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1/12/2016 17:53:08   
Anvos
Member

I'm not really sure why people are saying just because there is going to be a phone version that the pc and tablet versions will be the same quality as the phone version, even in the console to pc port thing it is a common thing for the pc version to have higher end specs available.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 326
1/12/2016 18:03:04   
speedmeteor101
Member

I've already seen cysero reply to this; lemme give you guys HIS response.

quote:

SlyCooperFan1 • 7 days ago
That draw distance is really scaring me with the environment pop-in happening in the video. It makes sense for the mobile builds, but for the PC builds will we be able to change how far the draw distance goes? I'd like to push that to the max.
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Cysero SlyCooperFan1 • 7 days ago
Honestly probably not but that might happen, depending on how things go. We would LOVE to make a PC/Steam/Windows10 version with higher rez textures, higher poly models, farther culling distances, more ground clutter and nice effects like realtime shadows but we may not have the time or resources. That would be, essentially, making a separate game right next to the mobile version.
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SlyCooperFan1 Cysero • 7 days ago
The problem is, PC players have a certain expectation on what the game's options allow for, and expectations for certain degrees of performance. The textures and models being low-res doesn't mean much - Sky Rogue, for example, is as minimalist as you can get but it's one of my favorite PC air combat games. But if you guys can code an intricate-enough options menu into the game for the PC builds, specifically for things like framerate, FOV, draw distance, etc. it would go over really well with the community on Steam. The playerbase on that platform is a unique one in their demands - not having options like those, especially in a 3D game where you're competing with other F2P 3D MMORPGs, wouldn't be met with good reception at all.

EDIT: That options menu could also be used on the mobile builds to help some setups run the game smoother by disabling/lowering some options, as well.
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Cysero SlyCooperFan1 • 7 days ago
All true, but again. it's not as simple as putting sliders in the menu. We'd have to make new models for everything, export or repaint new textures for everything, literally, everything in the game and that's just the start. We can't just make an awesome version and turn it down on the mobile version. All the high rez maps and models and textures and other options would still be there bloating the file size of the downloaded client on mobile. It really would be making a whole new game side by side with the version that we're working on now. We simply don't have the resources or time.
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SlyCooperFan1 Cysero • 7 days ago
Why would you have to make new models and textures for something like draw distance or field of view?
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Cysero SlyCooperFan1 • 7 days ago
For that it doesn't. I was speaking more to the expectations of PC gamers comment. Culling distances and draw distance are entirely determined by performance and that might be something that we could do simply bit we'd have to alter some things about the maps. They are small, as it stands, if you get up high enough in Greenguard you can see all of the outside edges. Frankly, they are small enough that seeing increased draw distances wouldn't do much other than ruin any illusion of scale that we've managed to pull off so far.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 327
1/12/2016 19:30:01   
Rezilia
Member

quote:

I'm not really sure why people are saying just because there is going to be a phone version that the pc and tablet versions will be the same quality as the phone version, even in the console to pc port thing it is a common thing for the pc version to have higher end specs available.


To summarize what speed quoted Cysero saying, the game only has one graphics setting, period. In order to limit the file size in the game (which takes up space on the device and runs the battery down more when playing), the devs made the graphics setting fit mobile specifically while retaining its PC origin (unlike console games which get rid of the PC origin and thus have terrible PC "ports" even though the games are made on PC).

In order to implement your idea, the devs would have to make two completely separate versions of the game that ran on the same server. This is possible but they don't have the resources for it, and they definitely wouldn't since the second version would require far, far more time and resources than the current version; if all they had to do was downgrade, it wouldn't be as bad, but that's not the case.
DF AQW  Post #: 328
1/12/2016 20:22:07   
OnuaNuva
Member

quote:


In order to implement your idea, the devs would have to make two completely separate versions of the game that ran on the same server. This is possible but they don't have the resources for it, and they definitely wouldn't since the second version would require far, far more time and resources than the current version; if all they had to do was downgrade, it wouldn't be as bad, but that's not the case.


Models, draw distance, textures, etc... are all handled locally in nearly every game. With multiplayer, the server tells your computer the coordinates and orientations of the players/monsters/other entities, their stats, and a few other variables. It tells you that 'Archfighter 213' is wearing a 'Golden Helm', and doing a 'tornado slash' but it doesn't tell your computer what a 'golden helm' looks like, or what the 'tornado slash' animation looks like. That data is already local.

quote:

We can't just make an awesome version and turn it down on the mobile version. All the high rez maps and models and textures and other options would still be there bloating the file size of the downloaded client on mobile.


But Cysero knows more about game development than I do. I'll be honest though, I don't understand why it would be impossible to offer graphical upgrades as a separate download for the PC version, like Skyrim's HD texture download pack.

I'm assuming here that the Steam version wouldn't redownload the game assets every time you load it, like the current web version does.

Actually, as long as textures/models are stored locally, it theoretically wouldn't be that difficult to mod-in better looking stuff, right? WoW has the 'Higher than Ultra' graphic mod, and Neverwinter has a whole bunch of things on Nexusmods.

< Message edited by OnuaNuva -- 1/12/2016 20:23:01 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 329
1/12/2016 20:52:13   
Rezilia
Member

quote:

Models, draw distance, textures, etc... are all handled locally in nearly every game. With multiplayer, the server tells your computer the coordinates and orientations of the players/monsters/other entities, their stats, and a few other variables. It tells you that 'Archfighter 213' is wearing a 'Golden Helm', and doing a 'tornado slash' but it doesn't tell your computer what a 'golden helm' looks like, or what the 'tornado slash' animation looks like. That data is already local.


Yes, that's what I was saying, that the two versions could run on the same server. The problem is the creation of a second version itself, since they'd have to make a second version with its own filesizes in order to not compromise the filesizes in the current version.

quote:

I don't understand why it would be impossible to offer graphical upgrades as a separate download for the PC version, like Skyrim's HD texture download pack.


Even having those options in the game's files increases the size of the game itself and how much power the game drains, even if you have the settings on their lowest options since the file sizes themselves have to be registered by the device when the game is running.

------------

Ooooh, hold up. You're talking about texture packs. Hmmm... They might be able to do that for the Steam version, but the amount of work that would go into it would be the same as making a separate version. The reason why Skyrim mods weren't as much of a problem was that the edited textures were implemented on pre-existing material. If AE made a texture mod, they'd have to update it every time new content came out.

Cysero should definitely be asked about that, though. 0.0

< Message edited by ckdragonck -- 1/12/2016 20:59:57 >
DF AQW  Post #: 330
1/12/2016 21:14:09   
speedmeteor101
Member

If we were to ask Cysero, I wouldn't ask him about that now. That's more of a live release thing... after we get the grindy stuff worked out :P This should give us everything we need to know for now, though, about what to expect: http://aq3d.com/progress
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 331
1/12/2016 22:14:05   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 One graphics setting and it's optimized for phones?

Rest in peace AQ3D on PC.
Post #: 332
1/12/2016 22:46:19   
Rezilia
Member

@Cp

The Steam version should be able to run AQ3D with better graphics than the browsers and mobile show, simply because you can alter Nvidia and other settings for the game if you know what you're doing.
DF AQW  Post #: 333
1/12/2016 23:28:53   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 You can understand why that does not make me more optimistic, I trust.
Post #: 334
1/13/2016 0:52:17   
Rezilia
Member

No, I don't. It isn't difficult to do; just look up guides online and you'll be fine. I'm going to make a guide for it once the Steam version releases anyway, so it's not like you'll be laid out to dry.

--

Dear devs,

You should really, really, REALLY give us the ability to connect our Artix and Steam accounts before you release the Steam version. I know this is possible because Eldevin did it.

Unfortunately, that game has a problem where if you play Eldevin through Steam AND the site before linking, the accounts will remain separate (aka char list and everything); I'm sure you guys could find a way to merge character lists into one account eventually...

It's because of those linking difficulties that I suggest getting the account-linking done before releasing the Steam version itself. This should be a top priority.
DF AQW  Post #: 335
1/13/2016 7:40:23   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 I said earlier that I probably will not play this game. I'm more disappointed that the effort isn't being put in. I was hoping it would be the best game it could be and seeing that it will not is quite disheartening.
Post #: 336
1/13/2016 9:32:25   
Rezilia
Member

@Cp

Graphics aren't everything.
DF AQW  Post #: 337
1/13/2016 13:14:53   
speedmeteor101
Member

Yeah, I'd prefer the grinding to be worked out over aesthetics like graphics
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 338
1/13/2016 13:15:09   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 The levels are going to be cramped, the mechanics are going to be probably overly simple and the presentation will suffer due to its limitations. They will have to keep themselves extremely grounded, because the limitations of phones will prevent them from getting truly ambitious. The graphics being limited aren't what kills it for me entirely. As I've said a million times before, it's that there are a bunch of self-imposed limitations on a game that's supposed to be an homage/reimagining to the titles that got them where they are to begin with. That comes off as somewhat disrespectful and cheap to me.

Graphics aren't everything, yeah. But the way a game is presented and how the art is directed and executed is very important whether you want to admit it or not. If this game gets a steam release (steam already having free MMOs on it), no one is going to be impressed by a game with a $300,000 budget that still looks like butts compared to what they're used to. Ask ANYONE in the game's industry now and they will tell you that graphics and how a game looks in general is EXTREMELY important. Forget about that 'graphics aren't important' stuff. Graphics take less priority than gameplay in a lot of projects but they are still 45% of the experience, and unlike gameplay they are a tangible thing that you will be looking at the entire time you're playing the game.

It's simple. If a game isn't visually stimulating then you will eventually get tired of looking at it. Even if the gameplay and mechanics are good you can't force yourself to look at the game as a bunch of code and keep immersed that way.

< Message edited by Cpeepers -- 1/13/2016 13:17:50 >
Post #: 339
1/13/2016 13:30:46   
megakyle777
Member

I can see the point you make, but I'd argue since I wish to weigh in on the Graphics VS Gameplay discussion that what matters more than the actual graphics is the presentation and design on the graphics, and that they fit the environment. For example, if you want to make a cute kids game you don't go for ultra ralisitic graphics and blood and gore, and if you want to make a grimdark universe you use more blood and skulls and the like rather then paiting rainbows everywhere. I'd put forward the argument that what matters more then the actual graphic power of AQ3D is how that is presented: what the world is like for example. I will use a Example: a reason people liked Okami from Capcom at the time was because it has a unique artstyle and presentation to it at the time, being based of japanese watercolorings and using a stylistic, well style. It's not so much about the POWER of the Graphics as much as how they are used and how it draws you into the universe.

< Message edited by megakyle777 -- 1/13/2016 13:31:12 >
DF  Post #: 340
1/13/2016 13:31:14   
speedmeteor101
Member

Yes, not saying that graphics aren't anything. I was just saying we should be complaining about quests before graphics. And I won't even complain, I'll just look into possible fixes; if you have a problem you have to get to the devs, ask why they can't do it, and for things you actually can help in (like quests) you give a fix. For something else set in stone, I don't think it's worth complaining and wasting space. I don't think that our unsubstantial opinion-based feedback is important at all. What we really need to be posting is fixes/ adding on to others' fixes. For everything else, I don't see much we can discuss or even do on this thread :/

And @megakyle

You got a really good point. If they use their graphics limitations effectively, they can survive. Kinda like how some pixel art game can be better than an hd game even though they have the same mechanics (like a sidescroller.. some pixel art is done, just fine and used effectively). Now whether AQ3D fits this we couldn't really discuss because that's extremely opinion-based.

< Message edited by speedmeteor101 -- 1/13/2016 13:35:18 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 341
1/13/2016 13:46:06   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 Okami was a gorgeous game, but the reason it looked so good is because the company had Viewtiful Joe to use as a playground for their art design prior to Okami's development (their graphical styles are very similar) and that they were inherantly a very talented group (They released God Hand not too long after, and that game looks fantastic as well, even if quite bland by comparison to their earlier works).

Also, I use 'graphics' in the most literal sense, the graphical fidelity of the game and just how good it looks in general. I do not expect them to be on par with Tekken 7 in terms of realism or whatever.

The thing is though, Okami didn't really have limitations. They could get wild and creative, so that 'Power of the graphics' thing isn't even really relevant. At the time it wasn't even that far behind something like Resident Evil 4, they were literally able to do whatever they wanted with it. And then shortly after Okami they made God Hand that DID have graphics on par (if not slightly better than) RE4.

Making stuff for phones is different. I would assume that the artists behind AQ3D have a vision for how the game will look, as any artist working on a project should. What will happen here is that they will need to lower their expectations of their work and bring their ambitions for how the game will appear visually down to earth. No, not even down to earth, they need to dig a hole and put their visions in it.
Graphical power isn't SUPER DUPER important yeah, is more what you do with what you have. The thing is that AE is willingly giving themselves less to work with and thus is hindering the vision of their artists. Okami looked so good because they acted upon those ambitions they had and were given the room they needed to do it, with PS2 being the 'next gen' of the time. Releasing an expansive 3D game for phones is taking a step back from that.

I'm an artist, y'know. You can't imagine how painful it can be to have to bury your expectations and settle for something less than your vision because of limitations that don't need to be there. I certainly do NOT need to be told that different things should look different, that is the absolute lowest possible level of understanding for any form of design and of course I'm aware of it.

< Message edited by Cpeepers -- 1/13/2016 13:47:32 >
Post #: 342
1/13/2016 15:58:51   
Anvos
Member

Even without separate options I'm not getting why you assume the game will look bad based on what we've seen so far it seems better than WOW's original graphics and not that major a downgrade from current WOW, once you account for differences of style. Then add in that the prebeta announcement states the current graphics are subject to improvement before release I'm not seeing how it looks bad enough people won't play.

< Message edited by Anvos -- 1/13/2016 16:00:04 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 343
1/13/2016 17:31:29   
speedmeteor101
Member

Speaking of graphics, this is a start. http://www.aq3d.com/news/lighting-update-pre-beta/ (the short video really)

And then for those of you who don't understand (not many) here is a quote from Cysero that may aid you. (twitter 40 mins ago [from initial post time])

quote:

Saying #AQ3D is boring right now is like saying "This is a really lovely fish but it tastes kind of bland," before the chef has cooked it.


Based on the information we do have we are making too many assumptions. How about we wait a bit and see what we do have before we try and slam it. Cutscenes will be the biggest feature as far as questing goes (besides dungeons themselves) so we have to wait for those at least before we judge (+ there are surprises like the shaders above). So there really isn't a need to try and slam aq3d if you already know they aren't going to do what you want (as far as graphics, area sizes etc.) Just know that they are trying their hardest to get their own goals out the way (listed on aq3d.cpm/progress if u wanna know what they are) and along with just getting their own they're trying very hard to accommodate some of the things that many players want while working with limitations. So if you really want to talk about stuff they're not going to change, don't put it on feedback, because feedback is to help them; and if they won't use it, it won't help them. That kinda stuff belongs in a "complaints" thread, so if you have any you might as well start a thread rather than clogging up and obstructing the feedback thread with complaints. I'm not gonna start the thread because I don't have any complaints, as I know how AE works, but I do see some complaints here that belong elsewhere. And who knows, maybe they'll get more attention on their own respective thread.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 344
1/13/2016 17:56:54   
sebihp2007
Member

What AE needs to realize is that there are literally hundreds of 3D MMOs for PC out there. The vast majority of them honestly speaking look way better than AQ3D in its current state. This game needs to be polished a LOT to be competitive on the market and I don't think that amount of polishing will happen if I'm honest. I mean think about it this way: we will be playing it, sure.. we are fans of AE and will try out their games. But what will determine other people (people new to AE) to choose this MMO over the other hundreds that are available?

One strong point that AE has always had with its games is the unique aesthetic and amazing graphical fidelity and artwork. It's in my opinion what drives most people to their games (I was playing DF with one of my friends next to me -- he plays only mainstream triple A titles so obviously he was not impressed by DF; but he did say "I do have to admit that the animations look sick in this game."). However it seems that with AQW3D they seem to have lost this aspect. The graphics look very rudimentary and not unique in any way. Not enough to distinguish the game from other games on the market.

And I don't think that's AE's fault. They didn't have enough budget for implementing an awesome looking 3d aesthetic. It's understandable.

However after all this negative feedback I would like to say one thing: I absolutely wholeheartedly agree with catering to mobile and tablet audiences and, what's even more, having the same version across all platforms. People will say that a phone's limitations will drag the PC version down and while that might be true to an extent, people need to realize that this game will not survive on PC alone (or at least it will struggle a lot to do so). I think mobile platforms are this game's glimmer of hope. Especially considering there's not many games which you can play on your tablet in bed then on your phone in the bus station and then come back home and play it on the PC as well (the exact same game with the same account and everything else).

I really hope that despite my pessimism this game will do well ; I think that it does have a chance on the market especially because of the mobile factor.
AQ  Post #: 345
1/13/2016 18:53:59   
speedmeteor101
Member

I agree with your points, though I don't think that it's for competing with other MMO's in terms of what they can't control [their goals]. It's about them being unique (which you did say, but did not focus on). They are also really targeting their older players while allowing new players to slip in if they want too. That last paragraph of yours really sums up everything, soo yeah. And I'm really glad you're one who can understand :P Some people just don't get how stuff works, and when you try to explain, there's a brick wall. So feedback becomes complaints, without understanding. Great response!
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 346
1/13/2016 19:05:58   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 WoW and AQ3D have different styles, but if you're going to try and call one better than the other than WoW's original graphics were made in 2004 and still only look slightly worse than what we've seen so far. They are making new models and textures for a lot of things and those look phenomenal, far better (I think) than AQ3D so far.

And yeah no doubt that the art direction is open for improvement and models can be improved as they go, but because of their pretty short beta period and the limitations of phones there is only so much they can actually do.

And you think that the PC is flooded with MMOs? Guess what. There are even more on mobile.
This game could certainly do well on PC. The success of the kickstarter showed that people are hyped for it, and if it were free and even close to the quality of WoW or FF14 then there would be people who would quit those, or others who would make AQ3D their first MMO because of how long the others have been around and how long it can take to establish yourself in them. And surprisingly few are actually making MMOs for PC compared to mobile, because mobile doesn't have WoW, FF14 and TERA to compete with.

Like, really. Do you really think that no one in China ever thought "Oh hey MMOs are super popular let's make our own on phones because that's really cheap"? Do you think no big-budget companies thought the same thing? There are still tonnes of web MMOs and IOS MMOs that have been around long enough to establish a following, but not too long that the people who are playing them have gotten sick of them and would put all the time they've invested into it to waste.

It is just a bad time in general to make new MMOs really. If you were going to make one though, it should be a good one to the point it can compete with the big names but have the advantage of being free. Otherwise it will not do too well, there is too much competition to slack and make a lesser product for the sake of getting it on as many things as possible.
Post #: 347
1/13/2016 19:48:22   
speedmeteor101
Member

Yes, while that's true AE's main goal for making AQ3D was to bring former players back, who mostly left for mobile games. That's at least what artix said way back in december of 2014.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 348
1/13/2016 21:21:26   
Cpeepers
Member
 

 I feel as though reimagining AQ in 3D would have served that purpose just fine, but making a watered down MMORPG for people who are now probably old enough to crave something more stimulating and have less free time to grind out quests will surely attract those old fans. If this is for those old fans, then AE will need to grow up with their audience and take them seriously instead of expecting them to bite an inferior version of what they already have just for nostalgia's sake. Otherwise most of their business will be from younger people who don't know any better yet.

If there was thought put into this then there wasn't enough.

< Message edited by Cpeepers -- 1/13/2016 21:24:25 >
Post #: 349
1/13/2016 22:18:20   
speedmeteor101
Member

We haven't seen nor know all of their plans, so don't be too quick to judge. It seems it will at least start out grindy and Cysero has admitted so, but the quest about the ogres you suggested seemed cutscene based; So once we see what they can do with cutscenes, you'd be justified in judging. That only goes for grindy quests though. We still have yet to see, what they still haven't shown us or will discover themselves.

Also, when ever they finish developing and implementing advanced interactives you'll have something real to judge. Like he said, you're saying an uncooked fish tasted bland. Let them cook it, first.

< Message edited by speedmeteor101 -- 1/13/2016 22:27:56 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 350
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