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RE: =AQ= Fall into Fungibushi: Exclusive Gear & Community

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9/27/2024 23:16:56   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 As mentioned above, the feedback about Spore implementation and technical problems has been passed on to the coders, and the team is looking at how to solve the issues. That is already underway. We cannot essentially do triple work by backing out of that to rework the set to do something completely different instead.
Post #: 26
9/27/2024 23:57:42   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Is there consideration to slow down on content updates to allow time to fix problems or is a schedule necessary to keep? If things constantly release poorly why add to the problems? It should be fine to have more weeks of correcting issues. We still have things needing fixes but there doesn't seem to be any time for them.

Maybe some change is needed with updates.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 27
9/28/2024 0:16:41   
CarrionSpike
Member

Hasn't content been slow already? We've pretty much only had the standard seasonal shops along with package/ggb releases, and of course several weeks dedicated to the Summer Donation Drive, but barely any quest releases. In fact I think the last quest release was ~2 months ago (unless I'm mistaken). Normally by this time of the year we'd have significantly more quest releases. We're also about to enter the gauntlet of Fall/Winter seasonal events and those cannot be skipped for obvious reasons.

Considering that the planned quest line for this Summer/Early Fall hasn't been completed and other planned releases have likely been pushed back (due to obvious reasons) I don't think it makes much sense to push everything back even further and leave the team with and even tighter schedule for the upcoming seasonal gauntlet.

Of course this doesn't mean that I'm pleased with the state of the currently released Fungibushi items, but the Donation Drive should not to consume more release weeks than it already has/is planned to.
Post #: 28
9/28/2024 0:35:21   
icetears
Member

I don’t mind dev taking some time to fix or update items and receiving fewer releases. There’s ton of items with fantastic art that were essential dead on release because they needed fixing or buffing. Donation items should get abit more attention to fix or update. I’m still waiting for the update on devoured shield from the last winter dono.
Post #: 29
9/28/2024 1:00:20   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Sacrificing content updates to fix flaws is worth making us wait. October and November can be a release of seasonal stuff only, maybe toss a note mentioning the winter update in november, do the black friday sale and this should free up time to fix things. It makes me confused as to why an update schedule is so very important in this instance. The AQ section of AE can't be that massive so why do we still push for weekly updates. There's a point where reason beats tradition.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 30
9/28/2024 2:07:55   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 Content updates would be the last thing we can afford to sacrifice even more of, especially when taking player feedback into consideration. We've already not only pushed the limit of how much we can be forced to scale back playable content, but had to continually postpone content plans as it is. It's having to do that in the first place that creates the buildup of backlog that makes updates vulnerable to this kind of situation where a disruption makes them overflow into later weeks. Without content to take items into, premium releases stop keeping the lights on. Ultimately, content weeks, if they're not too intensive, can be lighter and allow for more backlog decompression than entire sets. Taking extra weeks that contain the workload of redesigning an entire set would ultimately amount to aggravating the issue.

Fixes are already underway for the things that have broken. The update to the DefLoss status is in testing. Spore feedback has been collected. Please allow for some time to process.

Thank you for your patience.
Post #: 31
9/28/2024 8:03:43   
Rastaban
Member
 

 Thanks for the painting! Reaping Gale is awesome.
Post #: 32
9/28/2024 9:07:08   
Branl
Member

Speaking strictly about the contest, one could make a fair argument to downsize the scale of the items of the contest.
Even assuming all goes well, two full sets require 2 weeks each at least to release.
I'll propose some potential time saving measures with regards to the contest that I've seen floated:

1) Scrapping the voting process/period.
This sort of ties into the issue with popularity based selection criteria with regards to negative impacts on the community. Staff either creating a set and providing some explanation on what it will do, or choosing a set not based on popularity, but based on feasibility of the implementation, how the sets can help broader itemization issues, and confidence in being able to implement the idea without having to deviate severely from the intended power output and purpose. I'm not sure how much this can streamline the contest period, but I presume there's some benefit, given said benefit is part of the reason the original Wingweaver was created so early.

2) Making the community set an elemental variant of the Giftmaster set.
This should, at least, cut the amount of work that has to be done. Balance considerations, and amount of different items that have to be made are halved. The community at large now has a vested interest in how the full Giftmaster set turns out, and you don't have suggestions proposed or fixes proposed that can be perceived as only being "to the benefit of a few".

3) Rather than full sets, Weapon/Misc/Shield like the Winter donation contest.
Similar to two, but more targeted. Armors are generally the most complex item category to design for. If it helps to avoid putting off more delays on behalf of the Summer contest, I thought it was at least worth floating.

I can't really take into consideration the financial aspect of these suggestions as a player. I don't really have any special insight to suggestions that are or aren't viable due to real financial concerns that have to be taken into account. Solutions two or three may or may not be feasible because of that.
I'd prefer to get confirmation from staff on where they are regarding that, then be afraid of potentially floating suggestions that aren't feasible. If they aren't, it would at least help guide player suggestions on how to help give staff more time to tackle backlog stuff.


_____________________________

IGN: Teryle

There's a method to my madness.
AQ DF  Post #: 33
9/28/2024 9:55:00   
Sapphire
Banned
quote:

2) Making the community set an elemental variant of the Giftmaster set.



Making it a copy but an elemental variant will reduce token donations. I think many players will take this as a reason to not go for any of the token versions.

Instead, what I proposed was taking the THEME and IDEAS and making a set using those, and making it a different element. And staff could even out their own spin on it.

But the community set would need to be scaled back. As an example, let's say in the giftmaster set has a new idea for a status and the proposal had it inflict oer hit up to 4 hits. The community set then, would need to be hits/misses and be some melee % based on that.. meaning the giftmaster set likely could use a 4 hit armor for greater power over the community set.

Another example: The weapon pays 25% damage for effect X for the community set, but the giftmaster set pays 50% damage or 25% damage + 25% melee SP for that effect. Things like this.

If you make it exactly the same, less people will donate and perhaps still obtain the idea/theme.

I'm on board with removing the community suggestion and making it similar to the giftmaster suggestion to reduce some workload, but not a clone.

< Message edited by Sapphire -- 9/29/2024 10:37:51 >
Post #: 34
9/28/2024 10:11:25   
Branl
Member

quote:


Making it a copy but an elemental variant will reduce token donations. I think many players will take this as a reason to not go for any of the token versions.

Instead, what I proposed was taking the THEME and IDEAS and making a set using those, and making it a different element. And staff could even out their own spin on it.

But the community set would need to be scaled back. As an example, let's say in the giftmaster set has a new idea for a status and the proposal had it inflict oer hit up to 4 hits. The community set then, would need to be hits/misses and be some melee % based on that.. meaning the giftmaster set likely could use a 4 hit armor for greater power over the community set.


Any suggestion that involves making the community set deliberately weaker to "incentivize" donations would fly in the face of previous staff statements on premium items. They are not, and have not, ever been in the market for making premium items deliberately more powerful.
Premium items tend to be the experimental/time consuming stuff. Being experimental, the effects are liable to being weaker or stronger than average, people just hyperfocus on the stronger than average effects, ignore the massive amount of premium items that were weak and/or unpopular, and presume that premium = power is an acceptable stance for staff to take.

Besides, tweaking the community set to be purposefully weaker would actually take more time than just doing elemental variants. Further, I don't even want them to take the set and put their own spin on it without making it deliberately weaker. Anything that can give the appearance of "You donate for more powerful gear", regardless of intent, I'm not in favor of.
And again, I'm not AQ staff, I'm not interested in arguing the financial aspect of this, especially with a player that knows about as much as I do about that. Staff will take that into consideration, I'm sure. If they want to comment specifically on that to help guide player feedback, that's up to them.

< Message edited by Branl -- 9/28/2024 10:23:18 >

_____________________________

IGN: Teryle

There's a method to my madness.
AQ DF  Post #: 35
9/28/2024 11:18:51   
Sapphire
Banned


 Actually, anyone can look at the difference between token package items and something like an UR GGB and clearly see in plain sight that these items are better. What staff have said is everything is subject to balance.

These two ideas are completely different.

One must look to see.

Premium items are balanced just like non premium items, but they're better. Otherwise, why even be premium? Fairly obvious.

If you wish to dislike the exclusivity of the giftmaster set of items being better than the community set then make that argument. But the one you're making isn't accurate


Making the community set a copy of the giftmaster set is a bad idea

< Message edited by Sapphire -- 9/28/2024 11:21:38 >
Post #: 36
9/28/2024 14:40:29   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Set just has a numbers issue. Concept is fine so if adjusted it has to be better. A reduction in turns to reach full potential will be best. And I also disagree with the clone idea. It defeats the point of donating once goal is met.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 37
9/29/2024 15:14:57   
Dardiel
Member

If Fungibushi suggestions are still happening, I have two proposals that I think fix the largest problems:

- To fix the problem of initial spores being too weak and growing too slowly; warwolf is precedent for "permanent+stacking" mechanics to have /5 power instead of /10 since it's not like you're only creating spores on the first turn. This would double their starting power and their growth rate.

- To fix the problem of too many spores; I propose a few steps:
- - Remove the spore hard cap, but keep 0.6 as a "trigger" value
- - When a spore reaches 0.6, if it isn't the topmost spore, it deletes itself and adds its power to the topmost spore
- - For the topmost spore, while at/above 0.6, it gains a multiplier on the growth rate equal to 5/(5+power); it also heals the player for [1-5/(5+power)]*100% of the damage dealt
This would allow all capped spores to compress into a single spore, and keep the significance of the 0.6 breakpoint while also adding a soft cap that prevents spores from getting problematically large without arbitrarily removing value for having spores.

The armor's Propagate skill would still end up in a funky situation (I'm not sure any spore stacking fix would prevent Propagate from becoming weird) but I'm sure there are several ways to keep the spirit of "skill that trades immediate spore benefits for longer-term spore benefits"; theoretically a simple option would be for Propagate to eat spores to inflict a permanent vulnerability to spore damage (or to the element dealt by spores, if that's even easier).
Post #: 38
9/30/2024 14:46:46   
Sapphire
Banned
quote:

If Fungibushi suggestions are still happening, I have two proposals that I think fix the largest problems:

- To fix the problem of initial spores being too weak and growing too slowly; warwolf is precedent for "permanent+stacking" mechanics to have /5 power instead of /10 since it's not like you're only creating spores on the first turn. This would double their starting power and their growth rate.

- To fix the problem of too many spores; I propose a few steps:
- - Remove the spore hard cap, but keep 0.6 as a "trigger" value
- - When a spore reaches 0.6, if it isn't the topmost spore, it deletes itself and adds its power to the topmost spore
- - For the topmost spore, while at/above 0.6, it gains a multiplier on the growth rate equal to 5/(5+power); it also heals the player for [1-5/(5+power)]*100% of the damage dealt
This would allow all capped spores to compress into a single spore, and keep the significance of the 0.6 breakpoint while also adding a soft cap that prevents spores from getting problematically large without arbitrarily removing value for having spores.

The armor's Propagate skill would still end up in a funky situation (I'm not sure any spore stacking fix would prevent Propagate from becoming weird) but I'm sure there are several ways to keep the spirit of "skill that trades immediate spore benefits for longer-term spore benefits"; theoretically a simple option would be for Propagate to eat spores to inflict a permanent vulnerability to spore damage (or to the element dealt by spores, if that's even easier).


I like a lot of what's said here.

However, I still wonder if SP/MP, etc toggles need to be included on the weapon as an option to generate stronger spore..maybe even in addition to this. I get that the basic premise here is no save and no resource costs for the status as a baseline to enable something for especially lower-level players, but IMO that shouldn't exclude the toggle as an option.



Post #: 39
10/22/2024 12:39:52   
  The Hollow
AQ Lead


 The Fungibushi set is now complete! Thank you everyone for being so patient. Head to Ballyhoo or Today's Event page to grab the final pieces of your fungal fighter gear.
AQ  Post #: 40
10/23/2024 6:38:53   
Strange Doctor
Member
 

 Please let us get a non-CC version as well.
Post #: 41
10/23/2024 6:55:32   
CH4OT1C!
Member

I can't help but find the double irony of Fungibushi's implementation rather amusing. After the clearly Warrior-oriented aesthetic of the set, it was interesting to see that the winning suggestion ended up being oriented more towards Spellcasters. Now, the translated implementation of those mechanics in-game have stripped out many of the major aspects oriented towards spellcasting, aligning Fungibushi more closely again with FD Warriors!

It's a pretty decent set for FD Warriors. Alongside the ramping spore healing, the elecomped weapon options and elemental empowerment make it very strong on the weapon side. Unfortunately, on the spellcasting side it seems to have been reduced to little more than a placeholder: acceptable for basic spellcasting, but unable to properly utilise any of the set's mechanics as effectively (any benefit to Spellcasters in this set is smaller than the benefits offered to Weapon-based attacks, e.g., the elemental empowerment is halved for spells). Frankly, if these weren't @RobynJoanne's suggested mechanics, it would have been better to make Fungibushi an FO/FD toggle armour, because SC really has no business being there.

The armour should be resistant to Wind/Ice/Light, not Wind/Ice/Dark. Spore is also healing regardless of whether it's capped, and I'm not entirely sure that's intentional...

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 10/23/2024 7:26:09 >
AQ  Post #: 42
10/23/2024 7:12:11   
ming shuen
Member

I had huge hopes for this set - - but all spellcasting aspects have been stripped off. It's basically Wind Brilhado Necromancer Robes for casters.

quote:

Toggle 2: Lock normal and Bow/Wand attacks to Element and gain EleComp to damage. Spells of the same Element cast while this is toggled also gain EleComp to damage.


I hope the bolded section can be implemented - because otherwise, this set has no business being spellcaster lean. If the staff are already fatigued from working on Fungibushi and don't wish to do any heavy amendments, make it Wind/Ice/Light, change it to FD/FO, release a non-CC version, and we can just close this project
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 43
10/23/2024 9:29:32   
Aura Knight
Banned


 Why put a spellcaster toggle on a samurai themed set? FD/FO swap fits better. Misc effect skipping a turn adds an unnecessary slowness, the spell has almost no reason to be used, spore is a worse poison and the only nice part of everything is the art though I would like a non-cc version using the colors shown in the preview images. I need to still try one of the pets but not expecting much.

edit: Pet is ok.


< Message edited by Aura Knight -- 10/23/2024 9:51:44 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 44
10/23/2024 9:33:50   
JhyShy
Member
 

 As an FD warrior, using this set has been a pretty good experience, it works well for the build which the set is primarily built upon, so good job on that front staff!

Spellcaster though, with a lot of the mechanics going for that lean not making it in, I'd rather opt for the lean to be changed to FO, which isn't too bad having a FO wind armor when we basically only have 2 F2P ones is a good thing

I hope the elemental resists bug is fixed since it's currently protecting against darkness and not light

I hope you guys also release a non CC version of the set as the original colors in the promotional materials look so good not gonna lie

All in all, with the time you guys had and the schedule you guys have to deal with I've gotta say, this was a fine job you guys did on the FD side, thank you for the update
Post #: 45
10/23/2024 12:07:45   
Telcontar Arvedui I
Member

Well, I am honestly happy with how the set turned out. Sure, it flipped the script on a lot of @RobynJoanne's design intentions, which is a (sobering? I am not quite sure if it's the correct/appropriate adjective here) reminder that player suggestions are rarely going to be implemented verbatim as devs have discretion.

OTOH, the end result is a pretty decent set that caters well to a slower, defensive playstyle, which IMO is fitting as it centers around Spore, a DoT status with permanent duration. We could just employ resources towards shoring up our defenses, then sit back and stack Spores via weapon/shield/pet. Then, should players want to hit back hard, the misc can come in to Eat the accumulated Spore, with the caveat that it takes a full turn before the effects are applied.

There are also some less-than-obvious interactions that subvert the core gameplay of the set. For instance, with the Fungibushi shield/spell capable of applying Harm Spores, players can take advantage of it to set up a potentially potent 4-turn Harm Empower as long as they have a way to consistently deal Harm damage (Lorekeeper's Oath, anyone?). Bullshroom can potentially be at permanent Spore-Eater mode once you've reached 3+ total Spore Power. Moocelium is an indirect support item to Backlash/Dodgelash players who lack the luxury of premium options. These are just the results of player testing and theorycrafting within 24 hours of the full release - there could be more weird combos and interactions to uncover.

That said, I will concede that the set does have some imperfections. Spellcaster lean is the obvious red-headed stepchild of the set - it allows the Fungibushi armour to plug the gap of a F2P-friendly SC armour, but it struggles to do more without further set-synergy w.r.t. frontloading spell damage, and it certainly seems underwhelming compared to, say, Chaos Slayer Cleric. However, I think this is alright. Not every release has to be best-in-slot for the niche it appears to cater to, and IMO Fungibushi is workable enough for INT builds who can't afford the other Wind SC armours.

Finally, I think there are three (3) day-one phenomena that might warrant reviews:
  • Given @RobynJoanne specified Wind/Ice/Ight triple compression on the armour instead of Wind/Ice/Dark, are devs at liberty to disclose the reason behind implementing the latter? Personally I don't think it absolutely needs to be changed from Dark to Light, but I'd like it if there is an explanation behind the decision, however brief.
  • As of the time of posting this, Spores that ramp also heal, when about 13 hours earlier they only heal when capped. Not sure if this is intended - but if it is, will there be a need to reduce the ramping multiplier to compensate? (Quick math says *1.15 will have to be reduced to a minimum of *1.081 unless there are different factors that influence the implementation according to the standard turn model)
  • The armour's "Increase the cap (of a single instance of capped Spore?) by 50%" is not yet observed at the time of posting.
    • AQ  Post #: 46
    10/23/2024 12:39:31   
    KhalJJ
    Member
     

    		 Enjoy the stealth drop, and kudos to staff for pushing through!

    The art is fantastic, and was it a post-poll winner decision to go with the attack animation? If not, that's a cool coincidence; if so, it's a great decision, it fits perfectly with the theme!

    +1 for the non-CC option. Until AQ gets better CC control (between items), non-CC options are a must, and even then, they're a good idea.

    Constructive feedback on this, with the caveat that I understand time pressure was not ideal (a whole other issue):
    - I do not think it is a good idea to request player suggestions and then "halfway house" implement them - I'll try to explain below with some examples.
    - In this case, making the armor SC was justified by some of the design decisions Jeanne made; these design aspects were all removed, meaning the armor doesn't really make sense as SC currently. I think this "halfway house" is more disappointing to players than a complete change, or going with Jeanne's other talked about lean shift (I think).
    - The removal of a Spore-related skill from the armor - I see the Infosubs have an effect (as Tel says, doesn't appear to currently be functioning?) but even with this, I'm not sure it feels cohesive as "part of the set". Spore being what it is (new and hence rare) it doesn't make sense not to include something here for this, as Jeanne of course did. (again, understand this is likely time-related)

    - On the time front, I sympathise, bad actors contributed (poll), but also strongly contributing is just how much AQ staff took on - appreciate that much of this was out of desire to make great items for players, but I think most agree that slightly fewer things, executed better, would be better received.
    Post #: 47
    10/23/2024 15:33:44   
    Sapphire
    Banned
    quote:

    I had huge hopes for this set - - but all spellcasting aspects have been stripped off. It's basically Wind Brilhado Necromancer Robes for casters.

    quote:

    Toggle 2: Lock normal and Bow/Wand attacks to Element and gain EleComp to damage. Spells of the same Element cast while this is toggled also gain EleComp to damage.


    I hope the bolded section can be implemented - because otherwise, this set has no business being spellcaster lean. If the staff are already fatigued from working on Fungibushi and don't wish to do any heavy amendments, make it Wind/Ice/Light, change it to FD/FO, release a non-CC version, and we can just close this project




    If we really wanted to make this something, we could stop gatekeeping ideas from spellcasters/mages.

    The toggle elelocks all weapon attacks to wind and gains elecomp to damage. The SC lean is pointless given the mechanics. However, if we made it such that in SC lean, the wind lock toggle worked for all spells just like it works for all weapons, we stop gatekeeping ideas off of Mages. FD Lean = weapons elelock. SC Lean = spell elelock (not weapons). It doesn't need elecomp when wind spells are casted. It needs elelocked spells out of sheer fairness. When are we going to stop pretending Mages are still too good to be allowed to have access to some of the same ideas that non mages have? We are past the stat revamp, aren't we?


    This doesn't have to be something that is some kind of new standard for Sc lean or anything. It just can be a specific aesthetic to some armors...ones that have SC lean but does little else that synergizes with SC lean.

    For example, Nightmare Queen Regalia has a built in spell. So no need. It does other things, too. SO again, no need. But Fungibushi? Mirror Vordred? Stuff like that. Maybe it's time to experiment and let's be fair.

    < Message edited by Sapphire -- 10/23/2024 15:39:52 >
    Post #: 48
    10/23/2024 19:56:12   
    ming shuen
    Member

    		Reply to Telcontar Arvedui I
    I get that you are a fan, and I know you conceded that SC is the red-headed stepchild, but I think you are underplaying how gutted the SC-side of the set is. You are comparing it to the best spellcasting armour in the game and saying that it is alright that it falls short. However, as a stand-alone, this is a Wind Brilhado 2.0. Even with a huge array of supporting items, it falls short as compared to Wind Necromancer Calvary – and that’s an armour that is held in very low regard, by most of the player base. It does not have to be the best-in-slot, but at least not have it be the worst-in-slot? A whole set losing to a singular, poorly regarded armour? That’s rough.

    It's ‘workable’ for wind, the same way that Brilhado is ‘workable’ for dark. Technically correct. I know that you are a fan of the ‘other synergies’, but they don’t apply to casters.

    Reply to Sapphire
    That is quite the amendment you are proposing. Personally, I rather have some of Jeanne’s SC elements added back into the set, as compared to such a change. Perhaps for future items instead, after a GBI is raised. Something easier to implement would be better for now – so that this project can be closed.

    Overall Thoughts
    You know, I believe that a lot of Jeanne’s mechanics can be implemented. However, due to a lack of bandwidth or fatigue, this set got essentially chopped in half. All SC elements are gone.

    War-wolf was a full set of items – accessible to only 53 players. Fungibushi is half a set, accessible to everyone. Perhaps the workload distribution needs to be better managed, i.e., not working on both simultaneously, back-to-back, or even have the community release pushed back to January. Or focusing less on the Giftmaster set and more on the community set.

    I am still holding out some hope that some SC elements can be incorporated, but if not, all that remains is minor bug fixes and this is done. It is good for FD playstyles, will be even better with an FO toggle, and I am happy that this set have some fans.

    Clarifying Edit: The 2.0 represents an upgrade from a regular Wind Brilhado. Whenever the phrase "most of the playerbase is used" - I refer to the 3 AQ discords

    Edit 2: You know, after some thought, Sapphire’s idea is super lit, an absolute banger. Might as well go ahead with it. Make Fungibushi SC worthy, if we are planning to keep it that way. No need to be conservative, at least, just this once. Though if others prefer a more modest proposal, I am all for it too

    < Message edited by ming shuen -- 10/24/2024 2:03:01 >
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 49
    10/24/2024 1:57:01   
    NightofLight
    Member
     

    		 I think a way to keep the original FD/SC leans would be to change the skill to a spell elelock like dreamweaver, have it turn your attacks into wind spells, this makes the most sense for the leans present although it would mean weapon effects would no longer proc but it lets the mage weapon proc off the skill which would be neat. Bonus points if they make it cost like an efficient spell with elecomp to dmg.
    AQ  Post #: 50
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