RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI


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9/16/2012 0:27:04

midnight assassin
Member

Then why don't replace the blood lust of bm with a new skill/passive?

AQW

Epic

Post #: 276

9/16/2012 0:35:10

theholyfighter
Member

Omg Mother1 you're obviously trying to favor Tech Mages and nerf Cybers
Static DOES need a buff! Last update made Static on the amount they hit, but they didn't raise the %( 1 % makes no difference )
Roughly a Tech Mage regains 1/4 energy-to-being-hit evrey turn (average). In 3 turns, they get about 15 energy back [(20+20+20)x0.25=15] Isn't that the same as the previous Static?! And yes, Cybers have Plasma Armor but Tech Mages have Deadly Aim as well.
I'm not saying Tech Mages need a nerf, saying that Cyber's Static now is just there to take a spot in our skill tree being useless.

Change Static into Reroute and nerf Reroute! Then there would be no more energy pool loops...

< Message edited by theholyfighter -- 9/16/2012 1:02:39 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 277

9/16/2012 0:36:09

Mother1
Member

The class itself is a more violent and aggressive version of the tech mage that develop a lust for blood hence the reason why they have blood lust. If you were to remove the blood lust from the class, then it would destroy everything that the class stands for.

But if you forget about that, then you would have to switch it for another passive not another skill. If it was switched for another skill, they BM believe it or not would be at a disadvantage since every class but them would have two passives.

Theholyfighter, I am not favoring TM over CH. I personally feel TM needs a nerf in the plasma bolt I have said it several times in this thread and if you read the thread you would see that I mentioned this and agreed with people who said this. However as stated by Rabble himself Cyber hunters are still doing well they are in no terms underpowered.

Buffing static back to the way it was will however do that. Many players have seen it and said it, but when a skill is a must have to win, then something is wrong. Plus the way static worked before was abuse no matter how much you try to justify it isn't. Gaining 13-20 energy no matter what in one strike regardless of what you hit just because you have the potential to do that damage is overpowered. It was the only move worked with raw damage and not actual damage which wasn't fair in the least since ever other move in the game worked with actual damage.

Not to mention because of that, hardly any of the cyber hunters would train their energy and leave it at the base energy. Of all the classes Cyber hunter did this the most with TLM, BM and TM coming in close 2nd's 3rd and 4th.

Plus with reroute you aren't always granteed to gain back that energy. Remember like static if an opponent attacks you and it is blocked you gain nothing and a deflection will reduce the energy you gain back since the damage you gain is reduced. However with static as long at it hit you would gain 13-20 energy depending on your potential damage as long as it wasn't blocked so static was more powerful then reroute since as long as it wasn't blocked it was granteed to gain this back where as with reroute it isn't 100%

Lastly so what if static doesn't give you a granteed set amount of energy like it used to. It still give you back energy based on actual damage, and remember the merc class doesn't even have a skill to give them back energy so even though it isn't at the it's old strength be glad that you have it. But if you want to thank anyone for the skill's nerf thank those who abused it with heal loops, and the people who complained about heal loops. I myself didn't care about this, however other people did and the staff answered their call.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/16/2012 0:52:43 >

Epic	Post #: 278

9/16/2012 1:01:41

theholyfighter
Member

^ You're requesting a nerf in Plasma Bolt is because you don't use it! balance Changes means you've considered ALL KINDS OF BUILDS, not just some particular ones.

For Massive Strike, i suggest a nerf, but I currently ran out of ideas...Anyone got some?

AQW

Epic

Post #: 279

9/16/2012 1:08:57

Mother1
Member

Theholyfighter, I used it, and I see that it is OP. It is also nuking the mid level players especially merc since they don't have any way to protect themselves from debuffs within their builds and with the nerfs to the assault and rusted assault bots it is even worse for them but then again this is the backlash from them not testing the infernal android (since when they decided to nerf it they made the decision check the other bots and sadly those two along with the azreal got nerfed). Also it isn't just me who said this other players have also said this in the thread so it isn't just me. When a class can two turn you and you have decent protection because of a combo that works together you know something is overpowered.

I have seen TM with malf and max plasma bolt 2 turn other players, or bring them close to death because of this combo. How is that any different then from when str BM used to two term people with the fireball berzeker combo before it was nerfed?

As for massive strike the only reason I rejected your idea was because crits as I have said are based on chance, and it sounded like you wanted a weapon nerfed because of just bad luck which isn't fair in the least. Even if Massive strike was limited to strikes like you originally wanted in your thread this still would not solve the problem with overpowered moves. People like yourself requested a nerf to this weapon because the moves that it powered up were supercharged, but don't forget many moves in the game depending on builds and the way they are set up will be more powerful then others. Nerf the weapon and the moves will still be powerful when they crit. Balance out the moves and while the attack with the weapon will still be powerful it won't be so overpowered to were it isn't an over critical hit.

However, Mr Black Op as much as I didn't say it in the original thread did bring up a good point about it favoring the 4 of the 6 classes while leaving TLM and TM at a disadvantage since these two classes don't have moves with a higher chance to crit then others. So my idea would be to weaken the effect with these moves or make it not apply to these higher then normal chance to crit moves. This way it wouldn't favor any class move while.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/16/2012 1:45:29 >

Epic	Post #: 280

9/16/2012 1:30:15

kittycat
Member

@theholyfighter: The issue is that tech abuse builds are strong among the battlefield. You know those high HP/EP builds that TM use for casting? that's the problem. They can spam Bolt without much stress because of its large energy pool. Powered by tech, it can deal 70+ damage max while the general limit is usually in the 60s range. I have seen players, especially one of my buddies, that had near 100% win because of that build. Massive Strike is there to encourage support, but it does come in whenever it allows. I don't think it should be reduced in effect just because the opponent/player got lucky with that critical.

< Message edited by kittycat -- 9/16/2012 1:31:40 >

Post #: 281

9/16/2012 1:33:23

Death Jr
Member

If we put a cap or penalty to Str it wouldn't really destroying creativity right since it does the complete opposite. So why not do something about Str since most of the balance issues are related to Str. For mass why not put a higher support req or higher energy req. Or we could do this: I believe mass has 7 strikes ( correct me if I'm wrong). Why not take out the 5 and 6 strike and reduce the final strike damage. With my current max mass build my mass does an average of 75 damage without smoke. That is way too much damage.

< Message edited by Death Jr -- 9/16/2012 2:34:22 >

Post #: 282

9/16/2012 1:48:23

Blaze The Aion Ender
Member

The assault bot by far affected the merc community more than any other
It was basically a merc nerf
Just return the assault bot back to normal
That fixes that problem with merc's
Other classes use a skill, which is a more effective counter to Malf and Smoke, but merc cannot

AQW

Epic

Post #: 283

9/16/2012 2:51:13

Darkwing
Member

New skill for CH( instead of SC, or what you can call that skill left after so many nerfs)

Hunter's cannon:
Fires a rocket that has 25% chance for a critical strike ; 20% chance to reduce the energy cost of the used skill by 50%

energy:
level1: 15
.........
level 10: 33

weapon required: none
damage type: physical
improves with technology( +1 damage per 5 technology)
warm up: 0
cool down: 3
stat required: 18 support

Post #: 284

9/16/2012 2:57:44

Mother1
Member

Darkwing no for the so soul purpose this sound like a copy of bunker blaster only with the added effect of energy reduction. Plus Ch already has a move that has a 25% chance to crit. them having two moves that can do this would be extremely OP. If anything if this move were to be put into play you would have to remove both static and cheap shot and add a different move in to balance this out.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/16/2012 2:58:24 >

Epic	Post #: 285

9/16/2012 3:06:47

Blaze The Aion Ender
Member

@Darkwing
That would be like giving bunker buster to bounty hunter
It makes no sense, and it would be overpowered

AQW

Epic

Post #: 286

9/16/2012 4:29:26

RageSoul
Member

ZOMG!! Again with the Plasma Bolt nerfing?! Sure Casters can 2 turn at low-levels , but why consider only one side ... when you can consider ALL?

*What about high levels ?
*Are they Varium powered ? Or are they just Non-Var equipped ?
*Are they using Partially-Enhanced gear or Fully-Enhanced gear?
*Are there any Luck-factors present?
*Booster-hogs?
*What type of gear are they using?
*Are they fully equipped or not ?
*What level are in they anyway?
*Any specials present in the gear?
*How skillful / noobish / lucky are they / their opponents ?

So many things to consider that in fact , probably i haven't mentioned all!

Plus , low-levels are all about focusing on high damage , so why would you nerf something that was similar to Merc's previous balance design back in Gamma ? I remember the time pwning higher levels with imbalanced Bunker Buster + Rage combo ( since Rage can ignore up to 65% of DEF/RES back then if you didn't know ) due to crappy gear balance at low levels . And that was the reason why they ( Merc players ) seemed OPed , but really , the class they're using really isn't . It's either skill or other other players are just noobs . And did i even mention to you that Caster TM wasn't successful back then ? It wasn't even OPed back then .

You're making them stick to Focus builds again , with not much originality / creativity (just like the good-old Gamma days) . And please , take a look again on their stats . Now , is it even possible for them to get that amount of HP and EP whilst have moderate defense without Enhancements ? Possible ... if the stat-requirements are useless / not there that is .

And what i have said before ( which is once upon a page ) , it was meant to be have a strong Caster build . Can't beat it ? Then either blame the gear he / she has or yourself . You can actually tank every skill it throws longer but can you do that in STR BM or BH ? No . If they boost , boost too .
If you have a strong EP drain , use it . Still not winning? Maybe you're using the wrong class to counter the build . Now i'm not saying "Go CH instead" , but there are times that one builds beats the other builds in a class but other classes can beat it ( and the other builds too , BTW ) .

AQW

Epic

Post #: 287

9/16/2012 4:45:42

Darkwing
Member

then maybe 20% rage reduction OR defence ignore instead of crit chance. and why hunters can't use cannon? cyber hunters can tank....even if they are rogue like class, I don't see why it doesn't make sense to use a cannon. Why would it be OP?

< Message edited by Darkwing -- 9/16/2012 4:48:06 >

Post #: 288

9/16/2012 4:51:48

RageSoul
Member

Because it's un-blockable and Tanks ( especially the high TECH ones ) would benefit from it . Plus , Defense's progression is slower than Resistance's .

AQW

Epic

Post #: 289

9/16/2012 5:04:24

Ranloth
Banned

In regards to Bolt, it's Varium players punching hard with it against other Varium players as well so worse when it affects F2P. Instead of nerfing, how about Strength requirement of 42 at Lvl 10 (max)? I mean if you wanna abuse Bolt then invest something in Strength which will lower the power down + eliminate abuse at lower Level if any. If we nerf damage, look at F2P vs. Varium, and how it'll affect it. Balance is best seen from F2P perspective, few people who post here tend to look at it in this way which is quite interesting.

Also copy of Bunker to CHs at cost of SC? Sure it may be weak (SC) but you can still use it.. Just train some Energy (even sacrificing your 2 damage/Def/Res can give you as high as 16 EP! (assuming progression is 4 stats/1 Def, even better if slower)) instead and rely on SC when it's safe to use it and able to get some EP back. It's not a must in a build since it was abused before. I mean, SC didn't require you to even train Energy yet Mages/TLMs train it despite Reroute which is better passive. What sorcery is this? Perhaps they need it for skills but also strategy purposes (what if.. scenarios so even getting EMP'd).

Epic

Post #: 290

9/16/2012 5:11:37

King FrostLich
Member

quote:

*What about high levels ?
*Are they Varium powered ? Or are they just Non-Var equipped ?
*Are they using Partially-Enhanced gear or Fully-Enhanced gear?
*Are there any Luck-factors present?
*Booster-hogs?
*What type of gear are they using?
*Are they fully equipped or not ?
*What level are in they anyway?
*Any specials present in the gear?
*How skillful / noobish / lucky are they / their opponents ?

1.) Those with infernal weapons who manage to crit you will mean your doom. The rest are Frost Destroyer users or Caden's Wrath and 60% have Delta Knight armor. Non varium casters tend to have either Bio Hazard Husk or Imperial armor.
2.) Mostly varium, the non varium ones are rare to find but still near the power of a varium user
3.) Mostly fully enhanced.
4.) Nope, but if they have enough support or lucky to pull off a crit then you die easily.
5.) Yes, ALL of them.
6.) Any item that gives high tech or partially.
7.) Yes. 98% of the time.
8) 29 - 35. Level 34 -35 are mostly varium users.
9.) See #1 for details.
10.) Relies too much on Plasma Bolt and starts using DM or Technician in later turns for extra defenses that fend off strong attacks in short, too noobish and unskillful.

Ironically, despite saying this I've never lost to a caster even when I got critted by rage plasma bolt as a 5 focus BM. The problem is that I have to use boosters because they all try to conserve mana as much as possible and redo it all over again. Also, they often bring health boosters though finding some casters with energy boosters is uncommon to me.

< Message edited by King FrostLich -- 9/16/2012 5:15:13 >

Epic	Post #: 291

9/16/2012 5:37:43

RageSoul
Member

quote:

1.) Those with infernal weapons who manage to crit you will mean your doom. The rest are Frost Destroyer users or Caden's Wrath and 60% have Delta Knight armor. Non varium casters tend to have either Bio Hazard Husk or Imperial armor.
2.) Mostly varium, the non varium ones are rare to find but still near the power of a varium user
3.) Mostly fully enhanced.
4.) Nope, but if they have enough support or lucky to pull off a crit then you die easily.
5.) Yes, ALL of them.
6.) Any item that gives high tech or partially.
7.) Yes. 98% of the time.
8) 29 - 35. Level 34 -35 are mostly varium users.
9.) See #1 for details.
10.) Relies too much on Plasma Bolt and starts using DM or Technician in later turns for extra defenses that fend off strong attacks in short, too noobish and unskillful.

So in short , the main reason is the gear , and part of it is the build .

Upon observing it even more :
Yeah maybe the build is a bit too strong . Plus , another reason why i don't wan't them to be nerfed is due to the fact that even low levels are affected and nerfing is too overrated . In addition, it's better that they buff the other "in need of a buff classes and builds" like Merc and SUPP builds . That way , everyone can be happy :D!!

quote:

Instead of nerfing, how about Strength requirement of 42 at Lvl 10 (max)?

Hmmm , at level 1 , 15 STR required is .... not so bad , but would be better if they just buff the others instead .

AQW

Epic

Post #: 292

9/16/2012 8:07:51

Mother1
Member

Lord aegis PB is way too OP as many have said. Remember when they changed plasma rain to dex? You know why they did that? It was because of the casters that you are so much defending. They would Plasma bolt, plasma rain, X move then repeat this consistently destroying everything with tech abuse. They wanted to stop the abuse casters were causing to all the other players.

I have to ask you while it was meant to be powerful, do you think the staff wanted caster builds to be so powerful that they destroy other build out there? I don't think so the staff wanted the classes to be balanced, not one class or one type of build destroy's all, and right now that is kind of what it is with casters. Even at the mid high to mid low levels caster mages are 2 turning players like blood mages used to before the nerf.

Also with my alt I don't have a lot of credits to spend to get different gear for my level, and I have changed my build as you suggested, however every time I battle a caster TM my merc get's it butt kicked unless I manage to get lucky and get a crit with the bunker blaster while using same weapon that you want limited to strikes (yes the II) or actually get lucky and take out PB with the pyro flies ability but even with the first and second thing happening it doesn't always grantee me a win and this is for a varium merc. (without enhancements) what about non varium mercs who have to fight these OP casters at the lower levels who don't have the options of the II or pyro fly? The infernal android would not help you all that much since the it's a bot that works with turns yet casters kill them in 2 turns, and the assault/rusted assault bots have been nerfed making merc even more vulnerable to debuffs.

While I can feel you wanting to protect the low level mages who have no choice but to rely on this move (since this all they can really do) the mid low- high levels are overly abusing this to get wins against all other classes to the point were you have become a caster or change you build to an energy tank build to protect yourself or even stand a chance against these casters, and even doing this isn't a grantee that you will win against them. So tell me is it really fair to leave a move vastly OP just for the sake of lower levels to compete while the rest of levels have to suffer? Upon reading your more recent posts you are even seeing that it is too strong.

My idea was to change the way it powers up by making it increase for 4 tech instead of three like they did with fireball and add a stat requirement for the move Because not having a requirement for the PB is one of the main reasons it is so OP. It leave the player a lot of space to spam the stat it powers up with without consequence. The other reason it is so OP is because it only needs 3 tech to power up. by changing it from 3 to 4 tech it takes away from the overall power of this and make it more balanced then before.

< Message edited by Mother1 -- 9/16/2012 8:10:27 >

Epic	Post #: 293

9/16/2012 9:12:56

theholyfighter
Member

Yep after a few challenges and fights VS Caster TMs they are OPed...when having 110 hp 100 energy (or more) + MAX Reroute, Plasma Bolt, and Supercharge.

The issue of Strength Blood Mages is still there..

I know this sounds crazy, no trolling plse. How about replacing Cyber's Static Charge to Reroute and nerf BOTH Reroute and Blood Lust?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About Massive Strike...
1. Lower the bonus % damage it gives
2. Make it unusable on Ultimates

< Message edited by theholyfighter -- 9/16/2012 9:20:49 >

AQW

Epic

Post #: 294

9/16/2012 9:45:40

Mother1
Member

@ theholyfighter I see you understanding what I said about the OP ness of casters. What trans said before would help this since it would make the class a bit more balanced since they would have to invest points in strength which no caster I have fought ever seems to do.

As for Str Blood mages yes they are still there, but it isn't as bad as before. Remember before the nerf 99% of blood mages were the strength kind, now there are different kinds of blood mages which is a step in the right direction.

now on the the change with Cyber hunters. If they did get reroute it would need to be moved down to at least the 3rd teir of the skill tree if this was done. Having it where static would used to be doesn't seem fair since both TM and TLM have theirs in the 3rd tier. However, nerfing blood lust still wouldn't stop str BM in the least. while they would gain less health their attacks would still be devastating Plus it would also affect bounty hunters which despite many people saying they are OP are in fact the most balanced of all the classes. I say this because of all of the nerfs and buffs I have seen Bounty hunter is the only one that hasn't been giving a nerf or buff within months while every other class has received one or sometimes both.

Now for massive strike

For the first suggestion by how much? While I am still against the idea of nerfing this weapon since it like all the others with a special they are based on chance, I am willing to look at it from your point of view. I think nerfing the bonus by 40% would seem fair but then again some would say that isn't enough.

For the second one how about instead of making it unusable with ultimate how about making it unusable with cheap shot, bunker blaster, and Plasma cannon instead. If they did it the way you suggested it would still favor class with a higher chance to crit, plus non of the ultimate have a higher chance to crit them any other move. However if you make it unusable with those three attacks the weapon becomes more balanced since it wouldn't favor any class more then the other.

So what do you think?

Epic	Post #: 295

9/16/2012 10:04:20

The Astral Fury
Member

Can someone clear this up are Tech Mages OP.

AQW

Post #: 296

9/16/2012 10:20:44

Mother1
Member

It is the caster mages that are OP. Plasma bolt has no stat requirement so all casters need to do is spam the stat is powers up with without any restrictions. Plus since it powers up with every three tech players who abuse tech have a very powerful plasma bolt, and combine this with technician malfunction or both the results are devastating.

It is so powerful that it is two turning players or bring them close to death, and it is hurting the merc community since they have nothing to protect them from this in their skill tree since blood shield was remove for adrenaline, and the assault bot and rusted assault bots were nerfed because in the words of the staff 'this bot was too useful'.

adding a stat requirement would help reduce the pain of this, and increase the teach from 3 to 4 would help even more. It would give merc's and all the other classes who are suffering at the hands of the tech abusing casters a fighting chance but at the same time others are more concerned about the real low level mages (which are the only innocent mages since this is all the have at the lower levels)

Epic	Post #: 297

9/16/2012 11:49:05

The Astral Fury
Member

Lol, but even if it had a stat requirement they would still do the same amount of damage and Tech Mage can be pretty weak in some regards where it is strong in others than the other classes and plasma bolt is the ONE only thing that improves with tech damage wise (Except for SC which dosen't count IMO), it isn't like BM where they had Fire Ball to abuse strength and they had an even better power bludeon that they could futher abuse strength with blood lust TM has the one skill to help it win with Regrowth to go for a second time TM is balanced and dosen't need a nerf just buff the other classes so they can have an awesome build too.

Lol I fail to see how you think BH is not OP but TM is, TM could be balanced to UP right now and I'm sure the dev's agree.

< Message edited by dragonman111 -- 9/16/2012 11:58:04 >

AQW

Post #: 298

9/16/2012 12:18:42

veneeria
Member

Because you can still defeat an BH with a decent energy taking skill/ or with the str debuff or even with just plain an high heal+defenses. In the case of the Tech mages, they can just spam plasma bolt over and over again, using also that skill with rage.
Even if we take their energy away, they still can regen it and cast it again because of their high energy & reroute and low cost/low cooldown plasma bolt.

AQW

Epic

Post #: 299

9/16/2012 12:39:06

The Astral Fury
Member

Even so they they have BL and SC which is all they really all they need they to do massive amounts of damage with smokescreen and doing alot of damage and pretty much guarrenteed to never block and they regain alot of health from blood lust becasue they doing so much damage and if they abuse srength their damage will be off the charts even if you take some energy away they will have enough for smoke screen (In pretty much Every build) which is more than enough with their aux and gun too. So don't give me this "We'll they suck if you can drain their energy skill we'll no okay no they will still be OP).

< Message edited by dragonman111 -- 9/16/2012 12:40:24 >

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Post #: 300

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