a must for a class.
AQW Epic  Post #: 238
9/13/2012 8:45:09   
Stabilis
Member

I have to agree with Wootz, a skill tree does not have an obligation to hold certain skills to be balanced. In fact, a passive that causes minor DoT can rival Bloodlust which may cancel each other. We would only be holding back if we limit ourselves to "classic" skills that are not original.
AQ Epic  Post #: 239
9/13/2012 8:54:25   
Ranloth
Banned
quote:

Just because you use that formula for a class doesn't mean that it is a must for a class

I.. use? It's the case for ALL classes for a long time now.
Merc - Intimidate and Armor, Mage - Debuff and EP Regen, BH - HP Regen and Debuff, CH - Armor and Debuff, TLM - Armor and EP Regen, BM - HP Regen and Debuff (Intimidate)

You do realise Ashari was deciding between taking Reroute or Smoke out from TLMs right? That's why.. <_< >_>

Void, is that so? And testing also takes 10-20 mins right? ;)
AQ Epic  Post #: 240
9/13/2012 9:16:03   
Stabilis
Member

quote:

And testing also takes 10-20 mins right? ;)


Well, if someone breaks their foot logging into the testing server it might not even happen. Testing really depends on the magnitude of changes involved. It could take days.
AQ Epic  Post #: 241
9/13/2012 15:13:30   
Wootz
Member

Doesn't matter. Nothin' good can come out of something that has been used for a very long time. Here's an example: Say in kickboxing, if you do repetitive kicks a lot (front, front,back,front leg), your opponent can see that and adapt to that, and for that you may lose the match. (I train kickbox, just if you are wonderin')

Why not having this for a Cyber Hunter: Debuff, Passive blocking, static Energy regain. Which cancels out the Armor and Debuff as it provides an part to the formula.

That doesn't mean anything. The class was OP'd at the time and everyone else mostly sucked, except for those who found a way around it.

I'd love to contribute to test out balance. Even if it takes my time away.
AQW Epic  Post #: 242
9/13/2012 15:30:24   
rayniedays56
Member

Amber rises again as a cyber hunter :)


Using a plasma grenade/dex abuse build. VERY fun :)
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 243
9/13/2012 15:58:51   
Stabilis
Member

I admit, we Cyber Hunters overly rely on Static Charge, even since the beginning, so I feel obligated to put this forward... Static Charge as a passive skill so that we do not have to worry about using it...

Cyber Hunter:

quote:

Static Charge: Passively adds a percentage of your outgoing damage to energy.
Energy Required: 0 (Passive)
Energy Regained:
Level 1: 9%
Level 2: 11%
Level 3: 13%
Level 4: 15%
Level 5: 17%
Level 6: 19%
Level 7: 20%
Level 8: 21%
Level 9: 22%
Level 10: 23%
Weapon Required: None
Stat: 16 Dexterity at level 1 (+2 per skill level) ; 34 Dexterity at Max
Level Required: 2
Improves With: None
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 0


quote:

Replacing Plasma Armor...

Energy Shield: Increases energy resistance for you or an ally during combat.

Energy Required:
Level 1: 11
Level 2: 13
Level 3: 15
Level 4: 17
Level 5: 19
Level 6: 21
Level 7: 23
Level 8: 25
Level 9: 27
Level 10: 29
Weapon Required: None
Stat Required: None
Level Required: 2
Improves With: Support (+1 Resistance per 4 Support)
Warm Up: 0
Cool Down: 2
AQ Epic  Post #: 244
9/13/2012 15:59:46   
Ranloth
Banned


 Having passive blocking is simply SA which would make it a bit more luck based but more unreliable than PA. And you want that change for.. SC buff? So it becomes a skill that is a must to have in a build again thus not needing to train Energy ever again and h4xing your way through with base Energy and ridiclous numbers from SC (Energy regen)? Only way out for you would be SC being like BL but probably lower %s since you could regain even more EP than pre-nerf SC could in 2 turns when not blocked.

But Devs have said, PA IS staying since it was wanted before it was made (to have passive defence, that's what players wanted) and it doesn't matter it goes into Merc territory since we can say TLMs are Mages in other words. Or BMs are Hunters. No they aren't and it doesn't really matter. CHs focus on Energy/Tech more than pure damage so you need a defensive skills too thus PA is fine. Removing it won't give you SC buff that you want and cause more problems due to another passive being needed. If you will rant about how it killed creativity then you're restricting yourself because you cannot win with different build. Mass or SA build (or mix) isn't only one that is good, there are other Tanks but also Support works, you can work your way round Tech even with PA or even ditch PA for sake of Poison build coupled with SA to somewhat substitute for lack of PA and get your Dex and Tech high instead; you would have good use outta EMP and Stun Grenade too, Malf could aid you, Poison skips through defences and SC wouldn't be useful but you could try to use it on Rage due to high Dex and could get some EP back (more than usual) despite being tank.
AQ Epic  Post #: 245
9/13/2012 16:11:36   
Wootz
Member

You're complaining about a must have skill for Cyber Hunters?
Every class has must have skills. Don't be stupid.
Mercenaries - Hybrid Armor and partially Adrenaline
Tactical Mercenaries - Hybrid Armor & Reroute
Bounty Hunters - Bloodlust & Massacre
Cyber Hunters - Plasma armor, Static charge & Shadow arts
Tech Mages - Reroute, Deadly Aim& depending on build: Malfuncion & Plasma bolt + Super Charge
Blood Mages - Bloodlust and Deadly Aim

Then we should nerf all those skills because they are must haves! Like Mages don't use their base Energy aswell.

Geez, who wanted Plasma Armor. Like we didn't suggest douzen of other skills. Plasma Armor is fake and *censored*, it really just made the class Over-Powered like pre-nerf TLM and made it the complaining part of the game. Give me one class enthusiast who does want a Plasma armor. We had defensive skills and it was fine. I don't care about the percentage of the skill, I just want it have the old formula of the base damage. I can't complain about creativity, just look at my builds when I was a Cyber Hunter. No one used them, yet I won more then the "flavour" builds. I used Support build, worked. I used Strenght-Support build, worked. I used Strenght build, worked. I used Dexterity build, worked. I used Technology build, had a lower percentage but still worked. I tanked, worked. I was all out offensive, worked. Poison build was awesome, mixed with Multi shot and Massacre, it was one of my better builds (and I used 83 Energy Points on it, so don't complain on the "huge" Energy pool). I know the class, I know what it can do. You don't have to teach me.
AQW Epic  Post #: 246
9/13/2012 16:16:53   
Stabilis
Member

@Trans,

Even though that was meant for Wootz,

Tactical Mercenary = M + TM

Cyber Hunter = BH + TM

Blood Mage = TM + BH

Gsirndbdkdbskfbdldbdlsbnsksvsksbsaldvdj!!! Sorry my dog just rolled my head on the keyboard.

And if anyone asks, yes Blood Mage needs to become BH + M otherwise the class balance is broken. This is like playing Pokemon when the only types are Fire, Water, and Rock. If you know type attrition then you know what I mean.

< Message edited by Depressed Void -- 9/13/2012 16:17:21 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 247
9/13/2012 19:09:26   
Mother1
Member

Wootz The reason static was nerfed once again because people were complaining about CH using it in heal loops. Not to mention it was overpowered, and the majority of CH (80% if not all) over relyed on this skill while never training there energy. It was a must have for just about every hunter. If this isn't more proof I remember some CH wanting the Pyro fly's ability changed for the sole purpose that it had the chance of shutting down static If that isn't over relying on a skill to win then I don't know what is. Also as it has been said many times by people as well as myself for someone to gain 11-15, 15-16 or even 17-19 energy back from a strike that can do 3-7 damage at times is OP and unbalanced. It seems the only reason you are complaining about PA because it was what caused the nerfing to Static to where it is now.

Now for the must have skills. Caster TM don't use deadly aim. Reroute yes but not Deadly aim. So for this kind of build it isn't a must have skill.

Not all bounty hunters use massacre plus this isn't even a passive skill. While a lot of them use this skill not all of them do.

There are a lot of mercs who don't even use adrenaline since the skill is broken for several builds. Plus Hybrid armor is a must, however the only reason for this is because the class doesn't have any defensive buffing skills unlike the rest of the classes. The only one it has was replaced for the broken adrenaline to balance the classes and if you were to nerf Hybrid armor mercs would be at even more at the mercy of the other classes.

Now onto the plasma armor thing. Now let me get this straight you want Plasma armor removed so Static can go back to the way it was even if it means that the class in a whole would go back to be underpowered (since that is what mostly everyone who used the class before PA came) just so you can get high amounts of energy from a strike that might actually do only 3-7 for some? That sounds extremely selfish to be honest, and more like the people wanting this OP skill to remain in the dark so it could be abused.

Now for all your other complaints about other skills, if they are indeed OP as some say and the admins see it they will indeed nerf them like they did Static and every thing else that has been OP.
Epic  Post #: 248
9/13/2012 20:51:07   
The Astral Fury
Member

BH needs a nerf why have we een nerfing all the other classes but not BH. It regians HP when it attacks with blood lust, it reduces your chance to ht increases theirs and it make you do way more damage with Smoke screen and they have masscre too which is unblockable and does a bunch of damage and cheap shot with smoke screen you'll irnore their defenses, increase your crit and d way more damage if you use smoke screen before BH need a nerf take away smoke screen or blood lust.
DF AQW  Post #: 249
9/13/2012 21:35:26   
Mother1
Member

Dragonman111 Support is what makes you crit chances increase not smokescreen. Also as it has been said before masscare is easily countered with a well placed energy draining move. If anything BH is one of the most balanced classes that is in Epic duel as of now so why nerf a class that is balanced?
Epic  Post #: 250
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