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RE: =ED= Weekend Progress Report - January 26, 2013

 
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1/30/2013 2:40:09   
  WhiteTiger

Majestic Feline of AQ3D & ED


@The ND Mallet Guy While I partly agree with what you said, I also partly disagree. Using the example you provided, knowing if your opponent had an energy draining core really wouldn't be useful if you wanted to counter it directly, but an energy booster isn't the only way to counter an energy drain.

Since the example you used is already in-game, I can speak from personal experience. Many times before, I have countered an energy draining move simply by altering my battle strategy. By knowing how your build works and what your opponent's build is like, you can pretty much get an approximation of when your opponent would drain your energy for maximum results. My build heavily relies on reroute and field medic, so I know my opponent would likely steal my energy when I needed a heal (around half health for me). Draining my energy on the first turn would be quite foolish because I'd likely get the energy back from reroute when I actually needed the heal. By knowing this, I can stay one step ahead of my opponent by using my heal earlier than I would usually, wasting some of it and not getting the maximum yield, but effectively getting a heal in that I still would've needed eventually, while also rendering my opponent's energy stealing skill useless (unless they wanted it waste it stealing some energy I would easily regain in a turn or two).

The scenario I gave is just one possibility in one build for one potential skill core, and I'm sure there are many others for other classes, builds, skill cores, etc. Granted, knowing if your opponent has a luck based skill core (such as massive strike) wouldn't necessarily be useful, since it's heavily reliant on luck, but for any skill cores that aren't completely random, there will mostly likely be a way you'd benefit from knowing it prior to when it is being used on you.

< Message edited by WhiteTiger -- 1/30/2013 2:45:39 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 126
1/30/2013 2:52:50   
TRizZzCENTRINO
Member

@above but really, there is nothing to stop them from energy draining you in the first place unless you have reroute or energy boosters to counter it, unable to see the skill core benefits you and your opponents, a equal playing field, both of you get the advantage, i would like the battles to be more realistic, and in reality, you can't exactly know what your opponent have in store for you, you just have to counter what they throw at you, it goes the same for your opponents.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 127
1/30/2013 8:05:36   
Stabilis
Member

Remorse,

I agree that not being able to see skill cores (or skill trees or even stats) adds to the unknown fate of the battle. However! If we choose to be able to see skill cores or any info on the opponent, we will never be able to compromise the random chance of battle mechanics (blocking, deflecting, going critical). If we put enough emphasis on knowing the tactical situation, we have to compensate the loss of randomness by raising the luck somewhere else (battle mechanics).

I will always encourage the principle of strategical ignorance (not knowing anything about the enemy or situation in general) to discourage the randomness in any player's actions. It is realistic too. Do we always know how many bombing runs it takes to cripple a village-sized base? Not always because someone may be underground. And that is the glory of ignorance (the state of not knowing), we are able to discover and learn over time.

If we emphasize the randomness of dashing into a hostile environment, we can reduce the fortune (or misfortune) of a surprise critical attack, as an example.
AQ Epic  Post #: 128
1/30/2013 8:53:26   
Blitzex/Sr. Zeph
Banned


Total %= 92.5

Hope they will make the 31th of January.
Epic  Post #: 129
1/30/2013 9:10:59   
Calogero
Member

they still need to do the testing which is still 0%

It won't be ready by January


_____________________________

Having a Signature is too mainstream
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 130
1/30/2013 9:18:17   
Tri Phoenix
Member

this are cool but is it enough to balance the game till january ends?
AQW Epic  Post #: 131
1/30/2013 9:26:44   
theholyfighter
Member

Yes, possible, if there are 40 days in January.
AQW Epic  Post #: 132
1/30/2013 10:27:31   
Drianx
Member

quote:

New Golden Yeti Tournament System 90%

Not sure why this has to drag back the initial Omega release. I mean the tournament will be released one or two weeks afterwards anyway.
AQW Epic  Post #: 133
1/30/2013 11:14:57   
Dimentic
Member

Two weeks?! They said few days which should be 1 week tops... I've already made my working schedule for February so I can have free time in the middle of the month ._.

_____________________________

"Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, the mind can achieve."
Dimentica!
Epic  Post #: 134
1/30/2013 11:35:50   
Remorse
Member

@ goony,

Thank you for finally being the one to answer this question for me.

As for the answer, I am accepting of the fact we will not be able to see them straight away, But i am glad that as the amount of skill ores increase you intend them to be seen.



Now, allow me to rebuttal against some arguments for being blind against cores.

First off NDs statement saying even if you know it won't change anything for example mana drains.

That is completely wrong IMO, If you don't know they have a mana draining skill core then you can not prepare for a possible mana drain.

Some example for when you might prepare and what you would do if you sore your opponent have a mana drain is:
-Make sure you use your energy up fast before being drained.
-Switch your usual builds strategy to another which may cost less mana.
-Energy drain them back also as to even out the playing field.
-etc.
EDIT: Also the situation white tiger explain is another good example.


Blind battle IMO, is not a "fun" mystery, basically you are unaware of strategies you need to do to win, therefore the game is less about smarts and strategy and therefore more about luck.



One of the things I like about this game is seeing a unique build in battle, then having to think of a unique way to counter it before it happens.

As blind battles stops this there also goes one of my favorite things about this game.


I can tell you now some people on my side are very strong on this topic, I would go to as far as quitting this game for good if say it became blind with LOTS of skill cores and basically luck battles.
Would the other-side go as far as to quit if battles weren't blind?

Also you can argue battles wont be all luck based but I can tell they will lack strategy because you cannot account for loads of skill cores, therefore you cannot possibly argue you can still be strategic by guessing what they have.




With regards to the poll etc,
Though this would be reasonable the problem is one side is going to lose, and if all battles were blind skill core wise I would quit, after a very hefty complaint.


What would be better if no sides lost, simply by adding a BLIND mode alternate to all normal modes.


This way those who like mystery as they call it, or luck based strategy-less battles as I call it can enjoy the blind version of the battle modes.



@ Trizz,

quote:

you can't exactly know what your opponent have in store for you, you just have to counter what they throw at you, it goes the same for your opponents.



I disagree,
I don't know about you, But I always know what my opponent is likely to do, I usually also determine what I think would be the best way for them to win and counter that before it happens.

I also releaise when my opponent could of done something better and take that to my advantage.


Waiting for things to occur before you counter it, no offense IMO is a really poor strategy.

Something I stopped doing by level 20 on my first account.


< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/30/2013 11:46:21 >
Epic  Post #: 135
1/30/2013 11:44:46   
Ranloth
Banned


quote:

What would be better if no sides lost, simply by adding a BLIND mode alternate to all normal modes.

That'd be pointless.. Two modes because someone doesn't like something? You find your way around it, that's all. By having a poll in-game to let players decide, it'd work out best and if people quit because their side didn't win in the poll then nothing would happen. Some people like luck and surprises, some don't but creating two modes just to suit their needs due to cores? Eh.

Using luck as excuse to everything isn't good either. There's x% chance you will hit and y% chance you will block. People see not blocking as nothing and blocking as luck. Wrong. Both are probability so luck is involved when you hit the enemy already.
But separate mode for "blind" battles? That's overkill. Community would decide what would be better, you cannot ask for more really. Database space isn't unlimited nor it could support such thing alongside other modes. It's a lot of coding involved for someone's personal preferences.

quote:

This way those who like mystery as they call it, or luck based strategyless battles as I call it can enjoy the blind version of the battle modes.

Even if you show cores, battles are luck based either way. You hit or miss, that's probability or as you call it, luck. You deflected? That's probability (luck). You cannot get rid off it nor Staff should go through many issues because luck is bad. It isn't. Luck makes things interesting if balanced. If you cannot see their cores, neither can they see yours. You have same advantage as them. :I
AQ Epic  Post #: 136
1/30/2013 11:51:27   
Remorse
Member

^ Im not referring to RNG at all.


Assume blocks, crits etc. didn't exist.

What I would call blind battles is luck because you happened to pick the strategy that wins despite not knowing because you cannot properly prepare for skill cores.


Also what is wrong with more battles modes??

People always ask for new modes, and blind and not blind are a MAJOR difference they would serve as great alternatives IMO.


As for the poll.

I fear it would mean blind battles wins because Im assuming that most of less experienced players would chose this as an option.

Perhaps if the poll was limited to players with more then 10,000 battles.
Epic  Post #: 137
1/30/2013 11:58:31   
Ranloth
Banned


But blocks, crits, deflections, etc., exist so I'm not gonna assume anything. Without them, it's sheer abuse of HP and Str for best survival and damage. First turn advantage = the winner. Wait, that's also luck.

And more battle modes? Nothing. But excluding one feature for one's sake isn't worth coding two battle modes for each one (total of 6). They can focus on making different (original) modes. They aren't "major" difference. You either see 4 active cores (4 passive can't do much since they are passive), or you don't. That's not a major difference. They can't see yours so it's the same type of advantage or rather none. Just like players who have enhanced items (both enhanced = no advantage).

quote:

I fear it would mean blind battles wins because Im assuming that most of less experienced players would chose this as an option.

Perhaps if the poll was limited to players with more then 10,000 battles.

No. No. No. Battles =/= experience. I have 5 chars with different classes but not enough wins for your suggestion. Does that make me too 'stupid' to vote despite having experience with all classes in-game? Some people value strategy in real-time PvP game, especially turn-based ones which I'm a fan of. Not knowing exactly what enemy will do next allows you to plan ahead and try to predict. Can't predict? Try to have some form of counter attack for whatever they plan next. Knowing their strategy isn't even strategical since you know what they will do unless they fool you.
AQ Epic  Post #: 138
1/30/2013 11:59:17   
Lycan.
Member

Epicduel should NOT have blind battles.
It should be a strategic game but guessing skill cores is not strategic, it is luck.
Epic  Post #: 139
1/30/2013 12:01:56   
Remorse
Member

^Hazza!

Another on my side.

Bout time, starting to feel overpowered lol.
Epic  Post #: 140
1/30/2013 12:03:14   
Ranloth
Banned


This isn't a war so you have people "on your side". This is a discussion but thanks for proving my point.
AQ Epic  Post #: 141
1/30/2013 12:09:31   
rene196
Member

I for one thing that the cores should NOT be implemented due to them being based on luck and somewhat "OP".
I think we would be better without them. Nuff sayd


Also, Have they started testing yet or not?
It's wednesday for christ sake
AQW Epic  Post #: 142
1/30/2013 12:13:26   
Remorse
Member

quote:

This isn't a war so you have people "on your side". This is a discussion but thanks for proving my point.


Never said it was a war, Simply glad someone else agrees with me.

Plus what may I ask is your point, that I somehow proved for you in that quote?


Why do you have to twist what people say as being wrong simply so they get angry at you?


< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/30/2013 12:14:51 >
Epic  Post #: 143
1/30/2013 12:25:28   
Drianx
Member

@Remorse
I'm in for your cause too.
And also for seeing what robo does the enemy have equipped. Right now seeing only 'Physical damage' is not much of a clue.
AQW Epic  Post #: 144
1/30/2013 12:26:17   
master x guardian
Member

According to the AQ3D Design Notes:
quote:

EpicDuel is REALLY close to launching their Omega release.

So hopefully end of next week at the latest, just in time for Chinese New Year :)

_____________________________

YouTube Channel - shadelord43485
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 145
1/30/2013 12:29:51   
Remorse
Member

@Drianx,


Since technically robot specials are being considered cores soon, they would also be included.

But if not then definitely I 100% agree with you, especially since the robot amount will increase drastically faster according to titans new code layout.

< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/30/2013 12:30:53 >
Epic  Post #: 146
1/30/2013 12:40:55   
Mother1
Member

@ remorse

The reason goony said there would be an in game poll is because not everyone agree's with wanting the cores visible. While some people like you want luck to be solely limited to blocks, stun, crits, and deflections (since any other luck in your opinion is negative luck) there are others who enjoy surprise and like having an ace in the hole to use.

We are not all the same Remorse and while some will agree with you there will be others who bump head with you. Your idea of fun would destroy someone else's idea of fun.

Epic  Post #: 147
1/30/2013 12:43:04   
the final hour
Banned


i agree with remorse too how do you stratergize to win a game if you cant see the cards your opponent is holding .

i also dont buy Nds argument if you see emp their isnt nothing you can do about it .as many others have mentioned .


< Message edited by the final hour -- 1/30/2013 12:55:55 >
Post #: 148
1/30/2013 12:46:17   
Remorse
Member

@ Mother1

I Know this is the case mother,

That is why I suggested separate battle modes for both.


That way both sides can be happy.




Those who think skill cores should be blind then consider this,

Would you like it if all your opponents skills were hidden??

Because all your arguments for blind battles would also support that scenario.


< Message edited by Remorse -- 1/30/2013 12:51:39 >
Epic  Post #: 149
1/30/2013 12:48:30   
Mother1
Member

@ the final hour

while you may not buy it can you stop the frost effect from happening? No some things in game you just can't counter. can you counter massive strike if someone crits? No you can't counter that. Can you counter thorn assault if the attack comes out? No. That is what ND was talking about. Yes we can counter some things if we have a clue of what is coming, however not everything in game can be counter especially they are effects like this one.
Epic  Post #: 150
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