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RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI

 
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10/1/2012 9:56:40   
Darkwing
Member

how to nerf DA for BM? make a DA that works with aux instead of gun. would nerf the strength builds but would buff other builds.

< Message edited by Darkwing -- 10/1/2012 9:57:40 >
Post #: 701
10/1/2012 10:04:56   
RageSoul
Member

Hey everyone , i have an idea on how to solve that STR build dilemma :

Current System : Total Primary Damage + % of Primary Weapon's Damage that the STR Skill converts into Bonus Damage

- This is actually the reason why some boss NPCs and classes seemed way too powerful : the STR skills' bonus damage now bases on Primary Weapons , so even if i deal below 20 , i would still carnage a player's health to oblivion .

Now , here's what i've come up today :

New System : 25% of the skill's progression as labeled by the skill's level of progression that bases on the Primary Weapon's Damage + % of the Conversion to Bonus Damage based on the skill's progression that relies on Damage dealt if it was a Strike + Damage Dealt Range .

- so for those who have been in ED for along time , you might find some parts of this new system familiar - yup , just like ol' Massacre and 'Zerk .

Now how does this work ? Here's an example :

2 Players fight , one's BH ( Str-Mass) and the other is TM ( non-Caster ) . Both are Level 35 , each has 90 Agility , and are Non-Varium , un-enhanced.

After a few turns of a sample battle , here's Situation # 1 : Player A gets First Strike . He Smokes Player B , which reduces , let's say , 36 DEX points , and Player B has 82 DEX , so he's left with 46 DEX but he happens to use P Armor , which is Imperial Mage P M ( 15 - 18 + 7 Defense ) , then Player B uses DM that gives a +16 Defense ( for 3 turns ) ( 15 - 18 + 7 + 16 Defense ). Then , Player B tries to survive , but Player A is ready to unleash his Level 5 Massacre . Player A received received 62 Total Damage from the previous turns , while Player B received 59 Total Damage but used a Level 3 Field Medic that heals 40 Health , making the damaged received from 59 to 19 .

b]Player A
Class : Bounty Hunter
Primary Damage : 16 - 20 + 35 ( Physical Damage ) ( 51 - 55 )

Player B
Class : Tech Mage
Defense : 15 - 18 + 7 + 16 ( 38 - 41 )

If Player A just uses Strike , then he has a Damage Dealt range of 10 - 17 , which BTW , he has a Level 8 Blood Lust so it heals him 3 - 4 Health . But he uses his Massacre so you guys would expect him to deal 44 - 51 Damage , but with the new system , this would be the "reality" :

Skill : Massacre
Level : 5
Progression : 96%
Damage Dealt Range ( if the move was a Strike ) = 10 - 17 Physical Damage ( 10 - 17 x 96% ) = +10 - 17 Damage
Primary Weapon's Damage : 35 ( so we'll be converting this into half of the skill's progression ) = 35 x ( 96% / 4 = 24% ) = + 8.75 = + 9

Now the damage Player A would deal will be 39 - 53 Physical Damage when he uses Massacre . Seems OPed? Well , that's because 1) Massacre is an "Ulti" and 2) It's at Level 5 . Also , if you're gonna look at it , it has a stronger progression compared to other skills.
But what about skills like 'Zerk and Double Strike ? Well don't worry , i've got just a thing on that ( BTW , the formula above was for Massacre ) :

% Damage Dealt Range based on skill's progression + 15% of the Primary Weapon's Damage

Situation 2 : STR BM vs. Technology Mercenary - BM has 80 Agility while the Merc has 100 Agility

STR BM has a Primary Damage of 20-24+35 ( Energy Damage) ( 55 - 59 ) and the Merc has a Defense of 21-26 + 1 + 7 ( + 6 ) ( 35 - 40 ) . The STR abuser is going to use a MAXED Bludgeon ( 47% ) , so instead of the usual formula , will use the new one instead .

Damage Dealt Range : 15 - 24 ( 15 - 24 * 47% ) = +8 - 12 Damage
Skill used : Bludgeon ( MAXED )
Primary Weapon Damage : 35 ( 35 x 15% ) = +6 Damage

The BM would deal 29 - 42 Physical damage

So apparently , they'll be forced to go "Strategy Mode" , but i'm not quite sure if this idea might alternate stuff instead of fixing , but this is the idea that i've made for STR-builds for now .

Questions :

Q : What if they use Rage?
A: Then it'll be like this now : 20% of the skill's Progression will be reduced ( in this case , 9.4% will be deducted ) but the Primary Weapon's Bonus Damage will be 35% of it . ( instead of + 6 , it'll be +13) , so here it'll be :

Damage Range : 15 - 24 ( 15 - 24 * 0.376 ) = + 6 - 10 , then ( 35 * 35% = + 12.25 = +13) so now it'll be 34 to 47 Damage instead .

Yeah , it's pretty long and kinda confusing , but here's a summary of that : Massacre and the other skills have their own formulas , but the Rage-stacking skills will go on a different formula when Rage is available and it was used with Rage.

Well , going offline and go to sleep .


< Message edited by Lord Aegis -- 10/1/2012 10:07:14 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 702
10/1/2012 10:30:58   
Renegade Reaper
Member

@darkwing very good idea to make BM even more OP. reflex boost and energy shield improve with support. making a new DA that improves aux damage would
make them insanely OP.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 703
10/1/2012 13:38:59   
zion
Member

Thought of something to make BM a bit more normal - move energy shield to middle column, move overload into top row, put assimilation into the overload spot, remove supercharge and put fireball down there as the ultimate move - obviously with more power and higher cost - should improve with str and be on par with massacre.
--Noiz
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 704
10/1/2012 17:07:51   
gangster a
Member

Increase the number of rounds till you get rage to 1 or 2. nerf skills like bludgeon and plasmabolt also cheapshot and buff weaker skills but no too much that its become OP again
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 705
10/1/2012 17:15:42   
Mother1
Member

Gk365 no. Fireball has been nerfed enough, and if you remove supercharge from bloodmage and make fireball their ultimate move you would be nerfing blood mages into the ground. We want them to be more balanced not underpowered and by making fireball their ultimate move you would be doing just that since fireball was nerfed.

Gangster a rage comes at different times for different builds it isn't all the same so I don't see how they could increase the turns a person needs to get rage without nerfing rage for all classes which wouldn't be fair in the least for the non overpowered classes. Also while there are some overpowered skills such as plasma bolt and plasma rain, Bludgeon and cheap shot are balanced and the only underpowered moves I can think off would be bloodshield and hybrid armor since both of these took a nerf thanks to the staff fixing a move bug that I bet no one really cared about.
Epic  Post #: 706
10/1/2012 17:18:41   
Ranloth
Banned


But.. rage depends on enemy's attack power and defence and vice versa as well as Support NOT amount of turns.. <_< Also why nerf Bludgeon? Why should TMs get a nerf for Bludgeon when they aren't abusing it? CS is fine since it's blockable and for the same reason, there's Bolt/Ball/Double Strike that does the same at lower/higher cost and lower/higher damage. Buff weaker skills? What are the weaker skills? How do you want to buff them? Give too much power and defence will be underrated and HP will be useless since battles will last even shorter due to too high amount of power; it devalues HP.

You know.. It's Balance Discussion but it's not ordering people around but perhaps suggesting how something can be changed? After all, changes are made depending on our views (many recent ones are) and saying "nerf X" and "buff Y" doesn't really help at all.
AQ Epic  Post #: 707
10/1/2012 17:37:22   
gangster a
Member

^ well rage should get nerfed somehow anyway hv u noticed it takes people 3 turns before rage and your ded wat fun is that and mother1 how can u say bludgeon is balanced let me guess cause ur a tm or nm if not then you can understand my reasons and also trans if no one says nerf this or buff this ecetra then n the game will gt worser and why do you be negative about all my. Comments trans?

< Message edited by gangster a -- 10/1/2012 17:39:21 >
AQ MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 708
10/1/2012 17:44:19   
Ranloth
Banned


quote:

buff weaker skills but no too much that its become OP again

quote:

if no one says nerf this or buff this ecetra then n the game will gt worser

You said buff weak skills but what are the weak skills? It'll get worse? Funnily enough, it isn't as bad unless you cannot create build or are F2P facing Varium. Of course there may be few builds that are too good but that's opinion based on people fighting 'em. Something like pre-nerf TLMs was truly OP for example. Sorry but balancing 6 classes is much harder than 3 and ordering people around doesn't help. Fact people will say "nerf this" or "buff that" is not helping since you aren't suggesting how it could be nerfed/buffed and why. It's discussion thread after all..

Also Rage IS to be used against tanks. You cannot deal good damage, cover yourself from most of enemy's and expect to play as usual. Rage is fine, just needs more emphasis on Support not a nerf.. And lastly, being biased with Bludgeon? TMs have the skill and they don't abuse it whilst nerf that you want is mainly targeted at BMs that abuse it. It's something called Reflex or Matrix that'll help you. With Fireball, it's both Physical.
AQ Epic  Post #: 709
10/1/2012 17:45:51   
The Astral Fury
Member

I don't think CH's are UP if you can get a "Certain" build going, I won't say what there pretty beast, I took out 3 level 35 BH's and am only level 32.
DF AQW  Post #: 710
10/1/2012 17:47:49   
Mother1
Member

Gangster A didn't you hear what trans and I said about rage? It is different for different builds and it depends on the type of build you are going against. I think you are thinking of str BM since they are the one's who would rage at turn 4 normally. Some support mercs with adrenaline rage at turn 3, but lost others rage on turns 5 and past. Also yes I am a TM but I was also a BM during the war and I used bludgeon with a str build. It does good damage yes but because it improves with str. But don't forget the move is blockable and as Trans said nerfing Bludgeon because of BM would also be a nerf to TM since they share the same skill. Also Bludgeon is only extremely strong with str builds any other build wouldn't get this kind of damage output. So I have to ask you do you think it is really fair to nerf skills that affect all builds and classes that use them just because one build is stronger using it then others?
Epic  Post #: 711
10/1/2012 17:52:16   
Stabilis
Member

Personally I believe that balance updates can be improved if we focus on weakening what is overpowered and not boosting what is not overpowered. If we agree to buffs then we might influence the next overpowered thing whatever it may be. However, if the effects of certain skills etc have close to no effect in battle (active skills that use a turn, otherwise may as well be stunned) although rare can still be considered. I perceive nerfs to be higher priority, because as stated buffing can conceive something overpowered out of practically nothing.

My class has too great influence on Strength, Blood Mages being one example could definitely apply Dexterity and Technology skills as there is a lack of said skills. 4/12 (33% should be 50%) skills and these skills are only offence. I understand that the following request is pressuring of Titan and Rabblefroth but increasing the capacity of the skill trees for slotting may benefit the task of balance as although more skills may bring more synergy potential- more skills also bring more options in battle. This is not just variety, but also to have more ways of handling other build types and skills.
AQ Epic  Post #: 712
10/1/2012 18:44:03   
kittycat
Member

the Blood Mage Tree has skills that are more powerful than its counterparts. Many players who make builds of any class sometimes emphasize more on power over accuracy or vice-versa. Plasma Cannon has a relatively low damage-scale, but periodically, it scores critical hits and will always ignore 20% resistance, unblockable, whereas Bludgeon with 100+ strength can deal up to 80+ damage on a Maximum level Bludgeon, but it has the risk of blocking, where the odds are random and unforeseen. The decision of power and accuracy, and the popularity and effectiveness of power undermines the effectiveness of accuracy. Since, Blood Mages have to be aggressive, Blood Mages should involve a minor backlash or reduction in accuracy to emphasize the decision between accuracy and power, but not affecting Tech Mages very strongly.

< Message edited by kittycat -- 10/1/2012 18:48:47 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 713
10/1/2012 20:04:44   
Rayman
Banned


hmmmmm
AQW Epic  Post #: 714
10/1/2012 20:05:49   
Bunshichi
Member

^ lol
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 715
10/1/2012 20:07:39   
Rayman
Banned


Hope we get balance Update soon i wonder what the staff will do.
AQW Epic  Post #: 716
10/1/2012 20:08:50   
Bunshichi
Member

hope that plasma bolt gets adjusted.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 717
10/1/2012 20:09:45   
Rayman
Banned


^
Not just 1 skill.
just one
skill isnt enought. we Need
Moar Nerf.
AQW Epic  Post #: 718
10/1/2012 20:25:21   
kittycat
Member

^: if you want more nerf, what are your thoughts about the following listed below?

Blood Mages: Skill Constraints: BL skill points + Bludgeon Skill Points = 11 or less, applies of Strength is absurd enough.
Tech Mages: Super Charge skill points + Plasma Bolt skill points = 14 or less, applies if Technician is absurd enough, Make Plasma on par, but 3-5 damage points higher due to lack of automatic HP replenishment
tactical: Field Medic + Frenzy skill points = 11 or less, applies if Agility is not 80 or lower.
Cyber/Bounty: Massacre drains 10% rage after use, postponing rage.
Mercenary: take out Double Strike or Berzerker in exchange for a skill that is able to reduce the effectiveness of a stat reduction, cannot be anywhere similar to Assault Bot's special.



< Message edited by kittycat -- 10/1/2012 20:30:27 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 719
10/1/2012 20:34:58   
doomturtle
Member

Nerf bloodlust, massacre and plasma bolt.
Bloodlust -3% so 20% at max
Massacre 20% less damage
Plasma bolt equal to fireball
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 720
10/1/2012 20:40:15   
kittycat
Member

Plasma Bolt should be on par, but the benefit of having Blood Lust for a caster move is unfair compared to its counterpart. Massacre shouldn't be debuffed at the 1st level, but other levels, it should be incremental and reduction in scaling by 2% for all levels. Blood Lust shouldn't be reduced in effectiveness too heavily.
AQ MQ  Post #: 721
10/1/2012 21:39:12   
Blaze The Aion Ender
Member

Nerf str
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 722
10/1/2012 21:42:26   
Rayman
Banned


^
Yes, we all want that.
AQW Epic  Post #: 723
10/1/2012 21:42:29   
Mecha Mario
Mechanized Plumber


Delete some spam posts, no need to spam if its almost 30 pages. Since its almost 30 pages, locking this up. New one coming soon.
DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 724
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