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Over-Cliche Stories

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7/5/2009 23:51:05   
Bioshock.
Member

Personally, I am in the midst of writing a story about many things. There are demons, adepts, humans, N.W.O., and many majestic like objects in this story.

Every time I stumble upon a good idea, it turns into a very over-cliche type dilemma. "One race will take over the world" "You are the key" "The seal is what keeps the demon caged" "The bad guy is actually the good guy" "The good guy is actually the medium type guy"

I'm lost!

So what is your opinion on the matter, do you think Over-Cliche stories can be good? If it is written well enough, do you think they can be more entertaining then a original story?

Also, if anyone would like to help me with my story (much appreciated!) feel free to send me a message!
DF MQ  Post #: 1
7/6/2009 9:09:57   
Prator the Legendary
Member

Cliches are not automatically bad. The scope of human imagination is just limited enough that it's nearly impossible not to somehow imitate something that someone else has done before somewhere. It's your presentation of the cliches that counts.

Look at Eragon and the Inheritance series. They're full of stereotypes, but they're still interesting enough that the cliches aren't really noticeable for the most part unless you're actively looking for them or you're a critic in spirit.

If you can take a step back from what you've written or what you're thinking about and honestly say to yourself, "this is NOT a blatant copy of something I've seen or read before," then you're probably okay.
AQ  Post #: 2
7/7/2009 3:28:31   
Argeus the Paladin
Member

This page should give you all the answers you may need.
DF  Post #: 3
7/7/2009 13:11:29   
Firefly
Lore-ian


 Actually, I recommend you read this page: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools?from=Main.TropesAreNotBad

As a side note, my respect for TV tropes has actually gone down recently. Any site that names Hellsing as one of the "great" vampire stories and leaves out Anne Rice needs to recheck their criteria for "great." So yeah, though it's a great site, do not think of it as a rulebook for your writing.

Tell the story you want to tell. That's the best advice I can give. If someone sacrifices their artistic vision because "Shakespeare did it first," then, well... sorry if I'm going to sound cruel, but that person probably doesn't have a vision worth telling. How much you care about your story and how much work you put into your idea (as opposed to simply relying on the idea itself) is directly proportional to the quality of your story.

EDIT: Perhaps I wasn't being clear. My point is, be a writer only if you must write, regardless of if you're being completely original. Me, I dunno if my writing is worth anything, but I have stories I want to tell. One of my protagonists is an antihero with black hair and pale skin who seeks revenge against a ninja and is ultimately manipulated by the antivillain. So... does that mean I won't be writing the story? Does that mean I have to change my main character and plot into something completely unrecognizable? No, because I can't. So ultimately, you won't be able to tell your story anymore if you try to avoid "cliches" entirely.

And a lotta those things you named aren't really cliche. They've just been used before, but they definitely can have original spins added onto them.

< Message edited by Firefly -- 7/7/2009 13:29:02 >
AQ  Post #: 4
7/7/2009 14:21:37   
marvin_the_robot
Member

The TVTropes!! They BURN!!!! I'm MELTING!!!

/Ozreference

Haha, I'm kidding. I love TVTropes as much as the next guy :P

Psh, originality is overrated. It's great, if you can deliver your idea properly. An original idea means nothing if it's not a good one. I'd rather go with a tried and true formula with a story, tweaking it to my own personal style. That's how you prevent cliches.
DF  Post #: 5
7/7/2009 15:14:32   
Sanguine
Member

I think that as long as the story is immersive... readers won't recognize there are cliche's. That and a lot of twists and turns. Look at Harry Potter... so many twists and turns and references to previous books. Now JKR is one of the richest people in the world.
Post #: 6
7/7/2009 15:20:17   
Reaper Sigma
Member

Cliches are way bad. Most cliches are so predictable and boring, good guy wins. But some stories, like the LOTR stories, were cliche, yet they were amazing books. Cliches can be good, if you write well enough.
Post #: 7
7/7/2009 15:43:13   
Cow Face
One Heck of a Guy


 Personally, I prefer well-thought-out, original plotlines and such. In a short story which I had been writing but scrapped, I was trying to avoid using as many cliches as I could, but it proved difficult (not why I scrapped it). As such, I can understand why many writers use them; at times, they're cliche only because they are the most likely course of action. I'm considering, though, writing a story parodying every cliche in science fantasy which I can think of.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 8
7/7/2009 16:43:03   
marvin_the_robot
Member

quote:

Cliches are way bad. Most cliches are so predictable and boring, good guy wins. But some stories, like the LOTR stories, were cliche, yet they were amazing books. Cliches can be good, if you write well enough.


You got it wrong. LotR probably established a bunch of the fantasy-esque cliches we're so used to today; if anything, it's original.
DF  Post #: 9
7/7/2009 18:41:05   
Xirminator
Member

Cliches (and stereotypes) are useful, especially if used with care.

Imagine I start describing an old man wearing a tattered suit that's too big for him. His hair and beard are matted, and his cheekbones are very evident. A bottle of wine is half hidden by his sleeve, as he trudges morosely in the street.

What do you think of that? A homeless man? A drunkard?

Cliches can be used to establish familiarity and pull the reader in. Of course, complete familiarity is uninteresting, so it might be nice to know that the old man was once rich but lost his money in a bad business gamble, and that he is going home to share a drink with some friends.

quote:

Cliches are way bad. Most cliches are so predictable and boring, good guy wins. But some stories, like the LOTR stories, were cliche, yet they were amazing books. Cliches can be good, if you write well enough.


Many of the cliches in epic fantasy come from the Lord of the Rings, actually. It is so well done that many try to imitate it, some fail, some don't.

< Message edited by Xirminator -- 7/7/2009 18:42:35 >
AQ DF  Post #: 10
7/8/2009 14:12:27   
Firefly
Lore-ian


 Perhaps my link has not gained enough attention. I'll repeat the point of it: TROPES (common tools in storytelling) ARE NOT CLICHES.

Cliches are things that are so overdone that they're stale. If something is not stale, even if it's something the audience recognizes, then it is not a cliche. People recognize the antihero, from Lestat de Lioncourt to Roland Deschain. But it's not a cliche because within the frame of an antihero, there is a /lot/ of room for originality. Cliches are not only defined by what they are, but by how you write them.

People criticize Eragon not because it has war, dragons, a young hero, and whatnot. People criticize it because it did not do anything original with the elements it contained. For an extreme example, A Song of Ice and Fire had dragons, quite a few young characters, and war, and I object to anyone labelling /that/ as cliche. (You can say it's violent, gross, overly descriptive, ect. ect. if you like, but I really doubt you'd think it's cliche)

But ultimately, Eragon sold. Why? Because he did something appealing to the audience. I've only read the first book so my analysis of the appeal would be inadequate, but I'm sure it's there. Perhaps there's a group that enjoys the familiar (thrillers and mysteries come to mind--they follow a pretty set pattern, and they're still selling). Perhaps Eragon looked good compared to what else is on the YA shelf. But I'm kinda getting off topic here. What I mean is: just because something has been used before doesn't mean it's cliche.
AQ  Post #: 11
7/9/2009 2:40:15   
Argeus the Paladin
Member

^^ Eragon = Star Wars IN SPACE! as far as I know.
DF  Post #: 12
7/9/2009 4:12:59   
khalim456
Member

Gah Eragon. I preferred it better when it was called Star Wars.

Please do not write like our friend Paolini. Abusing the thesaurus and integrating incessant purple prose will get your writing only so far. Let's not even get to the copying of cliches evidenced in his 2nd book where the famous Star Wars line "I am your father" as well as "Search you heart, you know it to be true" mysteriously crops up.

It will be soon enough that the "anti-hero" will eventually become so common in texts that they also will fall under the "cliche" range of miscellaneous paraphernalia that needs to be used with extreme skill and caution. So use it now while you can, kiddies, before the window of opportunity is up.

I'm pretty sure I found an article on how to deal with cliches and use them to your advantage, I'll post it if I ever do find it.

But my advice, for what it's worth: Don't ever critique your own work. It just never works. Even J.R.R.Tolkien had C.S. Lewis to deflate his head and make fun of his elves, and vice-versa with Tolkien retorting that Lewis' work was too "childish and anthropomorphic". Get a trusted and honest friend to read your piece of writing, and ask them whether it is too cliched or whatnot. That's my own personal modus operandi, and it hasn't failed me yet.


< Message edited by khalim456 -- 7/9/2009 4:14:11 >
AQ  Post #: 13
7/9/2009 12:41:56   
Firefly
Lore-ian


 I don't watch Star Wars, so whatever references Paolini had, they flew right over my head. But I notice the similarities between Eragon and LotR. But none of that annoyed me nearly so much as the fact that every one of his characters (with the possible exception of Murtagh) felt like a proxy for their role. So far as I can detect, folks like Eragon and Roran have nearly no personality outside of what the plot requires.

But look! The fact that we're even talking about him! He may not be a good writer, but something in his works causes many people to enjoy it. That's why writing is subjective, and there is no rule--only loose principles.

As for the antihero argument, a distinction needs to be made about role and personality. The antihero role may be used however many times, but it offers unlimited possibilities for personalities. That's why I pulled out the Lestat and Roland example; they're distinct, different characters despite both being antiheroes. I doubt anyone would hate The Dark Tower because they read The Vampire Chronicles first or vice versa. Frankly, if a role as vague as antihero should be avoided, you're only going to be limiting your options and ultimately end up boxing yourself into a corner with your own fear of cliches.

I don't think an author's opinion of their own work is useless. As writers, one skill is to learn to edit. No one can write your stories for you, and when people offer suggestions, it's up to you to decide how to change the part, if you change it at all. Sure, the author's opinion is one opinion and might not be the best one, but no writer can get through life without editing their own work. Knowing how to evaluate stories, your own or others, is a skill a writer must develop, and basing your opinion of your work solely on what others tell you doesn't speak of a lot of care about your own writing. The bottom line is, if you hate what you wrote and don't give a crap about it, why should anyone else care?

< Message edited by Firefly -- 7/9/2009 12:42:38 >
AQ  Post #: 14
7/11/2009 12:15:17   
Bioshock.
Member

I understand now, more than before this statement makes more sense to me than any others (though others are still helpful :)

quote:

"
Psh, originality is overrated. It's great, if you can deliver your idea properly. An original idea means nothing if it's not a good one. I'd rather go with a tried and true formula with a story, tweaking it to my own personal style. That's how you prevent cliches. "


Thanks marvin_the_robot!

DF MQ  Post #: 15
7/11/2009 16:02:33   
[Leviathan]
Member

There is nothing wrong with following a trend if it works, but you must be able to bend it to fit your ideas and style. Uniqueness is born from improvisation; it is built upon an inherent idea that strays away from the social script. Those who play to the common interests will find their works to be unoriginal, stale, commonplace. Self-expression is the only remedy for stereotype.

On a less serious note, the argument that Eragon is modern rendition of Star Wars is entirely true. Eragon is Star Wars is The Lord of the Rings is the New Testament is the monomyth. You can check out The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell for a better explanation, but in a few words, the monomyth is a basic schematic that every story with a hero follows: "a hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man." So if Eragon really is Star Wars really is etc., then why are they all so popular (especially the New Testament!)? It's because they follow the same pattern that we all seem to be attracted to without relying on common ideas and unoriginal style.

If I bored you, I'm sorry. Still new here! :o
Post #: 16
7/11/2009 20:34:55   
Bioshock.
Member

I had no idea Eragon was a modern rendition of Star wars! I never though of it that way until you told me, and now that I think about it, it really is. Thanks for that info, I've decided on how I'm going to be building this story around, cliche or not.
DF MQ  Post #: 17
7/11/2009 23:37:21   
Firefly
Lore-ian


 If viewed from a cynical POV, my stories could read: "A [sociopath] ventures forth from [a crappy world] into [another] region of [said cruel world]: [innocents] are there [sacrificed] and an [empty] victory is won: the [sociopath] comes back from this [bloody battle] with [greater knowledge that he refuses] to bestow ... on his fellow man [because he is afraid to have his deluded views of the world shattered].

Sometimes, deconstruction can twist a cliche more than straight avoidance. Heck, that's where I have all my fun. I even had fun writing that above paragraph. ;)
AQ  Post #: 18
7/12/2009 15:49:27   
Bioshock.
Member

To prevent a story from being cliche, read what your writing? Is pretty much what your saying right?
DF MQ  Post #: 19
7/12/2009 21:39:19   
Firefly
Lore-ian


 To write a good story, read what you're writing--but don't get so caught up in others' works that you lose your original spark. Argh, lemme put it this way: Everyone's path will cross someone else's at some point, but no one's path can mirror another's completely. Now go write an idea that you're passionate about, because no idea, no matter how original, can fly if the author doesn't care about it. And if you need help in /developing/ a plot so that it's not cliche, I suggest you read the plot section of Orson Scott Card's How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy (which has advice that applies to all genres). He gives a better rundown of how to develop ideas that I can.
AQ  Post #: 20
7/23/2009 17:47:34   
Crunch
Member

there is nothing in this world that hasn't been done before. there's nothing left that isn't a cliche. nearly every story that's ever been written was just a spin on another story.

It's our job as modern literary artists to make theses cliches something worth reading again

also most humans are simple and can be satisfied with a cliche, there are few people out there that enjoy unhappy endings. try making your protagonist endure incredible tragedy and still win... if that helps.

< Message edited by Crunch -- 7/23/2009 17:51:20 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 21
8/1/2009 4:30:48   
damani
banned


 ....Twilight...

...?
AQ DF  Post #: 22
8/1/2009 7:37:12   
BadHulk
Member

I say this: Better good stolen as bad thoughts ;D
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 23
8/1/2009 8:09:31   
khalim456
Member

Inject your own personality into it. Common and recurring fantasy tropes/cliches/etc do not have to be taboos, but they have to be used with extreme care. Too much done without any originality will come out bland.

But please, if your story is completely cliched, do not fall back on the excuse that "everything has already been done, therefore originality is dead."

This shouldn't be an excuse for your to regurgitate the works of other people, or an excuse to abuse common tropes and cliches, but this fact should actually spur you to work that much harder to steer away, as Firefly stated, from letting your work be caught up in the works of others.

quote:

there is nothing in this world that hasn't been done before. there's nothing left that isn't a cliche. nearly every story that's ever been written was just a spin on another story.


Those are the stories that usually fail... How Eragon made it to the bookshelves in the first place defies me... Oh I forgot, his parents were publishers. :/

quote:

I don't watch Star Wars, so whatever references Paolini had, they flew right over my head. But I notice the similarities between Eragon and LotR. But none of that annoyed me nearly so much as the fact that every one of his characters (with the possible exception of Murtagh) felt like a proxy for their role. So far as I can detect, folks like Eragon and Roran have nearly no personality outside of what the plot requires.


Let me enlighten you...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Christopher Paolini

Characters are born out of necessity.


I think that should sufficiently explain why his characters act like cardboard cutouts.
AQ  Post #: 24
8/3/2009 12:25:16   
Firefly
Lore-ian


 Ouch, that's not a good attitude to have for a writer (at Paolini's statement). However, his parents being publishers is only a tiny slice of why he became famous. 99% of published books don't sell. Bad or good writing, I respect him for his achievements.

But yeah, respecting him doesn't take away my right to criticize him, at least in some aspects. Characters being born out of necessity actually doesn't equal automatically bad characters (though again, it is a bad attitude to have). But even if you created them out of necessity, after interacting with them, putting them through crap, and making them experience the greatest depths of love and hate, you should grow to care about them as you care about a close friend. If the author doesn't even care after all that, why should any reader care?

Of course, Paolini only said the born part and not the uncaring part, so I wasn't exactly directing the above at him. Just at authors in general. If they don't care, I don't care.

And yes, Paolini's bland characters turned me off much more in hindsight than his cliche storyline. I can understand people being attracted to the latter, but I've yet to meet anyone who likes the former. Granted, I've read worse, especially in the YA department... At least Eragon was readable and I didn't exactly regret starting it...
AQ  Post #: 25
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