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RE: =AQ3D= Feedback Thread

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1/11/2016 18:49:55   
Rezilia
Member

quote:

how do they connect it to these paths and allow you to walk to the next area? :S

also if these paths just keep on going won't it give the devs even more work, to add in all these paths and separate storylines?


Yeah... I should probably just post a picture.

http://i.imgur.com/ozr6Bd7.png

That should explain it.
DF AQW  Post #: 301
1/11/2016 18:52:55   
speedmeteor101
Member

Yeah a lot like Df's quests
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 302
1/11/2016 18:54:04   
Rezilia
Member

^ Exactly. :)
DF AQW  Post #: 303
1/11/2016 19:40:40   
Frosthowl
Member

quote:

We are still working on some things. It takes us a very long time to produce a single area in AQ3D compared to our other games so we want people to spend a lot of time there. That means either a ton of quests, quests with a ton of objectives, or quests with few but difficult to obtain objectives. If you blew through an area in AQ3D as fast as people do AQW releases, (average 15 mins) then AQ3D would run out of content FAR too quickly and we could never produce it fast enough to give people something to do and keep them interested. On the other hand, we don't want you to get sick of an area (as they are necessarily pretty small) so we have added some easy quests to collect clickies or find a single NPC or deliver items to an area as a relief from grinding. We think that exploration achievements and side quests and cutscenes and content that we plan on eventually adding as we refine the areas will also help keep things lively. We hope. Open to suggestion on how to make people WANT to spend more time in smaller areas.


Ugh, so basically they're making grindy quests just to keep us playing :/ I'd rather have less stuff to do that's really fun, than more stuff to do that's really boring. I just don't get this at all. Why even even make the game if you don't have the resources to make it fun?
Post #: 304
1/11/2016 20:22:23   
Anvos
Member

^^^

The way AE tends to handle their Alphas and Betas isn't in the market general way recently where they are glorified early releases to just judge feedback, where you should expect everything to roughly be the same at the end. If I remember correctly the story stuff really didn't come until mid beta or somewhere around there in DF and MQ.

Complicated/story quests I would say are likely further down the road, as the main objective of the game now is still development of core elements from how I see it.

< Message edited by Anvos -- 1/11/2016 20:27:33 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 305
1/11/2016 23:39:28   
speedmeteor101
Member

Yes.

quote:

We think that exploration achievements and side quests and cutscenes and content that we plan on eventually adding as we refine the areas will also help keep things lively.


@Frosthowl and @Anvos

That's right. That means once closed or open beta is over we'll still probably have these same boring, grindy quests at the game release, most likely or hopefully at open beta; but over time we're supposed to get more features as the devs add new areas and refine old ones.

quote:

Open to suggestion on how to make people WANT to spend more time in smaller areas.
I know this is something meant to happen over time, so I got ideas! (If you want the main idea of what I'm going to say and no examples it's at the bottom)

take this image @ckdragonck made http://i.imgur.com/ozr6Bd7.png Now take into account that AE doesn't have as much time to make full blown areas very quickly, while dungeons may be quicker. So really the answer to how to make people want to spend more time in smaller areas would be more dungeon exits. And lots of cutscenes and small puzzles/interactives- even inside of dungeons. We know this will take more time, but with multiple people animating [maybe snag from another game team?] and less extravagant dungeons (we don't need decor) this can get cranked out a lot faster. I'll say it again at the end.

So let's say those paths in the picture above without dead ends may have dead ends. Maybe a couple of them lead to an area with no NPC and a natural dungeon... A cave, a Spider tunnel.... something like that. Then another one of those paths could end at a tent and an NPC outside. He has four quests. One of them is a small reward for finding the Natural cave [dungeon] somewhere and clearing out the spider tunnel. And then get this! After you battle your way to the boss, how about a cutscene where you see a spider wrapping up people and then your next mission/quest obj is to defeat the spider once so you can solve a puzzle to free the other explorers/ NPC adventurers. Kinda like DF's lock-picking "Jab, wiggle, nick, tap." How about for the spider web "Tug, Cut, pull, snip." This is the creative stuff we want from AE (I took these ideas from other AE games) so if you make a simple dungeon with dirt walls and a windy maze path just pop in monsters. and checkpoints so it's not super easy to get to the boss. If certain parts of the dungeon are "locked" until you reach the checkpoints, a player would be forced to battle all of the monsters and reach the next part of the dungeon (with it being divided into many smaller segments). So you can't run all the way through, but if you die you can pick up where you left off, like I said before (like if 3 monsters spawn before a checkpoint, you have to kill 3 for the next checkpoint to be unlocked). Also do note: I'd prefer a longer dungeon with shorter ceilings and closer walls than a tall short dungeon. You could probably take advantage of this to make it windy, have multiple floors and slip monsters in a way to where you're battling towards a goal.

The Next kinda side-quest/dungeon (DF style) we would get from an NPC is one where you click "quest" and you are 'teleported' to a dungeon. (Considering there's a side-quests button for quests you can do as many times as you want in NPC dialogue) Let's say you're in Doomwood and that Artix by the tent says "on that island across the water, there's a haunted castle, and at the top there's a key, that the undead king has. Bring it here so I can open this chest and I'll have some good gold for you." Then basically repeat the "Haunted Castle" quest from the necropolis in DF (here http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=10584200 and video here because listenonrepeat is broken) but make it 3d and multiplayer. We don't care if it's all identical rooms with a chair and bookshelf in a different place, so ideally, you'd be able to paint one room or a whole hall with a repeating brick pattern and maybe a couple of identical explorable rooms (rooms not mandatory :P) and crank out a relatively quick dungeon. Just Repeating brick walls w/ torches, two sets of stairs another hall and a king's room. If you keep it simple throw in a couple small cutscenes and you have a good dungeon. The areas we have look like the were all made with every little detail in mind, so I'm guessing that's what took them so long. Simple dungeons could hopefully take a week or two, so month after month you slowly rack up dungeons that will keep players from getting bored as they can play them over and over and have different ones to choose from. Maybe even as features get added, there will be some hidden places in a dungeon to explore. And like other players said, random items as a quest reward for just finishing a dungeon, sometimes. Edit: Now that I think about it won't we be getting daily dungeons? Maybe a few could be made before the daily dungeons really start and then they get worked into the area. If there are daily dungeons, maybe you guys (AE) were already were planning to crankem out quickly. Meh, whatever :P

Also idk if this is possible, but if you think up a way to do short, randomized dungeons with the same idea as above, that would be KILLER for aq3d and just amazing. It might not be possible, but the way I see it, it would be like the devs already have 'template' chunks/rooms/checkpoints for a dungeon and they spawn in a logical/random order, like in DragonFable. Maybe the dungeon would normally take 10-15 minutes to complete, so you put a 30 minute timer (also a timer in the corner of the dungeon screen) before a reset (where the players are kicked and new templates/sets of rooms are loaded). Then when it's time to kick out the players (in the last 30 seconds, maybe) the players will instantly die and a message displays like "I don't feel so well" and an iconic "ghost of the dungeons" flashes on the screen. Then instead of teleporting back to spawn point when they die, they go to the NPC or front of the dungeon, and must wait for the timer to reset when the new version of the dungeon is ready. If you could do something similar to this, like maybe every server reset the randomized dungeons changed, that would even be good enough. That may also mean randomized rewards at the end of the quest, a randomized chest with a random shop, many things.... but that would definitely keep players coming back to a certain area. For that "new" dungeon. Then maybe certain configurations would have a low 'loading-rate' and a player would be lucky to come at the right (random) time of the day or week to find a certain shop in a dungeon that may sell... 2 free potions, a 5k gold bonus chest, or a rare-ish pet or something. Just a real nice 'weapon' (figuratively)/feature to get us coming back.

I'll say it again: I think that's the way you make small areas more attractive. Give them multiple simple, easy-to-make, dungeons to play over and over possibly from exploring or from an NPC. Give these dungeons and areas some cutscenes and some interactives/puzzles (maybe parkour) and you've got a like-able area.

< Message edited by speedmeteor101 -- 1/13/2016 8:51:54 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 306
1/11/2016 23:44:04   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 If they want us to spend a lot of time in one place, then their best bet is to make those areas really big and with a lot of activities.

"We spent a lot of time in this cramped little patch of forest so you have to spend 2 hours in it killing X monsters" is an absolutely disgusting outlook. At least make them big and have a variety of quests, otherwise it's just filler content and the player won't feel like they're doing anything productive. That they're coming out and saying "Most quests will be 'kill X monsters'" Makes me less excited. It's good in these kinds of games to take breaks from constant fighting and perform some sort of interesting/entertaining task or get told a story.

And no, 'Find an NPC' or 'Click on these things' isn't always enough. Exploration is what people will do anyways, they need to be doing SOMETHING. When I did the 'click on trees' quest I wanted to fall asleep because I was doing nothing interesting or productive. I was going through trees to find something for someone I don't care about yet. If there is going to be fetch quests and 'click on the things' then that's fine, but don't be so blatant about it. Instead of characters outright walking up to a glowy thing and clicking on it, have some degree of illusion that they're doing something interesting.
What WoW and also every Point and Click game ever does to account for that a lot of what's going on is the player clicking on objects, why will apply sufficient context and even feed some story as you're doing it to make it feel like you're uncovering something and generally being productive. There were a couple of times in WoW where you would go to do a simple task and then you would find yourself in a barrel eavesdropping on a two-headed ogre talking with a shadowy figure about something sinister. Heck, maybe even the quest is 'eavesdrop on X and Y' and the idea of the quest is to find the best hiding spot, and if you're not found then you hear the entire story but if you are then the people you're eavesdropping on will flee and you'll have to fight their henchmen.

If it sounds like too much work then you're not putting the $300,000+ you got to good use.

< Message edited by Cpeepers -- 1/11/2016 23:57:00 >
Post #: 307
1/11/2016 23:53:44   
speedmeteor101
Member

It'll feel more like dragonfable with dungeons like those though. The phones can't handle big areas, so the quests don't have too much hope.

Dungeons are more linear/path-based so you can actually feel like you're moving to a goal and instead of spending 2 hours killing 'X' monsters you can do a side-quest/dungeon and "kill the giant spider at the end of the tunnel." They can keep the "crappier" areas wth kill 'X' monster quests, but give us the option to have dungeons where we actually have a chance to reach a goal. Yeah, I liked how in dragonfable, there was lock-picking involved like I said in my post above. Also we're bound to get other activities like fishing anyways so you won't always be battling your life away.

And as for more involved quests like that, that would be a great idea. Then we could use the "parkour" aspect to get somewhere then we get a cutscene where we're required to complete a timed objective similar to the first. Like the ogre says "I hid the chest under a giant brown" and then the player hears a cough so that's the only hint before more rambling. If the player misses that, he has to either do the parkour challenge again to see the cutscene again or rely on luck. Then you have say 60 seconds to find the chest or the Ogre spawns near the chest and would take a lvl15 to defeat in a lvl 5 zone. That is the kinda thing I would like to see and maybe what you're going for. I think that'd be great.

< Message edited by speedmeteor101 -- 1/12/2016 0:10:37 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 308
1/12/2016 0:06:29   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 I don't see why there can't be a happy medium like in every game ever. The outside is big and vast, while dungeons and caves are cramped and packed with monsters you won't find outside. Outside, big. Dungeon, small.

I dunno what you're talking about with iPads and tablets not being able to handle big areas. There are a bunch of people who have gotten Metal Gear Solid V: Phantom Pain to run on their tablets with little problems. They can handle the new Runescape with no problem, and that game's areas and outside are huge. If you're talking about actual phones, then AE should not be letting tiny cellphones decide the destiny of their game that is getting released on PCs. That does nothing but limit what they can do for little benefit.

Additionally, if it is getting released on mobile devices then that's reason for their quests and areas to be more exciting, not more tedious and "PLEASE STAY IN THIS ONE PLACE WE WORKED REALLY HARD ON IT"-y. Why do people play games on their phones or tablets? To keep them occupied and to stop them from getting bored. How the heck will a game ridden with "kill a bunch of these creatures you've already killed a bunch of" do that? What is the fun of a game in a progression-based genre if the progression is so grindy and slow?
Post #: 309
1/12/2016 0:14:46   
speedmeteor101
Member

They can't handle big areas because on iphone 4s, at least, the lowest supported device, it's like there's a certain amount of data that can load before a crash or something. Every item, animation, environmental aspect, texture, and whatever else takes up a certain amount of data. So an area with lots of monsters would be smaller and vise versa. And don't worry, you don't have to even guess whether or not that's true. They currently test on these mobiles, so they know, already.

So ideally, the dungeon would be broken up into multiple smaller zones where you have to defeat all the monsters in that zone before progressing. But Battleon is about as big of a zone that we will see, considering the zone would be decorated just as much.

< Message edited by speedmeteor101 -- 1/12/2016 0:17:38 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 310
1/12/2016 0:31:35   
Frosthowl
Member

quote:

Also we're bound to get other activities like fishing anyways so you won't always be battling your life away.


What is it with MMOs and fishing? xD

I would love to see dungeons done the way they are in Dragonfable. Yeah, you're basically doing the same thing with the same monsters; but at least you get a random weapon at the end. It made each time you did it feel like there was potential to accomplish something. Each little dungeon area felt unique and interesting. I loved the launch of Mechquest :D It was super exiting being on the ship just waiting to get to the planet. It was small, but it was polished. It was repetitive, but there was story, varying goals, and stuff to earn.

I may be a bit biased. I love AQ, DF, and MQ. I really haven't cared for AQWs or much else that AE has produced since Mechquest to be honest. I think the team is brilliant, but it just feels like the games they make now are more geared towards making money and less about fun and telling a great story. I guess AQ3D is looking a little to much like AQWs for my comfort haha

Reading some of Artix's early design notes for Dragonfable still inspire me to this day :) I know this new game is in its infancy, but if its design is to be grindy, my feedback is that that is a terrible idea. Not much else to say.
Post #: 311
1/12/2016 0:40:47   
speedmeteor101
Member

Hate to waste forum space, but all I can say is Agreed ^ in EVERY WAY...

I just assumed fishing because of Dragonfable really :P
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 312
1/12/2016 1:21:11   
Rezilia
Member

Exactly, Frost. :)

Creepers, I'd suggest looking up the gameplay for Kritika: White Knights and Arcane Legends if you want to see what exactly Android phones and iPhones can handle. Those games have much more resources put into them than the AE team can give, are made by developers already highly experienced in smartphone gaming, and yet most smartphones can still only play them in very low quality.

AE's decision to limit each area in AQ3D was a wise one, as it means most smartphones can run AQ3D at high quality with little lag.
DF AQW  Post #: 313
1/12/2016 2:41:26   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 My point is I am not of the belief that 'will it run on iphones' should come into the development of an MMORPG. It is a genre with a lot of potential and trying to make a game that most people will play on PC and tablets work on tiny phones with small screens isn't a good call if you ask me.

I do not doubt that Smartphones are butts when it comes to any degree of hardware-intensive gaming, no one needs to try and convince me otherwise. With that said, why the heck would it matter so much in a game like this? Why should the game suffer just so someone plays AQ3D on his phone instead of Candy Crush or a lame Pokemon ripoff from China?

Random rewards at the end of a dungeon would be fine, but the 'raids' and the quests should be two different beasts and should operate differently. Dungeons and raids for better gear, quests to level up and to have fun.

I understand that some people want AQ3D to be a 'lunch break game', but that's not what MMORPGs are. They are the kind of game you play after work to unwind and let your muscle memory take over for you. It is a time and stress killer, not a distraction or something you hop in and out of.

< Message edited by Cpeepers -- 1/12/2016 3:04:56 >
Post #: 314
1/12/2016 7:46:26   
Rezilia
Member

While I do agree with you that MMOs aren't meant to be short bursts of fun, I've personally played many Android MMOs and I can say for certain that they have lasting and healthy communities that treat the game as an MMO despite it being on smartphones and tablets. When they're done right, they function just as well as PC MMOs.
DF AQW  Post #: 315
1/12/2016 8:06:53   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 Though I'm sure the communities would be fine, those MMOs were made for android devices in mind and their design was based around that, which is cool.

AQ3D looks like they're trying to go for PC but are letting portable devices limit them. That's not good. Make a game as good as you can with the tools you are given. Don't let yourself make a worse game to appeal to a minority.

http://juicybeast.com/2016/01/releasing-an-indie-game-on-3-consoles-at-once-and-failing-financially/

Here's a really interesting and educational article I stumbled upon. I encourage the people working on AQ3D to read it, and there's a tl;dr at the end for those strapped for time.
Post #: 316
1/12/2016 11:22:54   
LyRein
Member

@ckdragonck

all i have to say is no
Post #: 317
1/12/2016 11:41:42   
Frosthowl
Member

Arguing whether AQ3D should or should not be made for mobile devices is kinda pointless now. That's the game they've been advertising, so its not like you didn't know what you were signing up for haha As far as suggestions go its probably better to try to come up with ways to make this mobile MMO as good as it can be, rather than trying to change it at a fundamental level. My argument has been that I don't think it needs to be as grindy as it is. I think some of you already have some good points and ideas to fix that :)

( I agree I would probs like AQ3D more if it wasn't for mobile devices, but that doesn't help AE with their game. )
Post #: 318
1/12/2016 11:48:01   
LyRein
Member

@above

the sad part comes when they have all these ideas then come to DNs and admit they knew the limitations of mobile.

still confuses me...
Post #: 319
1/12/2016 12:06:58   
speedmeteor101
Member

@LyRein

Yeah. In the beginning, they were like "We want this and this and this" possibly before they really tested the limitations of the low-end mobiles. Now they're like, "we'll start with this, and maybe over time we might get this and this and this."

@Frosthowl

quote:

My argument has been that I don't think it needs to be as grindy as it is. I think some of you already have some good points and ideas to fix that :)


Same point here. My only concern is that even our FIXES could be, somehow, limited by the mobile.... but I think the creation of cutscenes could really change stuff up and give us more to work with along with some of the stuff we already have if you look at Cpeeper's good ideas about the eavesdropping quest. Well, if a dev sees these fixes we may or may not get a response or it could all be up in the air. We'll just have to see.

< Message edited by speedmeteor101 -- 1/12/2016 12:10:38 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 320
1/12/2016 12:26:22   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 Not many people are going to cry if they decide to just focus on the PC aspects. Who cares about the people with smartphones. The high-end games aren't made for them and the ones that are are usually just glorified timewasters.

That said, I know that AE have said that it's going to be a game with a degree of mobile focus. I am saying that's a horrible idea. They now have a budget to get really creative and all that 'wait what about the PHONES' is going to do is limit their creativity and especially limit all the cool technical things they can do. If they want to make a game that can act as another cashcow then I suppose a mobile focus might be okay?? Maybe?? People spend a lot of money on saving time with mobile because they will only play for a short amount of time. That said, an MMO takes a degree of commitment and if the world has any scale to it it will take a fair amount of people 10-20 minutes to get to the place that they need to do their quest in the first place.

And if they really do want to have quests mostly be 'do the same thing repeatedly' then why does mobile seem like the place for that? The best selling games on mobile are puzzle games and simple games with satisfying and rapid-fire gratification. Angry Birds, Fruit Ninja, stuff like that. The people who would play an MMO on their phones would play it on a PC too.

If this is the course that AE really wants to take then I sure as heck can't change it. But... Why? Do they think that the people on mobile don't have other MMOs on mobile that they've sunk more time into? If they downgrade their game and release it on PC then no one's going to stop playing WoW or FF14 for it because it's half the game that something on PC should be. If they keep a mostly tedious quest structure then people on mobile aren't going to want to play it because they want rapid-fire fun and gratification. If the areas are tiny and cramped then the people on PC are going to compare it side-by-side with the other MMOs they play on PC and they'll think the (actually very vast) world of AQ is tiny and that everything is too close together, giving the world no scale.

That said, these are just suggestions but I'm pretty disappointed with their current line of thought with this game. I don't want to call this game a cynical cash in, but if their focus is really on getting a big mobile market and not on making an actually good game that takes advantage of all the resources at their disposal now, then I don't know what else to call it. The fact that 'alpha' and 'beta' aren't even going to last that long and it seems a little like a rush to release it and start monetizing it to me doesn't help.

If they wanted a rapid-fire gratification game for the mobile that still functioned on PC, they should have just started remaking AQ classic in 3D and rebalanced/redesigned it, along with throwing in a bunch of new equipment and mechanics. Made it like a Final Fantasy game and took advantage of the 3D angles to do cool dynamic camera stuffs that show off the detail of the model, and reimagined a lot of the flashy attacks in 3 dimensions.
They could get away with doing the tiny maps they so desperately want to do (just need to make a bunch of fight locales and some dungeons really) and can go back to the old quests in AQ and filled in the plot holes and solidified the characters and their motivations. I would play the heck out of that, I'd play that a lot more than "not-WoW".

< Message edited by Cpeepers -- 1/12/2016 12:31:29 >
Post #: 321
1/12/2016 13:11:45   
LyRein
Member

@above

would've been so awesome to have an AE brawler with the Battlegem characters on mobile instead lol

Post #: 322
1/12/2016 15:20:09   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 Additionally, most high end mobile games will cost at most $50,000-$70,000 to make. AE getting $300,000 seems to me like they just want to make a cheap mobile MMO and then take the rest of the money and run.
If they were taking advantage of their tech I could understand. But if phones are coming into the equation then that's clearly not the case.

Honestly, I don't mean to make assumptions but this just seems so greedy and exploitative. Getting all this money from people who have faith in them and the project and then intentionally limiting their game. It feels so... gross.
Post #: 323
1/12/2016 15:36:11   
Frosthowl
Member

quote:

Honestly, I don't mean to make assumptions but this just seems so greedy and exploitative. Getting all this money from people who have faith in them and the project and then intentionally limiting their game. It feels so... gross.


I don't think AE has ever been like that. They are a smaller studio, and this is there first dive into 3D coding and design. It's going to take them time to make any improvements.

THE GAME IS GOING TO BE ON PHONES! haha It's to late to change that :p

So if you have feedback (as I already said) then give some good ideas on how to make a really great mobile MMO. If you hate that idea so much... then don't play it, and don't pay for it.
Post #: 324
1/12/2016 16:59:32   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 Telling me that it's going to be on phones over and over does nothing. I already know. And honestly my best suggestion for this to be a good mobile MMO is for it to not be one.

Believe it or not, I do like AE and I would like to see this game become good. That they are basically pidgeonholing themselves into making it mediocre at best isn't great.

And I don't really care about it being their first dive into it. If everyone's first attempt at something big cost them an extra $240,000, even with a decently sized team with experienced people, then no one who wasn't rich would ever make ANYTHING new. I don't know why they saw fit to ask for so much if the plan was to water it down for phones. Are you sure that doesn't come off as the least bit exploitative to you?

"Just don't play it" is a cop-out answer. I backed this game and am giving feedback because I want it to be good. And it still can be good. But what Artix needs to do is put their huge budget to use and actually make something of the best quality they can instead of pocketing, what, 60% of their 'budget'?
Even if it became the best game ever I still probably wouldn't play it. MMOs typically aren't my thing, and with Street Fighter 5 around the corner I probably won't be playing many other games. I still want this to be a good game though. I played AQ for years, I LIKE AE and I want them to succeed when they put their heart into a project. But I am very skeptical with some of these decisions they're making, and I don't know how you could make a mobile MMORPG compete with the others that have already been established or how you could make it still play well compared to the other MMORPGs that are on PC.
Can you? I can't. I can think of ways that it could be sort of kind of comparable to them or how it could be different from them, but even on the same level as them? When their alpha/beta is gonna last like 6 months and these other MMOs have had years of content patches? The only thing I can think of is that they spend their budget on pure content and give a huge amount of things to do from day 1 with a lot of variety so people will be blown away by the world and just how much they can do in it.

Otherwise, AE needs to keep in mind that while some of their audience will be new to MMOs, a fair amount of people will have to want to switch from their current games to this one.

< Message edited by Cpeepers -- 1/12/2016 17:10:06 >
Post #: 325
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